How many 2024 predictions have already failed? How many HAVE to fail before people realise?

[Oseas]

Probably not a bad idea to keep an eye on that Rope a Pope deal. But I still think the 70 week started already, and we're in it. And the composite beast and the Antichrist were already just here. Their 42 months of authority ran out around the time Roe/Wade was overturned. That was one of their crowning achievements. The three froglike demons are already out gathering the kings of the earth for that great battle of God Almighty.
So I tend to think the game is afoot old boy. I think the prophetic time periods are paining us into a corner.
I'm on red alert.
Steady as she goes #1.

OK. JESUS said to the Jews: Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up-John 2:19 combined with Hosea 6:1-2:->1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up.
2 After two Days will He revive us: in the third Day(THIS DAY ARRIVED) He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Hebrews 1:1-3
1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days (last two Days or 2000 years) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of the Person of GOD, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Millennial Teaching ---> posts #49-50

Around 2000 years ago, Paul Apostle prophesied, saying to the Church of Thessalonians: 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4:
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of Christ is at hand. (that is the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium)

3Let no man deceive you by any means:for that Day shall not come,except there come a falling away first,and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth(will oppose) and (will) exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God (will) sitteth in the temple of God(in Jerusalem), shewing himself that he is God.

The time calls us to be prepared for the battle: Revelation 16:13-15: -->15 - The Lord warned: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

[tailgator]

Because you think there is still more prophecy to be fulfilled in the future.
Because you think Revelation is set 'in the future'.
Revelation is to John's generation, about John's generation - and therefore meaningful to all Christians across the last 2000 years precisely because John wrote it to his generation! It teaches us how to think theologically about nature in chaos and natural disasters, tyrants mocking God and persecuting Christians, and how to stay patiently trusting in the Lord - even to persecution and execution - while we wait on the gospel PROMISE that he will return.

That is - I don't think there's a single prophecy left to be fulfilled. They were all fulfilled in Jesus death and resurrection - but in 'eschatological tension' - also called Inaugurated Eschatology. https://www.theopedia.com/inaugurated-eschatology

The only thing remaining is Judgement Day - which will happen as a complete surprise, like the days of Noah (Matt 24) - with everyone saying “Peace, peace” and making plans for the future. Marrying. Partying. And then sudden destruction! The Lord Returns on Judgement Day! As the Reformation Study Bible says of Matt: “24:36 no one knows. This remains true, and attempts to predict the time of the end are effectively stopped by it.” Matt 24:36 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

Just to make sure we get the point - Jesus follows up with some parables that spill over into Matt 24. Jesus will return like:-
* the days of Noah,
* a thief in the night,
* a Master who catches the wicked servant in his guilt and executes him;
* a Bridegroom who arrives to the banquet hall and locks out the maidens who were not prepared;
* a wealthy investor who expects a return but takes all the gold from the lazy investor,
* then the final parable is how Jesus sudden and utterly unpredictable return will be as a Judge on his mighty throne and with his angels. It’s Judgement Day for all eternity. Do not go through extra tribulations or 1000 years - do not collect $200.

Indeed, Paul writes in 1 Thess 5 that we cannot know about dates and times because the Lord said he would return like a thief in the night. What are we to do instead? We are to put on “faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet” - and live as people of the day.

Ok,you say judgement day comes as a thief in the night.
Revelation shows the thief in the night comes in

revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


Now you say you don't believe there are any events in prophecy that take place before Jesus comes as a thief .Yet the same chapter lists events which take place before Jesus comes as a thief. Since you say these events have already been fulfilled,can you give us a list of the dates these things were fulfilled and how they were fulfilled.Please provide name of the people they affected and their testimony of these events
--------------------------------

What year was the Euphrates river dried up to make way for the kings of the east to go to Armegeddon?

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

----------------------------------------
What year and what location were the waters turned to blood and the people were forced to drink blood?

Revelation 16
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


-----------------------------------------------


Which sea turned to blood killing everything in that sea?


Revelation 16
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


----------------------------------------------
What year did the the people who had taken the mark of the beast recieve a painful sore?Also who were the people which received that sore?Please provide testimony from witnesses who saw this.



Revelation 16

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


--------------------------------------



Since you say all these things are history ,then you shouldn't have any problem providing proof that all these things have been fulfilled already.Prease provide reliable news sources which covered these events if you are able.




Thank you

 

[Michu]

At least they are watching, what about you?

I'm not a fan of absolut date setting but I have no problem discussing possible dates. To me it's baffling that a christian doesn't get that parts of the body of christ long for the unification, so much so that they even look under stones. But instead decides to mock them.

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Ephesians 1:22-23
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[eclipsenow]

Ok,you say judgement day comes as a thief in the night.
Revelation shows the thief in the night comes in

revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


Now you say you don't believe there are any events in prophecy that take place before Jesus comes as a thief .Yet the same chapter lists events which take place before Jesus comes as a thief. Since you say these events have already been fulfilled,can you give us a list of the dates these things were fulfilled and how they were fulfilled.Please provide name of the people they affected and their testimony of these events
--------------------------------

What year was the Euphrates river dried up to make way for the kings of the east to go to Armegeddon?

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

----------------------------------------
What year and what location were the waters turned to blood and the people were forced to drink blood?

Revelation 16
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


-----------------------------------------------


Which sea turned to blood killing everything in that sea?


Revelation 16
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


----------------------------------------------
What year did the the people who had taken the mark of the beast recieve a painful sore?Also who were the people which received that sore?Please provide testimony from witnesses who saw this.



Revelation 16

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


--------------------------------------



Since you say all these things are history ,then you shouldn't have any problem providing proof that all these things have been fulfilled already.Prease provide reliable news sources which covered these events if you are able.




Thank you

So the assumption many futurists make is that reading the less clear parts of scripture should somehow guide the clear.
Amils assume the clear should guide the unclear.

Also - Amils have arrived at their position by reading some of the other Apocalyptic Symbolism of the time. Did you know it was a genre used between 200 BC to 200 AD? Have you read any of the other Apocalyptic literature from Jewish communities, etc?

Here is a great guide to all this with some of the world's leading professors in this - and Dr John Dickson (the host of the show) is also a bit of an expert in it himself. (He wrote "666 and all that" with a mate of mine.) Although scholars I respect a tiny bit more give a different answer about the Millennium and Armageddon - the overall general thrust of the argument is in tune with this.

Ps: You should subscribe to Undeceptions podcast - as it covers a whole range of topics Christians should have on hand - it's a great apologetics podcast.

World's End

Undeceptions Episode 34: Christianity has plenty to say the world's end. However, our cultural narrative has become increasingly apocalyptic.

undeceptions.com

 

[tailgator]

So the assumption many futurists make is that reading the less clear parts of scripture should somehow guide the clear.
Amils assume the clear should guide the unclear.

Also - Amils have arrived at their position by reading some of the other Apocalyptic Symbolism of the time. Did you know it was a genre used between 200 BC to 200 AD? Have you read any of the other Apocalyptic literature from Jewish communities, etc?

Here is a great guide to all this with some of the world's leading professors in this - and Dr John Dickson (the host of the show) is also a bit of an expert in it himself. (He wrote "666 and all that" with a mate of mine.) Although scholars I respect a tiny bit more give a different answer about the Millennium and Armageddon - the overall general thrust of the argument is in tune with this.

Ps: You should subscribe to Undeceptions podcast - as it covers a whole range of topics Christians should have on hand - it's a great apologetics podcast.

World's End

Undeceptions Episode 34: Christianity has plenty to say the world's end. However, our cultural narrative has become increasingly apocalyptic.

undeceptions.com

You didn't answer a single question.

For someone who has all the answers you sure have gotten quite all the sudden.
Sure you don't want to try to answer just one of my questions?It should be easy since you say they are all.history.

 

[tailgator]

So the assumption many futurists make is that reading the less clear parts of scripture should somehow guide the clear.
Amils assume the clear should guide the unclear.

Also - Amils have arrived at their position by reading some of the other Apocalyptic Symbolism of the time. Did you know it was a genre used between 200 BC to 200 AD? Have you read any of the other Apocalyptic literature from Jewish communities, etc?

Here is a great guide to all this with some of the world's leading professors in this - and Dr John Dickson (the host of the show) is also a bit of an expert in it himself. (He wrote "666 and all that" with a mate of mine.) Although scholars I respect a tiny bit more give a different answer about the Millennium and Armageddon - the overall general thrust of the argument is in tune with this.

Ps: You should subscribe to Undeceptions podcast - as it covers a whole range of topics Christians should have on hand - it's a great apologetics podcast.

World's End

Undeceptions Episode 34: Christianity has plenty to say the world's end. However, our cultural narrative has become increasingly apocalyptic.

undeceptions.com

Let's try again,shall we.

Ok,you say judgement day comes as a thief in the night.
Revelation shows the thief in the night comes in

revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


Now you say you don't believe there are any events in prophecy that take place before Jesus comes as a thief .Yet the same chapter lists events which take place before Jesus comes as a thief. Since you say these events have already been fulfilled,can you give us a list of the dates these things were fulfilled and how they were fulfilled.Please provide name of the people they affected and their testimony of these events
--------------------------------

What year was the Euphrates river dried up to make way for the kings of the east to go to Armegeddon?

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

----------------------------------------
What year and what location were the waters turned to blood and the people were forced to drink blood?

Revelation 16
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


-----------------------------------------------


Which sea turned to blood killing everything in that sea?


Revelation 16
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


----------------------------------------------
What year did the the people who had taken the mark of the beast recieve a painful sore?Also who were the people which received that sore?Please provide testimony from witnesses who saw this.



Revelation 16

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


--------------------------------------



Since you say all these things are history ,then you shouldn't have any problem providing proof that all these things have been fulfilled already.Prease provide reliable news sources which covered these events if you are able.




Thank you

 

[eclipsenow]

Since you say all these things are history ,then you shouldn't have any problem providing proof that all these things have been fulfilled already.Prease provide reliable news sources which covered these events if you are able.




Thank you

ALL will be answered IF you:-

Listen to Undeceptions for some background. It's a FUN podcast - professionally produced - and really is one of the best Christian podcasts - even if you completely disagree with their conclusions on this particular episode you should subscribe to it.

THEN with that background, every detail will be addressed in the following videos. Do not be deceived by the simplistic storytelling structure of these videos! This guy has a Phd in Jewish Apocalyptic Symbolism. He even corrected a few (tiny) interpretative errors in some of my favourite theologians! People I know personally. (It was only in 1 or 2 scenes in Revelation.) You might feel like you're back in Sunday School because of the style - but if you take it in - it's actually quite deep.

They're only about 11 minutes each.

 

[tailgator]

ALL will be answered IF you:-

Listen to Undeceptions for some background. It's a FUN podcast - professionally produced - and really is one of the best Christian podcasts - even if you completely disagree with their conclusions on this particular episode you should subscribe to it.

THEN with that background, every detail will be addressed in the following videos. Do not be deceived by the simplistic storytelling structure of these videos! This guy has a Phd in Jewish Apocalyptic Symbolism. He even corrected a few (tiny) interpretative errors in some of my favourite theologians! People I know personally. (It was only in 1 or 2 scenes in Revelation.) You might feel like you're back in Sunday School because of the style - but if you take it in - it's actually quite deep.

They're only about 11 minutes each.

So you don't know any of the answers yourself.
Since you don't know anything about revelation,you really can't say anything to anyone else about what they may know or not.
I thought they were very simple questions .
I just wanted to know when those things were fulfilled and who did they happen too.Since there are no witnesses that any of those things were fulfilled ,I will just have to accept the fact that they have not been fulfilled .
Thanks anyways.

 

[JulieB67]

So you don't know any of the answers yourself.

Going by past experience that's his MO. Always making fun with his photos that futurists are in a panic mode (all the while panicking himself about the threat of global warming) And when someone asks questions, here come the videos from other people.

And yes, you would like to see the breakdown of which he calls a "letter to comfort Christians". A breakdown that includes when all the prophecy has been fulfilled, etc from himself, not others. It's good to have teachers but we are to study to show ourselves approved. We should be able to give our own beliefs from scripture, not videos, etc. If one cannot do that then as you said, why are they even attempting to have a conversation about Revelation in the first place. What really bothers me is that for some reason he has a problem with someone being a watchman. Being a watchman doesn't disrupt someone's life it's a natural process as a Christian. Especially seeing how we are told to watch from Christ and Paul. To watch for the signs they lay out. And yes, if one believes those signs have been fulfilled -lay it out for yourself.

I for one would love to see a breakdown of Revelation 13 and how all of that was fulfilled.

 

[parousia70]

I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Hitchens Razor.
What can be asserted without evidence can be summarily rejected without evidence.

The burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it.

 

[tailgator]

Hitchens Razor.
What can be asserted without evidence can be summarily rejected without evidence.

I don't really care if I'm rejected.
My Lord has been rejected by many.I should expect the same.

 

[tailgator]

Going by past experience that's his MO. Always making fun with his photos that futurists are in a panic mode (all the while panicking himself about the threat of global warming) And when someone asks questions, here come the videos from other people.

And yes, you would like to see the breakdown of which he calls a "letter to comfort Christians". A breakdown that includes when all the prophecy has been fulfilled, etc from himself, not others. It's good to have teachers but we are to study to show ourselves approved. We should be able to give our own beliefs from scripture, not videos, etc. If one cannot do that then as you said, why are they even attempting to have a conversation about Revelation in the first place. What really bothers me is that for some reason he has a problem with someone being a watchman. Being a watchman doesn't disrupt someone's life it's a natural process as a Christian. Especially seeing how we are told to watch from Christ and Paul. To watch for the signs they lay out. And yes, if one believes those signs have been fulfilled -lay it out for yourself.

I for one would love to see a breakdown of Revelation 13 and how all of that was fulfilled.

I agree with everything you said.

I've been watching the king of babylon smite the Philistines for about a year now and he is presently felling cedar trees in Lebanon.Isaiah 14.
The Medes say they will get their revenge and according to Isaiah 13 ,they shall on the day of the Lord.
There always seems to be something going on these days to watch.
But for these people who say all has been fulfilled except the day of the Lord,they dont watch.I don't believe they will be given any kind of a sign at all and a post like this would only confuse them.

 

[eclipsenow]

So you don't know any of the answers yourself.
Since you don't know anything about revelation,you really can't say anything to anyone else about what they may know or not.
I thought they were very simple questions .
I just wanted to know when those things were fulfilled and who did they happen too.Since there are no witnesses that any of those things were fulfilled ,I will just have to accept the fact that they have not been fulfilled .
Thanks anyways.

I wanted to direct you to the sources. The podcast covers the different approaches to Revelation that people have - and explains how other manuscripts from the time show that Jewish Apocalyptic writing is used to 'dress up' the political empires of the day as monsters and other symbols to explain what is happening politically through a theological lens. Once you've read some of the other Apocalyptic writing of the day - this becomes obvious.

John says (in Rev 1:1) that it is "to show his servants what must soon take place". John says to his friends in Asia Minor - about to fall under Roman persecution - that they are to take his message to heart (meditate on it and obey it) “for the time is near.” (Verse 3). Here is a fundamental problem for futurists - how could they understanding a message about incomprehensible future nation states and conflicts 2000 years away - let alone obey it? And how does a futurist reading sit with these first few verses saying this stuff is starting SOON!?

Then - most startling of all to futurists who are finally forced to actually slow down and read chapter 1 fully and engage with it - John says the ‘Great Tribulation’ has already started - way back then! "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." ( ESV - Verse 9)

He is their partner in the tribulation. And in patient endurance - the phrase that echoes throughout this book and all its symbolism. It’s simple really. Slow down. Read what John actually said to his audience about what he was writing. The first chapter is his instruction manual for the book, and it is obviously written not just to them, but ABOUT them and THEIR suffering!

TO THEM: Well - just as Paul wrote to Corinth about them and their chaotic church life - and we take lessons on church order, discipline, morality and other doctrines from this letter by practicing good interpretation and then applying it to our churches - so are we to read Revelation understanding what it meant to THEM first. Only then can we begin to understand how to apply this rich, vivid sermon on suffering to our own lives.

HERMENEUTICS: We need to understand from the literature of the time how they read these symbols - how they even approached this whole genre of writing - and what it was commonly used for. Then we learn that the writers used Old Testament symbols and apocalyptic writing like Daniel. We observe how important numerical symbols are - and that they are most definitely not literal numbers. EG: Jesus as a lamb had 7 horns and 7 eyes, meaning perfect power and perfect knowledge. John writing to the 7 churches is also intentional - so as there were about 10 churches back then but he chose 7 to mean that while his messages were specific - they are also universally applicable. The number 3.5 is a period of time that is “cut-off” and mercifully limited. “A third” of people caught up in a disaster is a great many - but mercifully far less than the total of humanity.

Once we get this right, we can see what the message is for us today. It’s written to the early church about their suffering. But rather than a dry list of literal statements like “stay faithful to the Lord - for one day he will judge his enemies” - it spells this sermon out in such vivid imagery it should haunt our imaginations in case we were to ever consider giving up. Christians being persecuted in churches today have reported getting great comfort from Amil sermons on Revelation. But everyone who has ever listened to futurist predictions are always left with a sneaking suspicion that this particular prediction has missed something - and it is going to fail - and embarrass the church yet again.

 

[eclipsenow]

Going by past experience that's his MO. Always making fun with his photos that futurists are in a panic mode (all the while panicking himself about the threat of global warming) And when someone asks questions, here come the videos from other people.

I can speak a little emotionally about things from time to time - and sadly am given to some hyperbole. I just want to state for the record that I don't 'panic' about climate change - as I'm a Christian and am trying to trust in the Lord about all this - whatever happens in this life. But trusting in the Lord does not mean we get a magic ticket to escape the evils of this world, one of which really is climate change. It's just Christian and loving to care about the needs of the poor in your community, the orphan and the widow and jobless. Not every Christian is gifted to help in every area. But everyone can pray about things, and can also vote about things. And one of those social and environmental harms is climate change.

It's not just that futurists make false predictions and embarrass the church - especially if these predictions get quite famous. It's that endlessly obsessing about which end-times-table is right takes the focus away from our God-given responsibilities now. The mindset becomes "I KNOW the Lord is returning soon, so I don't have to worry about xyz because he's going to sort it all out soon." But what if it's not soon? What if the next generation truly comes to hate this generation of a certain kind of church teaching a certain kind of arrogant dismissal of climate science as just the ravings of the "radical socialist left" (to quote someone with a certain investment in it all being nonsense.)

It's good to have teachers but we are to study to show ourselves approved. We should be able to give our own beliefs from scripture, not videos, etc.

I agree that there is an individual responsibility to decide scriptural matters for oneself - that the individual should work hard at it. But I find too often in these particular theological circles all theological reflection across the centuries is just abandoned. The individual's 'gut feeling' takes over - and they're free to make Revelation say whatever they want it to say - especially about groups of people they do not like.

What really bothers me is that for some reason he has a problem with someone being a watchman.

The "signs" you are talking about were local, predictable, and happening in that generation. They did. The Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem. If Christians back then had seen the 'signs' they could have fled to Judea - got out of the city in time.

But a worldwide anti-Christ government? There's no escaping that. Also - a worldwide universal judgement of all people when Christ returns? There's no escaping that either! Especially that!

Instead the 'signs' Jesus asked the disciples to watch out for were actually about the temple they could see with their own eyes! Right then and there! That temple. And we know what happened. The Romans burned it and sacrificed to their Eagle totem representing Caesar. That's the AOD - fulfilled.

 

[Oseas]

Going by past experience that's his MO. Always making fun with his photos that futurists are in a panic mode (all the while panicking himself about the threat of global warming) And when someone asks questions, here come the videos from other people.

And yes, you would like to see the breakdown of which he calls a "letter to comfort Christians". A breakdown that includes when all the prophecy has been fulfilled, etc from himself, not others. It's good to have teachers but we are to study to show ourselves approved. We should be able to give our own beliefs from scripture, not videos, etc. If one cannot do that then as you said, why are they even attempting to have a conversation about Revelation in the first place. What really bothers me is that for some reason he has a problem with someone being a watchman. Being a watchman doesn't disrupt someone's life it's a natural process as a Christian. Especially seeing how we are told to watch from Christ and Paul. To watch for the signs they lay out. And yes, if one believes those signs have been fulfilled -lay it out for yourself.

I for one would love to see a breakdown of Revelation 13 and how all of that was fulfilled.

Greetings in Christ JESUS,
JulieB67

Interesting post

In fact, there is no future for the Devil's world in which you/we still are living, except in suffer SEVERE punishments, only and only plagues, only and only punishments, and the hell's fire.-->after the end of the last week that may begin when the next and last Pope be elected, this shouldn't take long - 1Cor.15:24-28

VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ? --> posts #971 and 968-969

GOD BLESS

 

[Oseas]

Greetings in Christ JESUS,
JulieB67

Interesting post

In fact, there is no future for the Devil's world in which you/we still are living, except in suffer SEVERE punishments, only and only plagues, only and only punishments, and the hell's fire.-->after the end of the last week that may begin when the next and last Pope be elected, this shouldn't take long - 1Cor.15:24-28

VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ? --> posts #971 and 968-969

GOD BLESS

NATION shall rise against NATION ... G7 will be DISSOLVED?

NATION shall rise against NATION ... G7 will be DISSOLVED?

The END of the World is at door, but is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and...

www.baptistboard.com

 

[tailgator]

I wanted to direct you to the sources. The podcast covers the different approaches to Revelation that people have - and explains how other manuscripts from the time show that Jewish Apocalyptic writing is used to 'dress up' the political empires of the day as monsters and other symbols to explain what is happening politically through a theological lens. Once you've read some of the other Apocalyptic writing of the day - this becomes obvious.

John says (in Rev 1:1) that it is "to show his servants what must soon take place". John says to his friends in Asia Minor - about to fall under Roman persecution - that they are to take his message to heart (meditate on it and obey it) “for the time is near.” (Verse 3). Here is a fundamental problem for futurists - how could they understanding a message about incomprehensible future nation states and conflicts 2000 years away - let alone obey it? And how does a futurist reading sit with these first few verses saying this stuff is starting SOON!?

Then - most startling of all to futurists who are finally forced to actually slow down and read chapter 1 fully and engage with it - John says the ‘Great Tribulation’ has already started - way back then! "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." ( ESV - Verse 9)

He is their partner in the tribulation. And in patient endurance - the phrase that echoes throughout this book and all its symbolism. It’s simple really. Slow down. Read what John actually said to his audience about what he was writing. The first chapter is his instruction manual for the book, and it is obviously written not just to them, but ABOUT them and THEIR suffering!

TO THEM: Well - just as Paul wrote to Corinth about them and their chaotic church life - and we take lessons on church order, discipline, morality and other doctrines from this letter by practicing good interpretation and then applying it to our churches - so are we to read Revelation understanding what it meant to THEM first. Only then can we begin to understand how to apply this rich, vivid sermon on suffering to our own lives.

HERMENEUTICS: We need to understand from the literature of the time how they read these symbols - how they even approached this whole genre of writing - and what it was commonly used for. Then we learn that the writers used Old Testament symbols and apocalyptic writing like Daniel. We observe how important numerical symbols are - and that they are most definitely not literal numbers. EG: Jesus as a lamb had 7 horns and 7 eyes, meaning perfect power and perfect knowledge. John writing to the 7 churches is also intentional - so as there were about 10 churches back then but he chose 7 to mean that while his messages were specific - they are also universally applicable. The number 3.5 is a period of time that is “cut-off” and mercifully limited. “A third” of people caught up in a disaster is a great many - but mercifully far less than the total of humanity.

Once we get this right, we can see what the message is for us today. It’s written to the early church about their suffering. But rather than a dry list of literal statements like “stay faithful to the Lord - for one day he will judge his enemies” - it spells this sermon out in such vivid imagery it should haunt our imaginations in case we were to ever consider giving up. Christians being persecuted in churches today have reported getting great comfort from Amil sermons on Revelation. But everyone who has ever listened to futurist predictions are always left with a sneaking suspicion that this particular prediction has missed something - and it is going to fail - and embarrass the church yet again.

You typed all that and still completely avoided every question I asked.

They were very straight forward questions about things you claim are history .

Why is it you can type an entire page of gibberish,but can't answer one simple question?


Revelation 16
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.



Who were the men which received a sore after recieving the mark of the beast and what year did those men have a grievous sore?
Please provide historical proof this was fulfilled as you claim.I don't want a commentary from a source.I want historical proof.Commentary is not proof.Im not at all interested in an opinion when you claim it has already been fulfilled.If it had been fulfilled ,then there would be documented proof this has taken place.

 

[tailgator]

I wanted to direct you to the sources. The podcast covers the different approaches to Revelation that people have - and explains how other manuscripts from the time show that Jewish Apocalyptic writing is used to 'dress up' the political empires of the day as monsters and other symbols to explain what is happening politically through a theological lens. Once you've read some of the other Apocalyptic writing of the day - this becomes obvious.

John says (in Rev 1:1) that it is "to show his servants what must soon take place". John says to his friends in Asia Minor - about to fall under Roman persecution - that they are to take his message to heart (meditate on it and obey it) “for the time is near.” (Verse 3). Here is a fundamental problem for futurists - how could they understanding a message about incomprehensible future nation states and conflicts 2000 years away - let alone obey it? And how does a futurist reading sit with these first few verses saying this stuff is starting SOON!?

Then - most startling of all to futurists who are finally forced to actually slow down and read chapter 1 fully and engage with it - John says the ‘Great Tribulation’ has already started - way back then! "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." ( ESV - Verse 9)

He is their partner in the tribulation. And in patient endurance - the phrase that echoes throughout this book and all its symbolism. It’s simple really. Slow down. Read what John actually said to his audience about what he was writing. The first chapter is his instruction manual for the book, and it is obviously written not just to them, but ABOUT them and THEIR suffering!

TO THEM: Well - just as Paul wrote to Corinth about them and their chaotic church life - and we take lessons on church order, discipline, morality and other doctrines from this letter by practicing good interpretation and then applying it to our churches - so are we to read Revelation understanding what it meant to THEM first. Only then can we begin to understand how to apply this rich, vivid sermon on suffering to our own lives.

HERMENEUTICS: We need to understand from the literature of the time how they read these symbols - how they even approached this whole genre of writing - and what it was commonly used for. Then we learn that the writers used Old Testament symbols and apocalyptic writing like Daniel. We observe how important numerical symbols are - and that they are most definitely not literal numbers. EG: Jesus as a lamb had 7 horns and 7 eyes, meaning perfect power and perfect knowledge. John writing to the 7 churches is also intentional - so as there were about 10 churches back then but he chose 7 to mean that while his messages were specific - they are also universally applicable. The number 3.5 is a period of time that is “cut-off” and mercifully limited. “A third” of people caught up in a disaster is a great many - but mercifully far less than the total of humanity.

Once we get this right, we can see what the message is for us today. It’s written to the early church about their suffering. But rather than a dry list of literal statements like “stay faithful to the Lord - for one day he will judge his enemies” - it spells this sermon out in such vivid imagery it should haunt our imaginations in case we were to ever consider giving up. Christians being persecuted in churches today have reported getting great comfort from Amil sermons on Revelation. But everyone who has ever listened to futurist predictions are always left with a sneaking suspicion that this particular prediction has missed something - and it is going to fail - and embarrass the church yet again.

This is an example of documented proof.
This is proof that the twin towers in NY city were hit by jets.There were thousands of witnesses who witnessed this take place.

Now I'd like to see documented proof that what you say is true.There should at least be thousands of witnesses to witness everyone who had taken the mark of the beast recieved a grievous sore.Provide their testimonies if nothing else

 

[eclipsenow]

You typed all that and still completely avoided every question I asked.

They were very straight forward questions about things you claim are history .

I do not claim they are all history! Try reading my last post again.
I explained tricky concepts quite concisely - for me anyway.
Try reading what I actually wrote. Seriously - if you call that gibberish - I don't think you have a hope of understanding Revelation.
I'm trying to establish the hermeneutical baseline for you.
The lens through which we view the whole book.
Then the elements in it will make sense.
But there's always the podcast and 2 videos to help you.
Oh - and while I believe in the Perspicuity of Scripture for all things necessary for salvation (Westminster) - NOT all of the bible is Perspicuous. This part requires some serious study. Some very real world hermeneutics. And if you don't have time to understand what that is, then you can stomp your foot and demand I explain where THIS symbolic image or THAT thing actually happened in history - and you can turn your nose up at every single explanation I give not meeting YOUR reading of the passage - but the thing you will not understand? Why your reading is wrong.

 

[eclipsenow]

This is an example of documented proof.
This is proof that the twin towers in NY city were hit by jets.There were thousands of witnesses who witnessed this take place.

Now I'd like to see documented proof that what you say is true.There should at least be thousands of witnesses to witness everyone who had taken the mark of the beast recieved a grievous sore.Provide their testimonies if nothing else

That's a concrete example from history of the kind of chaotic things we do to each other when the 4 horsemen of war ride out. 9/11 as an act of terrorism was also an act of war - and it resulted in war coming to Iraq and Afghanistan. War brings war, poverty, expensive food prices, famine, disease and death to Iraq and Afghanistan.

So yes - Revelation 6 was describing the kind of thing that happens in war. Generally speaking, to Christians who were suffering under the most successful empire at war of that age - Imperial Rome!

But no - it's not an event in some imagined End Times Table of yours. Yes - it's generally described by Revelation - but not specifically. That's just you playing pin-the-news-clipping on the End Times Wall. Tell us all - if it denotes some particular event in a futurist End Times Table - which one is it? How far through that End Times Table are we? What's next? Want to inform us? Or is it all just unhelpful speculation?

Oh - and do you think John's generation could "OBEY" this message? Read Chapter 1. He wanted them to take it to heart. Do you think they could imagine the size of those buildings? Jet airliners? Really? What GOOD was that passage of Revelation to them?