How Many Mediators?

Brennin said:

We are supposed to do our homework first, and God has already given the answer via scripture. Mary was simply a human being who was blessed to give birth to Jesus Christ; that does not make her "queen of heaven" or "comediatrix."

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I only to let you know that I believe Scripture proves both. Make of it what you will my friend.

Peace.

cajunhillbilly said:

There is one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. Says so in the Bible. There is NO CoMediator. Though I hold Mary in high esteem as the Mother of God ( yes one can call her that since Jesus is God incarnate) that does NOT mean she is a mediator between God and man. I understand the idea of asking the saints to pray for you just as I would ask you to pray for me, but that does NOT make them mediators.

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cajunhillbilly said:

You are not getting it. Scripture certainly teaches that we can and should pray for one another. But that is NOT the same as being a Mediator. The Mediator is one who stands between the accused and the law and pleads for the one accused. Only Jesus does that. He ALONE is the ONE Mediator between God and man. We need no other. Sure we pray for one another, but even those prayers for each other are accepted by God only because of the ONE Mediator, Jesus Christ.

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mont974x4 said:

There is a difference, esepecially from a biblical stand point. The Bible is clear that there is One mediator.

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mont,

You are absolutely right that there is One Mediator between God and man. Saints (on earth or in heaven) are not mediators. They are intercessors, as cajun's quotes explain.

You say that asking Saints to pray for us is necromancy. It is no such thing, as they are very much alive, and are no more separated from the rest of the Body of Christ than those Christians here on earth are separated from us. Christ's Body is One, and Alive, and interceeding for each other.

Mary

Mary of Bethany said:

You are absolutely right that there is One Mediator between God and man. Saints (on earth or in heaven) are not mediators. They are intercessors, as cajun's quotes explain.

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First I must explain there is no "co-mediatrix" in the PROPOSED doctrine and that when it was proposed by the faithful to the Holy Father, John Paul II did not proclaim it as a dogma when he spoke after years of deliberation and descernment about the proposed doctrine on Mary in 1997. He had however used the term Mediatrix 5 times during his Pontificate.

The proposed doctrine states: Co-redemptrix Mediatrix (between us and her Son) and Advocate (also of us all) and its THEOLOGICAL FOUNDATIONS can be found under this link as well as the complete story about said proposed dogma.

Co-means with and though Mary is with Jesus she remains subordinate and the dogma never says otherwise.

Our blessed Theotokos of the first Marian Dogma proclaimed in 431 at Ephesus falls into a different category than the rest of the Saints. I believe this dogma will eventually be proclaimed in the correct form when the Church finds its the right time to do so.

"Everything that the Son asks of the father is granted. Likewise, everything that the mother asks of Her Son is also granted." -St. John Vianney

"Mary is the echo of God. If we say 'Mary', she will answer 'God'." That is why union with Her is always followed by union with God."
-St. Louis de Monfort


Peace.

Mary of Bethany said:

mont,

You are absolutely right that there is One Mediator between God and man. Saints (on earth or in heaven) are not mediators. They are intercessors, as cajun's quotes explain.

You say that asking Saints to pray for us is necromancy. It is no such thing, as they are very much alive, and are no more separated from the rest of the Body of Christ than those Christians here on earth are separated from us. Christ's Body is One, and Alive, and interceeding for each other.

Mary

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Good point, Let me add:

Necromancey would involve having the dead speak to me. We don't seek to initiate a two-way communication. That really WOULD be conjuring up the dead. No, our prayers of request simply rise up to heaven, to "the twenty-four elders.. ..each holding a harp, and.. ..golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8) and which are then offered to God. If THAT ain't intercession, I don't know what is.

I too believe that the saints in heaven intercede for us, but that does NOT make them Medaitors. Only Jesus is the Mediator. There is NO other.

cajunhillbilly said:

I too believe that the saints in heaven intercede for us, but that does NOT make them Medaitors. Only Jesus is the Mediator. There is NO other.

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St. Luois (now in heaven) said:

JoabAnias said:

St. Luois (now in heaven) said:

83. It is more perfect because it supposes greater humility to approach God through a mediator rather than directly by ourselves. Our human nature, as I have just shown, is so spoilt that if we rely on our own work, effort and preparedness to reach God and please him, it is certain that our good works will be tainted and carry little weight with him. They will not induce him to unite himself to us or answer our prayers. God had his reasons for giving us mediators with him. He saw our unworthiness and helplessness and had pity on us. To give us access to his mercies he provided us with powerful advocates, so that to neglect these mediators and to approach his infinite holiness directly and without help from any one of them, is to be lacking in humility and respect towards God who is so great and holy. It would mean that we have less esteem for the King of kings than for an earthly king or ruler, for we would not dare approach an earthly king without a friend to speak for us.

Peace.​

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And that Mediator, that Friend is Jesus. The Scriptures say so. We do NOT need any other Mediator but Jesus.

cajunhillbilly said:

And that Mediator, that Friend is Jesus. The Scriptures say so. We do NOT need any other Mediator but Jesus.

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Oh no, then why do you pray for others at all thus making yourself a mediator?

The communion of the saints is real.

Peace.

I am not a mediator, but an intercessor. There is a difference. My prayers for me or others is only acceptable because of the ONE Medator, the Man Christ Jesus, who is both God and Man. I am not mediating. I am interceeding.

cajunhillbilly said:

I am not a mediator, but an intercessor. There is a difference. My prayers for me or others is only acceptable because of the ONE Medator, the Man Christ Jesus, who is both God and Man. I am not mediating. I am interceeding.

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Exactly.

Mary

cajunhillbilly said:

I am not a mediator, but an intercessor. There is a difference. My prayers for me or others is only acceptable because of the ONE Medator, the Man Christ Jesus, who is both God and Man. I am not mediating. I am interceeding.

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Semantics.

Open a thesaurus lately?

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/intercessor

Your reasoning is the same reasoning we use when we pray for one another and when we ask the saints to pray for us. To say you're not "mediating" but "interceding" by praying shows an ignorance of the English language and demonstrates a false dichotomy, as "mediating" and "interceding" are synonymous.

If there is a difference, in your opinion, please demonstrate as to what that difference is.

Mary of Bethany said:

Exactly.

Mary

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An intercessor is also a mediator with who your speaking to (God) in intercession for.

You can't revise the meaings of words and think its truth.

Ask any court mediator who interceeds between two parties.

Blessed are the peace makers (between us and God) for theirs is the kingdom of God.

When humble, who would dare approach the throne of the King alone?

If your proud then go ahead and rue it later.


Peace.

SpiritMeadow said:

If this bothers you, I'd suggest you just not believe it.

Blessings.

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I don't... but it still bothers me.

PROPHECYKID said:

Where does the bible teach that Mary is in heaven?

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Good point.... Where?

cajunhillbilly said:

I am not a mediator, but an intercessor. There is a difference. My prayers for me or others is only acceptable because of the ONE Medator, the Man Christ Jesus, who is both God and Man. I am not mediating. I am interceeding.

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One may point to 1 Timothy 2:5 as a proof text against anyone praying to Saints in heaven in order for them to pray for us on earth. After all, it does say:

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”.

Doesn’t it say as clear as day here, that no one can get in-between man and God, and by praying to saints, are Catholics violating what it so clearly teaches here? Well, in the first place commons sense tells us that if the Catholic position violates it, so does the Protestant practice of praying for others. After all, Protestants as much as Catholics always intervene by praying not only for themselves, but other people, all the time. When one asks them to pray for them, Do they say to one another “How dare you pray for one another all, there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ!!!” No, Protestants as well as Catholics intercede for others all the time, and it is especially urged in the Bible. When Catholics pray to Saints, they are only asking them to pray for them. Even the immediate context of 1 Timothy 2 shows the need for Christians to pray for others, exactly as Catholicism teaches. Let us look at the immediately preceding verses of 1 Tim. 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So in the immediate context Paul urges people to pray for others. It is good and pleasing to God that people intercede on the behalf of others. So obviously this text does not mean people should not be able to intercede for others. When we pray to Saints, we are only asking them to pray for us. Next, can Saints pray for us in heaven? What does the bible say?

Are there any witnesses in heaven of us? Paul tells us:

Hebrews 12:1 - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

Do we come only to God or do we also come to the assembly of Saints in heaven as well?

Hebrews 12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 12:23 To the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

Paul says yes.
He says we come directly not only to God, but to an assembly of Saints in heaven (The just men made perfect) exactly in the context of Jesus being the mediator!. Are we supposed to ignore them? The Bible says no!! Jesus is indeed the one and unique mediator. However, it is indeed him as a mediator, that makes all other mediation possible.

After all, Jesus is the supreme judge (John 5:27, 9:39; Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1), yet Christians are called to share in Christ’s judgeship. They will be judges in heaven, even judging the angels (Mt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3). Jesus is the king of the universe (Mk. 15:32; 1 Tim. 1:17, 6:15, Rev. 15:3, 17:14, 19:16), but he shares his kingship with all Christians, who in heaven will wear crowns, sit on thrones, and reign as kings alongside Jesus (Rev. 4:4, 10) – but will always be subordinate to him. Notice the promises that God makes (Rev. 3:21):

I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne.

Jesus is the one and only shepherd of the flock the Chruch (John 10:16), yet in a subordinate way he shares his shepherdhood in a subordinate way with others, beginning with Peter (John 21:15-17) and extends it later to others (Eph. 4:11).Pat Madrid, Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine , Basilica Press, 1996, pages 58, 59.

Thus, in the same way that Christ is unique and the source of all these things, he still uses people to in a subordinate way to share in his work.
Do the saints pray in heaven? The book of Revelation tells us:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with THE PRAYERS OF ALL SAINTS upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Obviously they do pray, and as we saw in Hebrews we come to these saints, who we see intercede for us.

Is there more evidence that the Saints are aware of what is going on at earth, and do they ask for justice?:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

So we have further evidence that the Saints in heaven are aware of what is going on in earth, and they specifically pray for things that go on in earth. We must remember that Saints in heaven are not bound by time and space as we are. In eternity, 1 John 3:2 tells us:

Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

There is only one body, the Church. The church is not one church in heaven as opposed to one church on earth. The one church is intimately connected with each other (remember the image of the vine and the branches in John 15). And those in heaven are just men made perfect. As the body is called to love each other, are the saints in heaven, even though they are aware of what is going on in earth, according to scripture just given, careless as to what is going on in the lives of those on earth? Of course not!!! Christ calls perfected people to love the rest of the body. I can be confident that they will intercede for those on earth. What does it profit? James explains:

James 5:16 “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” Those in heaven are perfectly righteous, and their prayers are efficacious. How can one ignore them?

Why can’t I just say, I don’t need those Saints in heaven to pray for us, I can go directly to God. (BTW, Catholics also do pray directly to God.) Why can’t I say I really don’t need the rest of the Church? What does Paul say?

1 Cor. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling? 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
As an eye, I cannot say to the hand, I do not need you. However, those who are against praying to the saints, do exactly that by neglecting the rest of the body of Christ.

Gary51 said:

Good point.... Where?

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In the same place it teaches us sola scriptura.

david01 said:

That must be Revelation 22:18,19. Hmmm. I don't see any mention of Mary being in heaven in these verses.

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It helps not to take things out of historical context, considering that those words were referring to Revelation itself, given that the Bible was compiled much, much later. If you want to argue that line, you can find similar warnings in the OT, long before the NT was written.

Furthermore, you'd have to establish how Revelation 22, or any book of the Bible, for that matter, is telling the truth to begin with. It's easy for us to do it, but not so simple from an SS perspective.

Again, it's in the same place you will find sola scriptura.

david01 said:

That must be Revelation 22:18,19. Hmmm. I don't see any mention of Mary being in heaven in these verses.

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Well, she ain't in hell, that's FOR SURE