How many Catholic adherents? How many for each denomination? How many for ALL?

[BobRyan]

According to official statistics, about 21 million people worldwide attended Jehovah's Witnesses' 2024 observance of the Memorial of Christ's death (also termed the Lord's Evening Meal).

Demographics of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are also about 18 millions of Mormons worldwide.

To be "about 20 million people" worldwide is not so extraordinary, for international religious organizations.

Adventists at around 23 or 24 Million are stated to be "the 5th largest" Christian denomination in the world in a Christianity Today 2015 article.

Which means 18 million people for Mormons (while not the top) is a pretty good size. It is larger than the Southern Baptist organization - and I think a lot of people are familiar with that one.

21 Million "Attending" numbers (in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses above) can be a little complicated. Adventist "attending" numbers in some countries outside the USA - are larger than our actual membership. That is the case in areas that are rapidly growing.

 

[BobRyan]

There are some C& E Catholics ie. Christmas & Easter Catholics only. There are some who identify as Catholic but do not practice the faith. 43%? That's an awfully high number.

I think it's pretty hard to get an EXACT number.

Agreed - hard to get an accurate number.

Numbers are complicated by a few thing.
1. Bad system/method of record keeping -- so for example a person counted as Catholic member because of infant baptism 40 years ago, still counted as Catholic even though they have long since become a member of another Christian denomination.

2. Some countries have a "state religion" where all citizens are counted as Catholic even if they are not.

AI said: "In countries where Catholicism is the state religion, such as Malta, Vatican City, and Monaco, citizens are often considered members of the Church by virtue of their citizenship. While some individuals may not actively practice their faith, their membership is generally recognized and considered part of the Church's numerical data."

But for my purposes on this thread - counting adherents/members I don't care if Catholic numbers include C&E as long as that person considers him/her self to be a Catholic.

 

[RileyG]

you are the sort of person that we would like to see for that entire 1.4 B number they are giving out. IT would be 100% accurate in that case.

LOL! Again, I’m not sure how accurate it is.

 

[RileyG]

Agreed - hard to get an accurate number.

Numbers are complicated by a few thing.
1. Bad system/method of record keeping -- so for example a person counted as Catholic member because of infant baptism 40 years ago, still counted as Catholic even though they have long since become a member of another Christian denomination.

2. Some countries have a "state religion" where all citizens are counted as Catholic even if they are not.

AI said: "In countries where Catholicism is the state religion, such as Malta, Vatican City, and Monaco, citizens are often considered members of the Church by virtue of their citizenship. While some individuals may not actively practice their faith, their membership is generally recognized and considered part of the Church's numerical data."

But for my purposes on this thread - counting adherents/members I don't care if Catholic numbers include C&E as long as that person considers him/her self to be a Catholic.

That’s very true.

 

[trophy33]

Adventists at around 23 or 24 Million are stated to be "the 5th largest" Christian denomination in the world in a Christianity Today 2015 article.

Sounds like some nonsense.

Catholic Church: ~1.4 billion members.

Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, about 644 million adherents globally.

Eastern Orthodox Church approximately 220 to 260 million baptized members.

Anglican Communion, with approximately 97 million members worldwide.

Baptist churches, totaling around 84 million members globally.

United and Uniting Churches, about 78 million members.

Presbyterians, Reformed, and Congregational churches, roughly 70 million members.

Lutheran churches, close to 70 million members.

Oriental Orthodox Churches have about 50 million members worldwide.

Methodist and Holiness movement churches, around 46 million members.

Also, many smaller, rather local denominations combine various protestant traditions, so they could partially be also counted to those, even though they have no official connection to for example the Lutheran church or the Reformed churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

yeah I was not looking for that. I am just looking at the 1.4B number itself because if that number is over-inflating the number of people today who identify as Catholic by 40% or more that is one problem. If over half of that 40% are actually active members of other Christian denominations and so they show up multiple times in the total count.. well the numbers become less useful.

Well, likewise the number of Adventists is also over-inflated by a large degree, since there are large numbers of former Adventists who are now unchurched or who have converted to other denominations such as Orthodoxy.

If we assume that the rate of attrition is comparable across all denominations, the Roman Catholics still outnumber other denominations to the same extent.

Of course in the case of Orthodoxy this is not applicable - Orthodoxy is unique among major denominations in that we are converting more people than leave the church due to attrition, so our reported numbers are now, if anything, too small. Additionally, in Islamic and Hindu majority countries, the number of Orthodox Christians is consistently under-reported by the Muslims as a means of marginalization.

Based on the extremely high birth rate among Syriac, Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, I would estimate that there are at least 10 million more Oriental Orthodox Christians than are reported.

Additionally, the number of Roman Catholics is also likely lower than it should be, because of the fast reproductive rate and also the growth rate of the RCC in Africa and Asia. It is in Africa and Asia where the Catholics exude their traditional values, with the two most traditional Catholic bishops I am aware of being Cardinal Sarah and Bishop Athanasius Schneider, from the German population in Kazakhstan (who have the legal right to return to Germany but have opted to remain in Kazakhstan because of the life they built for themselves after being forcibly relocated there by Stalin, and because Kazakhstan is a more conservative country that stresses traditional family values, and the German population enjoys good economic opportunities; likewise, many Russian Orthodox Christians have remained in the former Central Asian states rather than emigrating to Russia or to the West).

 

[The Liturgist]

Sounds like some nonsense.

Catholic Church: ~1.4 billion members.

Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, about 644 million adherents globally.

Eastern Orthodox Church approximately 220 to 260 million baptized members.

Anglican Communion, with approximately 97 million members worldwide.

Baptist churches, totaling around 84 million members globally.

United and Uniting Churches, about 78 million members.

Presbyterians, Reformed, and Congregational churches, roughly 70 million members.

Lutheran churches, close to 70 million members.

Oriental Orthodox Churches have about 50 million members worldwide.

Methodist and Holiness movement churches, around 46 million members.

Also, many smaller, rather local denominations combine various protestant traditions, so they could partially be also counted to those, even though they have no official connection to for example the Lutheran church or the Reformed churches.

In terms of denominational size, the largest integral denominations, defined as churches churches that are actually in communion with each other, are the Roman Catholics, followed by the Eastern Orthodox, followed by the Anglicans, followed by the Lutherans (who actually outnumber all Reformed Christians by about 10 million), followed by the Oriental Orthodox.

 

[trophy33]

In terms of denominational size, the largest integral denominations, defined as churches churches that are actually in communion with each other, are the Roman Catholics, followed by the Eastern Orthodox, followed by the Anglicans, followed by the Lutherans (who actually outnumber all Reformed Christians by about 10 million), followed by the Oriental Orthodox.

Based purely on numbers, it is in the order I listed, though. Pentecostals and Charismatics have significantly more members than the churches you named.

 

[The Liturgist]

Based purely on numbers, it is in the order I listed, though. Pentecostals and Charismatics have significantly more members than the churches you named.

I haven’t seen your sources, but the sources I work on are on the basis of individual denominations, defined as churches in communion, rather than entire groups of the faithful. That said I would not be surprised if the total membership of the Pentecostal and Charismatic denominations was that high, but that would count a large number of different denominations, some of which, like the Oneness Pentecostals and the Snake Handling Pentecostals, are either heretical, in the case of the Oneness Pentecostals (they reject the Trinity, and thus according to the ChristianForums statement of faith they are not welcome to post in our theology forums), or regarded in the case of the Snake Handling Pentecostals of Appalachia as engaging in a very dangerous practice that should be discouraged. Other Pentecostal denominations seem lovely to me. But there are a lot of them, and they can vary widely.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I haven’t seen your sources, but the sources I work on are on the basis of individual denominations, defined as churches in communion, rather than entire groups of the faithful. That said I would not be surprised if the total membership of the Pentecostal and Charismatic denominations was that high, but that would count a large number of different denominations, some of which, like the Oneness Pentecostals and the Snake Handling Pentecostals, are either heretical, in the case of the Oneness Pentecostals (they reject the Trinity, and thus according to the ChristianForums statement of faith they are not welcome to post in our theology forums), or regarded in the case of the Snake Handling Pentecostals of Appalachia as engaging in a very dangerous practice that should be discouraged. Other Pentecostal denominations seem lovely to me. But there are a lot of them, and they can vary widely.

It's possible that my Catholic parish and members would be counted in that 'Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, about 644 million adherents globally' number. Just sayin'. Depends on how they define their terms.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, likewise the number of Adventists is also over-inflated by a large degree, since there are large numbers of former Adventists who are now unchurched or who have converted to other denominations such as Orthodoxy.

sadlly that is not as true as you might like to imagine. Our denomination is known for reviewing its records and removing names as it is found that those members no longer attend or have passed away.

This idea is probably new to you given your background - so I understand how you might be confused on that point.

If we assume that the rate of attrition is comparable across all denominations, the Roman Catholics still outnumber other denominations to the same extent.

IT is not true that all denominations have the same lack of concern for the accuracy of that number as we find in the "record-and-forget" method used by some groups.

Of course in the case of Orthodoxy this is not applicable - Orthodoxy is unique among major denominations in that we are converting more people than leave the church due to attrition, so our reported numbers are now, if anything, too small.

How do you know? Do you have a bunch of Baptist, Catholic, Adventist , Methodist "Members" on your books that you never took off the books?

If so - what mechanism are you using to accomplish that result?

 

[The Liturgist]

How do you know? Do you have a bunch of Baptist, Catholic, Adventist , Methodist "Members" on your books that you never took off the books?

No. We prioritize accurate record-keeping and keep track of church attendance separately from baptisms, which Roman Catholics do also. And from the attendance figures and the conversion figures, we know that we are clearing attrition and growing and indeed we would be growing based on conversion alone.

This is presumably why we have had several instances where people from other denominations who share an ethnic identity with the founders of a parish will show up to try to poach our members, which is very amusing since most of our parishes are now multi-ethnic and at an ever increasing number converts outnumber cradle orthodox, except for the Middle Eastern churches as the Copts, Syriacs and Antiochians have a very high birthrate, which is good, given they are the victims of active and ongoing genocides.

But don’t take my word for it - go to The Ancient Way forum and ask (actually by the way the Eastern Orthodox are the only denomination on ChristianForums that permits non-Orthodox to debate us, in the St. Justin Martyr’s Hall subforum).

 

[The Liturgist]

It's possible that my Catholic parish and members would be counted in that 'Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, about 644 million adherents globally' number. Just sayin'. Depends on how they define their terms.

Very possible, since there’s a good likelihood they aren’t removing former members from their books either. The UMC for example still thought my mother was a member over a decade after she left in protest to the horrible music and liberal theology. And your denomination’s more traditional parishes have been seeing an uptick as well.

The local Traditional Latin Mass parish is the second most crowded church in the county after the Coptic Orthodox church, where the Divine Liturgy reminds me of the Paris Metro at rush hour, but the Copts at least are getting a nice new church consecrated this weekend, and God willing, I will be there, as I haven’t seen Metropolitan Serapion in over a decade, when he was still a bishop (but I thought he was a Metropolitan and inadvertently referred to him as “your Eminence”, and he was promoted a few months later, so perhaps this time I should call him “your holiness” and he might wind up becoming the next Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria).

 

[chevyontheriver]

Very possible, since there’s a good likelihood they aren’t removing former members from their books either. The UMC for example still thought my mother was a member over a decade after she left in protest to the horrible music and liberal theology. And your denomination’s more traditional parishes have been seeing an uptick as well.

Actually I was referring to how my parish leans charismatic. So they might lump me in with the Oneness Pentecostals to get that 644 million number of 'Pentecostal and Charismatic'. Who knows .

 

[RileyG]

Actually I was referring to how my parish leans charismatic. So they might lump me in with the Oneness Pentecostals to get that 644 million number of 'Pentecostal and Charismatic'. Who knows .

Not to mention charismatic can include MANY denominations. There exists Charismatic Anglicans, Charismatic Episcopalians, Charismatic Lutherans et al, believe it or not.

 

[RileyG]

It's possible that my Catholic parish and members would be counted in that 'Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, about 644 million adherents globally' number. Just sayin'. Depends on how they define their terms.

Also, not all Pentecostal Churches recognize each other. Some Pentecostals, such as the United Pentecostal Holiness Church, are non-trinitarian and aren't affiliated with other Pentecostals, such as the Assembly of God Church.

There are also other Holiness Churches that can historically be considered Wesleyan etc. They might fall under the Wesleyan umbrella (Methodist, Church of the Nazarene, etc).

ALSO ALSO, not to mention Independent Catholic Churches who are not in communion with the Pope. They include the sedevacantist Churches, Polish National Catholic Church, Liberal Catholic Church, Ecumenical Catholic Church etc

I could go on and on.

 

[BobRyan]

No. We prioritize accurate record-keeping and keep track of church attendance separately from baptisms, which Roman Catholics do also. And from the attendance figures and the conversion figures, we know that we are clearing attrition

So you drop names from your books because someone is no longer attending and you think Catholics do the same when they find that 30 years after an infant baptism the person is not attending church any more?

Seriously? that is what you think we might believe when in fact we meet former catholics all the time that claim that is not what is going on.

This is presumably why we have had several instances where people from other denominations who share an ethnic identity with the founders of a parish will show up to try to poach our members

what in the world does ethnicity have to do with this topic?

So then when you drop the name of someone baptized as an infant but not attending any longer how do you know that they are not simply attending some other Orthodox church and you have dropped them by mistake?

IT appears that this topic somewhat new to you by your response.

=====================================
AI says this about the Orthodox church and the accuracy of its membership numbers

"Orthodox Church membership records are generally accurate for parish-level records, such as baptisms and marriages, but may be less reliable for overall global membership counts. Parish records are typically maintained in parish registry books and can be used to verify individuals' affiliation with a specific church. However, estimating the total number of Orthodox Christians worldwide is challenging due to factors like mobility, different definitions of "member," and data collection difficulties in some regions"

Even then - it is "baptisms" and "Marriages" the fact that they exist rather than the fact that the person is or is not still married or that they are still identifying as Orthodox (wherever they are)

Catholic and Orthodox practice appears to treat the question as
"how many people have ever joined the Orthodox church" rather than "how many still identify as Orthodox"

 

[The Liturgist]

says this about the Orthodox church and the accuracy of its membership numbers

Which AI?

Catholic and Orthodox practice appears to treat the question as
"how many people have ever joined the Orthodox church" rather than "how many still identify as Orthodox"

In the case of the Orthodox, that’s simply untrue. Because we are an episcopal church in terms of polity, we have to know how many people attend each parish or mission and what their status is (inquirer, catechumen, communicant) because that is used to determine resource allocations to that parish, with smaller parishes and missions getting monastic clergy or volunteers, and married clergy who are available full time going to larger parishes, and some parishes requiring multiple presbyters. Thus, careful records are kept.

So then when you drop the name of someone baptized as an infant but not attending any longer how do you know that they are not simply attending some other Orthodox church and you have dropped them by mistake?

Forgive me, but this statement indicates that you have no idea how the Orthodox Church operates.

So, the aforementioned records I mentioned are kept by individual churches, but in the case of the diaspora, which is the only place where you have numerous overlapping jurisdictions, the Orthodox Churches share information and coordinate so that if someone stops attending, for example, the OCA, and starts attending a different jurisdiction like ROCOR or GoArch, that movement will be tracked. In the US, all Orthodox churches are members of either the Society of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North America for the Eastern Orthodoxy or the Society of Canonical Oriental Orthodox Churches for the Oriental Orthodox,. Although in the case of the Oriental Orthodox, it is extremely unusual for someone to move between churches, because each of the Oriental Orthodox has a different liturgical rite; the Coptic Orthodox have one, the Syriac Orthodox another, the Armenians yet another, and the OCA another still; practically speaking, it would only likely occur due to marriage, but such marriages will nonetheless be tracked.

Likewise if someone moves from one diocese to another in the same church.

Where the numbers are inaccurate is in certain Islamic states, in terms of the numbers officially published by the government, which are inconsistent with the church numbers - the Muslims have a vested interest in showing there are fewer Orthodox Christians than is actually the case in order to conceal their ongoing genocides and ethnic cleansing against us, and they also do this to other Christian denominations such as Assyrian Church of the East, Protestant denominations in Pakistan, and the Eastern Catholic denominations, and probably to your church if you have any parishes in places like Syria or Pakistan.

says this about the Orthodox church and the accuracy of its membership numbers

Appeal to unqualified authority fallacy, and I note you also don’t say which AI or what the exact prompt you supplied it was. As a systems programmer and software engineer who has been working with LLMs since 2020, I can’t begin to emphasize how important it is that we know not only which AI model said that, but also see the entire conversational history and also your global memory configuration and preferences in order to assess the reliability of that information, to see if the answer is repeatable. Otherwise, its literally semantically equivalent to “someone said” without any information on who said it or in what context. But even then, AI can be wrong, with the accuracy and knowledge of the models varying greatly, so it would still be an appeal to unqualified authority.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
Catholic and Orthodox practice appears to treat the question as
"how many people have ever joined the Orthodox church" rather than "how many still identify as Orthodox"

In the case of the Orthodox, that’s simply untrue. Because we are an episcopal church in terms of polity, we have to know how many people attend each parish or mission and what their status is (inquirer, catechumen, communicant) because that is used to determine resource allocations to that parish, with smaller parishes and missions getting monastic clergy or volunteers, and married clergy who are available full time going to larger parishes, and some parishes requiring multiple presbyters. Thus, careful records are kept

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

So, the aforementioned records I mentioned are kept by individual churches, but in the case of the diaspora, which is the only place where you have numerous overlapping jurisdictions, the Orthodox Churches share information and coordinate so that if someone stops attending, for example, the OCA, and starts attending a different jurisdiction like ROCOR or GoArch, that movement will be tracked. In the US, all Orthodox churches are members of either the Society of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North America for the Eastern Orthodoxy or the Society of Canonical Oriental Orthodox Churches for the Oriental Orthodox,.

And when they join the Methodist/Baptist/evangelical church? Which of the Orthodox jurisdictions tracks that and drops the name?
When they move away, stop attending and then are deceased - Which of the Orthodox jurisdictions tracks that and drops the name?

Nothing in your response admits to any case at all where the name is dropped from your membership list, either because the person is now deceased, or no longer identifies as Orthodox, has joined some other denomination etc.