How many creationist here think that atheism and evolution go together?

[juvenissun]

Is this the same creation account that has plants being created before the sun?

Exactly. That is an excellent example on how scientific the Biblical Creation Account could be.
Our sun is not the only thing which can emit light. Our universe DO have light without the need of any star.

 

[juvenissun]

That isn't accurate, JUvinessun. There re two contradictory accounts in genesis and neither one fits at all with modern science.

There is NO contradiction AT ALL. If you care, we can go over the verses one by one to see it.

 

[juvenissun]

Wait, are we talking about the biblical creation that doesn't match-up with the fossil record and our observations?
How the hell is that scientific again?

The Bible does present a sequence of creation event. The result could explain the fossil sequence.

 

[juvenissun]

No, juv, it isn't. At this point I think we've hit a dead end. In order to account for creation, we need to allow for miracles, for the breaking of natural law. And if we can allow that in your explanation, then there is absolutely no reason not to allow for it in any explanation. Which means that last thursdayism works.

I don't see any dead end. Except the creation itself, no other miracle is needed in terms of science.
Thursdayism is an exaggerated false idea. If you like to, we can talk about it in detail.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I find nothing inconsistent in that, and what I've said, looking around at Christianity today. Many convinced of their understanding. But no remarkable unity of understanding.

Yes there is unity and agreement. For example, I am a literalist, fundmentalist and a dispensationist. When it comes to religion and science. If we do not have agreement in any of those three (six) areas, then we really don't have a conversation. Even if the only conversation we have is to try to agree on definitions and meanings. Still without God we have nothing. As six is the number of man. Just as there are seven colors and not six and indigo and violet are two different colors.

 

[joshua 1 9]

No, juv, it isn't. At this point I think we've hit a dead end. In order to account for creation, we need to allow for miracles, for the breaking of natural law. And if we can allow that in your explanation, then there is absolutely no reason not to allow for it in any explanation. Which means that last thursdayism works.

Jesus did not come to break the law, He came to establish the law. Every miracle I have ever seen restores and establishes the laws of God. This is a fundamental problem with evolution-ism is they do not understand the fallen condition of creation and the need for a redemption and restoration.

 

[Chris B]

You do not have to stop the fantasy of unicorn creation. But you can not go far with it. It is a logical practicality.

If the Invisible Pink Unicorns did not exist, I would almost find it necessary to invent them, so valuable are they.
Amongst other things they can be held up against a range of arguments for the existence of God. If the argument or proffered evidence would equally well act to support the existence of IPU's, this can usefully be noted.
Similarly with the universal explanation of "God did it". This does then touch on ideas of "creation" and "creator" and what can happen when terms are loaded with familiarity and connotation values.

 

[Laury]

The Bible does present a sequence of creation event. The result could explain the fossil sequence.

Where does it do that and how does it explain the fossils?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Exactly. That is an excellent example on how scientific the Biblical Creation Account could be.

This is a blind assertion. Unless you have some supporting evidence, this is easily dismissed as nonsense.

Our sun is not the only thing which can emit light. Our universe DO have light without the need of any star.

Our sun is the main source of energy. Would you care to present evidence of how plants would originate before the sun as described in the creation myth? You're wrong but I want to see how many mental gymnastics one has to do to in order to reconcile the obvious problems with the creation account.

 

[DerelictJunction]

Evolution studies the change of life. Why shouldn't it include the processes in which life emerged?
Is the study of DNA part of evolution? Why not include the study of DNA which made the first life form?
The answer is very simple: Because that kind of study is too hard and it makes evolution look bad. So, sorry, it is not included.

For the same reason that the study of electricity shouldn't include the origin of the electron. Does the lack of knowledge concerning the origin of the electron make the theories involving electricity look bad?

 

[bhsmte]

Yes there is unity and agreement. For example, I am a literalist, fundmentalist and a dispensationist. When it comes to religion and science. If we do not have agreement in any of those three (six) areas, then we really don't have a conversation. Even if the only conversation we have is to try to agree on definitions and meanings. Still without God we have nothing. As six is the number of man. Just as there are seven colors and not six and indigo and violet are two different colors.

What you have is a round peg and a square hole, with science and the bible.

Dont get me wrong, it is entertaining observing you trying to make them fit.

 

[AV1611VET]

If the Invisible Pink Unicorns did not exist, I would almost find it necessary to invent them, so valuable are they.
Amongst other things they can be held up against a range of arguments for the existence of God.

I disagree.

Show me, for instance, a martyr for the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Or an edifice erected in his name, or a major holiday, or documentation believed to be authentic.

I would be more inclined therefore to believe in Allah, which does have those things, than I would the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

 

[The Cadet]

Show me, for instance, a martyr for the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Maybe IPU believers are just smarter?

 

[Chris B]

I disagree.

Show me, for instance, a martyr for the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Or an edifice erected in his name, or a major holiday, or documentation believed to be authentic.

I would be more inclined therefore to believe in Allah, which does have those things, than I would the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

But I don't take any of these as particular evidences for the existence of a deity or deities.
Clear evidence for humans believing in (varied) deities, certainly.
But we already know that humans are very good at that, to the point of being able to turn almost anything into a religion.

 

[juvenissun]

If the Invisible Pink Unicorns did not exist, I would almost find it necessary to invent them, so valuable are they.

Do you like to develop a theology of Unicorns? What is your first piece of content on that?

 

[juvenissun]

Where does it do that and how does it explain the fossils?

Genesis 1. Life forms are created in sequence (on Day 5 and Day 6)

 

[juvenissun]

This is a blind assertion. Unless you have some supporting evidence, this is easily dismissed as nonsense.
Our sun is the main source of energy. Would you care to present evidence of how plants would originate before the sun as described in the creation myth? You're wrong but I want to see how many mental gymnastics one has to do to in order to reconcile the obvious problems with the creation account.

What I said here is a common knowledge of science. Light existed way way before our Sun.

 

[juvenissun]

For the same reason that the study of electricity shouldn't include the origin of the electron. Does the lack of knowledge concerning the origin of the electron make the theories involving electricity look bad?

In your example, we do need to first understand the function of electrons in atom. The nature of electron Must Be a part of electronics. When we study life, we should understand, for example, the evolution of DNA.

 

[AV1611VET]

Maybe IPU believers are just smarter?

You mean one can escape martyrdom by getting an education?

Right ... and I'm Alfred Neuman.

 

[Hoghead1]

Tell you what, Juvenissun, I'm posting, below, my account of why there are two conflicting accounts. The burden would then fall on you to go through them one by one and see if you can present a solid, rational rebuttal.

1. 
   
   
   
   
   As I have said before, and will say again, I do not think Genesis can be taken as literal, scientific, or historical.
   When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.
   
   
   
   Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scence, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.
   
   
   
   Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled
   
   “The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.
   
   
   
   Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.
   
   
   
   There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.
   
   
   
   There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.
   
   
   
   There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.
   
   
   
   Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.
   
   
   
   P.S. Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos. ;