How Many Are There?

All4Christ said:

I'm not sure if you are or are not being sarcastic...but...

Certainly, truth is not relative. If there are contradictory beliefs, then at least one of them isn't correct (though there may be multiple aspects to doctrine that complement each other rather than contradict, such as some of the soteriological models).

So what makes one person understand the Holy Spirit correctly while others apparently don't understand it correctly?

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The one who is embraced by the Holy Spirit understands what the Holy Spirit speaks. It is the Holy Spirit who facilitates that understanding.

introverteen said:

Maybe we can't but it's a well meaning place for someone to start out to understand the faith and boundaries of the relationship they're entering into.

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Where did this idea come from ? (I don't believe it's in the Bible, and I don't think its true.)

Winken said:

The one who is embraced by the Holy Spirit understands what the Holy Spirit speaks. It is the Holy Spirit who facilitates that understanding.

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...and yet many Christians try to follow God and be embraced by the Holy Spirit, but they come up with different conclusions.

Based on your response, that would mean that the vast majority of Christians aren't embraced by the Holy Spirit. Personally, I wouldn't agree with that conclusion - but that is the logical outcome of your statement.

All4Christ said:

...and yet many Christians try to follow God and be embraced by the Holy Spirit, but they come up with different conclusions.

Based on your response, that would mean that the vast majority of Christians aren't embraced by the Holy Spirit. Personally, I wouldn't agree with that conclusion - but that is the logical outcome of your statement.

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Replying to just this post, without seeing the previous posts at all (or not remembering them at this moment anyway) , and not even 'knowing' what section this is in (i.e. delete if desired)
it can be shown clearly through and from Scripture
.....
well, accurateliy taught truth I mean, from Scripture -
not "shown" to many in the sense that "shown" is understood or accepted -
......
That most all the world is today, as usual, deceived ,
and will not become un-deceived,
except for those YHWH says in Scripture will be saved
as He has always known, planned, and carried out His Plan of Salvation for as many as love Him, who are called according to His Purpose in Christ Jesus.

All4Christ said:

...and yet many Christians try to follow God and be embraced by the Holy Spirit, but they come up with different conclusions.

Based on your response, that would mean that the vast majority of Christians aren't embraced by the Holy Spirit. Personally, I wouldn't agree with that conclusion - but that is the logical outcome of your statement.

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No, that is illogical, the exact opposite of my statement. That is at the center of "Holy Spirit" presence in each life.

All authentic Christians are embraced by the Holy Spirit. The "trying" comes afterwards, for those who drift away from the interpretation and application of the Holy Spirit, looking to their own, personal insights. The "trying" also comes from those who have never experienced salvation by Grace through Faith; they aren't Christians to begin with. These two options are the ones who come up with different conclusions.

What is the Plan of Salvation? Is it man-made opinions? Is it the interpretations mulled over by theologians who discussed life and eternity? Is it those who write beyond the Biblical context, presenting new viewpoints? Is it those who announce "new" interpretations and applications today?

No.

We cannot venture outside of the context presented Biblically. Eternal security is presented there, not of private interpretations, not of works or efforts to sustain eternal life.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Replying to just this post, without seeing the previous posts at all (or not remembering them at this moment anyway) , and not even 'knowing' what section this is in (i.e. delete if desired)
it can be shown clearly through and from Scripture
.....
well, accurateliy taught truth I mean, from Scripture -
not "shown" to many in the sense that "shown" is understood or accepted -
......
That most all the world is today, as usual, deceived ,
and will not become un-deceived,
except for those YHWH says in Scripture will be saved
as He has always known, planned, and carried out His Plan of Salvation for as many as love Him, who are called according to His Purpose in Christ Jesus.

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Accurately taught truth! According to who?

Accurately taught truth is relative to the faith in which you formed. Being formed as part of a High Church of England my lens to the truth is that of an Anglican - Anglo Catholic and by your signature yours is the lens of an Anabaptist. So please don't come in here and try and tell others yours is the accurately taught truth...

gordonhooker said:

Accurately taught truth! According to who?

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YHWH
" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"

Always perfectly in harmony with all of YHWH'S WORD. Never contradictory, never instead of, never adding to nor taking away from.

Thus, by YHWH'S WORD (SCRIPTURE), proven, tested and verified.

I request that everyone read the Statement of Purpose for this forum if they haven't done so before now. Please remember what forum you are in. It is YOUR responsibility to do this. It is not acceptable to post and say we can delete it if it is wrong, just so you don't have to see which forum you are posting in.

I am posting this unofficially right now, since I am involved in this thread. However, this is a rule of all forums, especially in Traditional Theology.

This is a very strange way to look at things, since the Bible itself tells us that all scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16). It seems, then, that this idea of distilling from it what is 'essential' (as opposed to...what? The parts where God is just sort of off down some rabbit trail for the day?) is taking a lot away from it, which is not a good idea when all of it is profitable for doctrine, and that's precisely the question you are trying to answer.

When you go to the doctor and they tell you what you need to do to be healthy, the proper response is not "Yes, fine, but which of these things that you've told me to do are the ones that I really need to do?" The same is true of the Physician of our souls. Christ may have said that upon two commandments hang all of the law (Matthew 22:40), but He also said to the Pharisees that these too you should have done without leaving the others undone (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42), so we ought not simply exchange one for the other as though they are in conflict when both commands are given by the same Lord and Savior.

dzheremi said:

This is a very strange way to look at things, since the Bible itself tells us that all scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16). It seems, then, that this idea of distilling from it what is 'essential' (as opposed to...what? The parts where God is just sort of off down some rabbit trail for the day?) is taking a lot away from it, which is not a good idea when all of it is profitable for doctrine, and that's precisely the question you are trying to answer.

When you go to the doctor and they tell you what you need to do to be healthy, the proper response is not "Yes, fine, but which of these things that you've told me to do are the ones that I really need to do?" The same is true of the Physician of our souls. Christ may have said that upon two commandments hang all of the law (Matthew 22:40), but He also said to the Pharisees that these too you should have done without leaving the others undone (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42), so we ought not simply exchange one for the other as though they are in conflict when both commands are given by the same Lord and Savior.

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I think there's the additional problem, which I pointed out earlier in this thread, that trying to treat the Bible as a collection of discrete, propositional doctrines is a problematic way of looking at the Bible. The Bible isn't a collection of "teachings", that is, a collection of theological propositions; the Bible is a collection of many different writings covering a diverse number of literary genres, and rarely are they written for the purpose of distilling discrete little nuggets of theological proposition--instead they convey narrative, prayers, praise, discourse and all of this is for our benefit. It is through the process of exegeting Scripture, making sure to understand what the text is, in fact, saying that we can then address how its meaning can be extracted, extrapolated, and applied to ourselves. So it's simply impossible to try and come up with a "list" of doctrines in Scripture; because the teaching in and of Scripture is dynamic and can frequently be applied in different ways in different circumstances.

In which case I think the medical analogy works tremendously, because the application of medicine, salves, bandages (etc) are context specific: one doesn't put a bandage on their leg when they have a wound in their arm, they apply the bandage to their arm.

-CryptoLutheran

dzheremi said:

This is a very strange way to look at things, since the Bible itself tells us that all scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16). It seems, then, that this idea of distilling from it what is 'essential' (as opposed to...what? The parts where God is just sort of off down some rabbit trail for the day?) is taking a lot away from it, which is not a good idea when all of it is profitable for doctrine, and that's precisely the question you are trying to answer.

When you go to the doctor and they tell you what you need to do to be healthy, the proper response is not "Yes, fine, but which of these things that you've told me to do are the ones that I really need to do?" The same is true of the Physician of our souls. Christ may have said that upon two commandments hang all of the law (Matthew 22:40), but He also said to the Pharisees that these too you should have done without leaving the others undone (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42), so we ought not simply exchange one for the other as though they are in conflict when both commands are given by the same Lord and Savior.

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IMHO, understanding that there is a set of essentials that binds and defines all Christians is a useful idea and discussion (although for many of us it shouldn't require discussion).

Simply because all Scripture is useful doesn't mean that all Scripture is equally useful. Also, we are left with the obvious fact that various groups, and individuals, disagree with regard to the meaning of various ideas in Scripture.
One approach is to say that everyone other than the Church to which I belong is wrong. Another is to understand that we can agree on essentials and have some tolerance/charity on other doctrines.