How long has man been created.

GenemZ · Jun 2, 2009

mpok1519 said:
I love all these terribly constructed arguments from Genez as if he's taken courses in biology, anthropology (which is the study of humans, btw), anatomy, and zoology. Theyre so entertaining!

"A chicken cant be related to an elephant!" lol cmon, saying things akin to that further our notions that you don't know what you're talking about.

You over simplify and distort. How convenient.

Its not just the chicken and an elephant I spoke of. Its about all creatures that share the same organ schematic and their functions. What I said would have to mean that all animals that share the long list of organs that they all share in common? At one time, had to have one common ancestor that evolved to having all these organs formed and functioning together.

If not? You mean to say? You believe all the species that evolved into having hearts and lungs, and eyes and ears? A stomach and teeth? Spleens? Livers? Blood? A pancreas? Muscles? Skin? Bone? All these different creatures evolved separately from each other? And after millions of years? All ended up with the same ultra complex biological layout and design BY CHANCE? That is nuts. Its totally illogical.

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mpok1519 · Jun 2, 2009

microscopic organisms have organelle that resemble organs in higher organisms; a mitochondria does essentially the same thing that our digestive system does, extract energy from nutrients and disperse it to the cell, much in the same way that our digestive system extracts and disperses energy to the blood-stream. Organs developed because they have worked even on a microbiological level.

There is no such thing as 'chance' and 'happenstance' Genez. Things happen for very specific, explainabl, and scientific reasons. There are little things in life that cannot be observed and examined, measured and compared. Its not nuts, it perfectly logical.

The one common ancestor of everything living would probably be closer to a stromatolite, a an ancient plant-like photosynthesizing organism thatcan still be found in australia today. Not the chikcne elephant you're thinking of. Our furthest relative(as in singular) was more likely a single-celed organism.

It may blow your mind that chickens, elephants, and organs all exist, but, this is not that surprising, complicated or magical; it is all very logical. To you, however, it may be crazy and magical and "omigoodness I cant believe this happened"! but not to the educated and learned.

Teeth? Alot of animals have teeth, but not all teeth are the same.
Skin? Alot of animals have skin (I think all do to an extent, exoskeletal skin included) but there are many different types of skin, from scales, armor plating, slime, etc. Its not all the same. They all share characteristics, but do not share every characteristic.

Now, if EVERYTHING on earth looked the same, and there was no biodiversity, then yes, that'd be evidence that God or aliens put us here as some kind of controlled cloning experiment.

Assyrian · Jun 2, 2009

genez said:
To the Jews who knew Hebrew and what their teachers believed and taught them, they did understand it spoke of an utter destruction. Why would Jeremiah digress to a peaceful creation if he was warning Israel that they were about to be judged and destroyed?

The Jews were well acquainted with the teachings on Genesis and understood the Hebrew intent. Its even on record that many of the rabbis believed that there had been other worlds created before this one for that very reason.

Akiba ben Joseph was an influential Jewish rabbi who was president of the School Bene Barek near Saffa. He laid the basis for the Mishna. When Barcochebas rebelled against the Romans, Akiba joined him and was captured. He was executed in 135 A.D. The ancient work known as The Book of Light or Sefer Hazzohar, some- times simply Zohar was traditionally ascribed to one of Akiba's disciples, a certain Simeon ben Jochai. In this work, which thus represents an opinion held towards the end of the first century and the early part of the second, there is a comment on Genesis 2.4-6 which, though difficult to follow, reads thus:

"These are the generations (ie., this is the history of...) of heaven and earth.... Now wherever there is written the word 'these' ( ) the previous words are put aside. And these are the generations of the destruction which is signified in verse 2 of chapter 1. The earth was Tohu and Bohu. These indeed are the worlds of which it is said that the blessed God created them and destroyed them, and, on that account, the earth was desolate and empty."

And

We are in no position at present to determine precisely how the Jewish commentators made the discovery, but their early literature (the Midrash for example) reveals that they had some intimation of an early pre- Adamic catastrophe affecting the whole earth.

I think the bit I highlighted in blue tells us how much real scriptural basis there is for the Gap theory and all the claims of civilisation fall and judgement between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. If there was anything solid in the text, then there would be no difficulty in knowing how the Jewish commentators 'discovered' it. You need to remember Jewish exegesis ranged from the plain meaning of the text, things they thought were just hinted at, allegorical interpretations, and hidden codes. Having a very good understanding Hebrew doesn't stop people coming up with wild speculations. The Kabbalah was created by people who understand Hebrew, but these hidden meanings they discovered are not what the text bible is actually saying. As I said, there simply isn't any reference to earlier civilisations and judgements in Gen 1:2.

Similarly, clear evidence appears in the oldest extant Version of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Targum of 0nkelos)and some intimation may be seen in the "punctuation marks" of the Massoretic text of Genesis Chapter One. Early Jewish writers subsequently built up some abstruse arguments about God's dealings with Israel on the basis of this belief and it would seem that Paul in his Epistle to the Corinthians is at one point making indirect reference to this traditional background.

Without Form and Void - Chapter 1

If you do not understand what the Jews were thinking from what they understood from the Hebrew? You will not be able to discern why Jeremiah used Genesis 1:2 for his harsh warning from God.

Perhaps I should get into the Kabbalah after all the Rabbis know their Hebrew, if they found hidden meanings in the text it must be true. Or I could simply stick with what the bible actually says.

Speculation from a position of ignorance is all you can offer in your desire to protect your theory. Protect it from being disproven as to be explained perfectly by the Bible.

Amazing! The Bible reveals in its wording that there was a prior creation (which would explain the fossils) and you fight it as if the very high priestess of science must be dearly guarded. As if science in this case is being the very voice of God!

You get what it says. I know you do.

It appears that your job is not to get, but to create spin. You are not getting the job.
.

You know there was a time a when the Gap Theory seemed a viable explanation the fossils, we didn't know nearly as much about the fossil record back then, but still the fossil record and geology showed young earth creationism was wrong, so it was worth looking at other possible intereptations, even speculative ones like the Gap Theory. The problem comes when a highly speculative interpretation become infallible dogma and is held onto long after it has stopped being a viable explanation of the fossil record.

GenemZ · Jun 2, 2009

mpok1519 said:
microscopic organisms have organelle that resemble organs in higher organisms;

In what way? Livers? Eyes? Spleen? Kidneys? Adrenal glands? Intestines? Blood? Hearts? Bones? Skin? Nervous systems? Ypu want more? In what way do they resemble in a virtual way?

a mitochondria does essentially the same thing that our digestive system does, extract energy from nutrients and disperse it to the cell, much in the same way that our digestive system extracts and disperses energy to the blood-stream. Organs developed because they have worked even on a microbiological level.

I see, it produces amylase as it chews its food? And, has not only hydrochloric acid to break down its food, it also (miraculously) has a protective coating around where the hydrochloric acid is mixed with its food so that the organism does not end up digesting itself?

Amazing! And, I am sure it has a liver that produces bile to break down fats, and a pancreas to produce the digestive enzymes needed to break down further the fats and proteins. I know! I know! "It just happened."

There is no such thing as 'chance' and 'happenstance' Genez.

Without intelligent design? That's all you are left with, sir. Happenstance.

Things happen for very specific, explainabl, and scientific reasons. There are little things in life that cannot be observed and examined, measured and compared. Its not nuts, it perfectly logical.

To you? I understand.

The one common ancestor of everything living would probably be closer to a stromatolite, a an ancient plant-like photosynthesizing organism thatcan still be found in australia today. Not the chikcne elephant you're thinking of. Our furthest relative(as in singular) was more likely a single-celed organism.

I know... and it still survives perfectly as a stromatolite.

It may blow your mind that chickens, elephants, and organs all exist, but, this is not that surprising, complicated or magical; it is all very logical.

Jesus is called the Logos of God. The Greek word for Logos finds its roots in the Greek word for "logic."

To you, however, it may be crazy and magical and "omigoodness I cant believe this happened"! but not to the educated and learned.

Distortion is the name of the game..
When I can't come up with a good answer?
I distort to make my opponent appear lame.

It could not 'just have happened.' Throw all the chemicals and elements that your computer consists of in a vat, and shoot lightning bolts into it. Viola! A 300 mghz Computer with 2 gigs of ram! Whats amazing about that? That's how it happened! Don't give me any of that superstition about an intelligent designer being behind it. Can you see the one who designed it? Can you? See!

Teeth? Alot of animals have teeth, but not all teeth are the same.

I know. They were designed uniquely for each animal. Carnivores got one kind, and herbavores got another. And, those who can digest both plants and flesh got a special combination and arrangement of their teeth. Psssst! (it all just happened with a designer).

Skin? Alot of animals have skin (I think all do to an extent, exoskeletal skin included) but there are many different types of skin, from scales, armor plating, slime, etc. Its not all the same. They all share characteristics, but do not share every characteristic.

You are totally missing the point. I believe its the very reason you are able to sustain the error in your logic. For you never connect with the reality of what is being said. It keeps you being preserved as a spokesman for the false doctrine you propagate.

Now, if EVERYTHING on earth looked the same, and there was no biodiversity, then yes, that'd be evidence that God or aliens put us here as some kind of controlled cloning experiment.

God is a retard. I get it.

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mpok1519 · Jun 2, 2009

"It just happened" Is Av's answer to everything. Or, well, Goddidit.

But, "just happened" takes millions and millions of years.

You may not see how these things can happen, but the REAL scientists do know.

But, its okay; you don't have to worry about future generations learning about evolution in public school. It'll happen, but, you won't have to worry. and when it dos happen, you'll accept and embrace it. I garauntee.

ID is not real; just because I pee in the snow and write my name doesn't mean God exists. Everytime I hear the "name in sand" argument I do pee in my pants from laughing, ironically.

Irreducible complexity (Which is what I believe you are arguing for) does not exist when all complexity is subjective to a definition of complex and simple, AND, just because something is very simple doesn't mean it can't have another function. The bacteria flagellum was used in the Dover case as an example of IR, but the real scientists (not the armchair yokels the defense team came up with) proved that other bacteria have the same mechanisms for te flagellum, although they do not use the flagellum in the same way. The flagellum was at first a rotor for propulsion, but, upon examination of other bacteria, they found the same 'motor' in another, but the function of the flagellum had changed into ahypodermic syringe-like function rather than a motor on a boat. Complity had been reduced into a different viable function.

REAL scientists know what they're talking about. Te earth is older than 6000 years. People are older than 6000 years. The Bible says otherwise (according to an infinite amount of interpretations as well), but now we know that the Bible was not right. Or, well, people just read it wrong.

the Bible is important and can explain faith; but cannot explain life, or science, or do your taxes for you. If it were perfect, it could do all those things, including order chinese take-out in twelve different languages. THEN it could be perfect.

Yeah God is a retard. lol no, He is not, but, I guess if thats what you think, who am I to judge? But, you were the one who said it, not me....

Genez thinks God's a retard; well, thatd explain why we see so many dumb people out there today, right?

fwwid · Jun 2, 2009

God is a retard. I get it.

Whoa! I don't know when it is ever appropriate make a statement like that - even in a sarcastic or accusational dialect as you have just done. Please avoid this manner of speech in the future. Thanks

GenemZ · Jun 2, 2009

Assyrian said:
I think the bit I highlighted in blue tells us how much real scriptural basis there is for the Gap theory and all the claims of civilisation fall and judgement between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

That is because the commentators did not give the chapters and verses they found to make their conclusion. Its an early indicator that something was there to be found. Most likely, it was something when it was written it was taken for granted. Like if someone writes about some inalienable right given in the Constitution. He does not have to give chapter and verse if those reading already know what it contains.

If there was anything solid in the text, then there would be no difficulty in knowing how the Jewish commentators 'discovered' it.

If you go to and read the link? You will find that a good number of latter scholars drew the same conclusion. Some from universities. There problem was, they could not make sense of how we now live in a new creation. That understanding only came later with the classification and categorizing of the discovered fossils. In the scholars' case? What was seen in the Word of God predated the data needed to know why the Bible contained such information. Which only proves, the information about a previous creation was not put in Scripture because someone knew there was one.

If you read more from the link, you will find out that the scholars simply took what it said without any sense of needing to be dogmatic. For there was no reason to be so, other than to see that the Bible reveals a past creation and a replacement of a newer creation. Try reading what the link has to say and you will see this.

You need to remember Jewish exegesis ranged from the plain meaning of the text, things they thought were just hinted at, allegorical interpretations, and hidden codes.

I see.. That is why Jeremiah shouted out those words found in Genesis 1:2? To try to put fear in the hearts of the hard headed rebellious Jews? With allegory and metaphorical language?

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GenemZ · Jun 2, 2009

mpok1519 said:
"It just happened" Is Av's answer to everything. Or, well, Goddidit.

But, "just happened" takes millions and millions of years.

But, kind sir? When it began millions and millions of years ago?
What was it that 'just happened' that brought about the very first living organism?

You may not see how these things can happen, but the REAL scientists do know.

Now, that's being totally presumptuous. Insanely presumptuous.

But... I should be used to that by now.

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mpok1519 · Jun 3, 2009

anyways....~yawn~

good try.

GenemZ · Jun 3, 2009

mpok1519 said:
anyways....~yawn~

good try.

I have no illusions in regards to your type. There is no try that can be good enough.

Waiting for you to catch up and realize that at this point you fool nobody.

1 Corinthians 2:14
"The man without the Spirit does not accept
the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot
understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned."

It appears that you have no choice but to accept the pseudo scientific rationales of evolutionary theory. For you have no other place where to hide and make yourself feel proud. Ironically, if we were the medieval era? Your kind of person may had sought a position of influence in the corrupted church so you could position yourself to tell the superstitious uneducated people what to think. And, they would believe you. Just like those who swallow the theory that man came from a chimp.

Christians with intelligence easily see right through you. It does not matter to us if momentarily you rule the herd-bound mob today by means of great help from the liberal propagandizing media machine.

It will all come to an abrupt end someday. For you, it will all end. For us, it will be only the beginning of what will never end.

In the beginning which was not a beginning,
the Godhead created out of nothing (bara)
the heavens and earth.

But the planet earth had become desolate and empty,
and darkness was over the raging waters

but the Spirit of God radiated heat on the

face/surface of the frozen waters."

Go figure that one out? You can not.

1 Corinthians 2:14
"The man without the Spirit does not accept
the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot
understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned."

To the intelligent spiritual Christian, the world you live in is likened to having constant radio signals flowing all around and through you, But, in your world a radio is not known.

You yawned? That indicates you have no clue as to what you are missing. You are only able cling to the current pseudo scientific theory which mixes real science with fantasy of wishful thinking. Its a tool. One to be utilized as as a means to secure for those so inclined, a sense of self respect. "Look what I can know!" Its a theory to be used as a tool to put down others to exalt oneself in self image, to feel secure within oneself in comparison to those who are too 'stupid' to see what you believe to be true.

There is nothing new under the sun.

For the Lord, quantum physics is mere child's play. He is the creator and inventor of all reality. All curiosity will be satisfied in his presence for those who love Him.

But, for others, it will be like those who are driven by the desire to cling to theories like men are driven to collect stamps and coins. It will all be rendered meaningless because it will serve no purpose when all reality is revealed.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but
the word of our God stands forever."

ttt

beardedad · Jun 3, 2009

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']As I have listened to debates on evolution before there have been questions that to me are never asked. Maybe I wasn’t listened at that time. Maybe someone could help me in these areas. I have heard the different laws brought up but has anyone asked “Why”. If everything came from a primordial soup, with everything the same, why would something change? What would cause it? They mentioned survival of the fittest, but if everything is equal why change. It does not make sense to me. Can we will a change in our self? Another question is when did mammals and insects diverge from trees and grasses? Once again why? If survival is the reason what does a grass have to give it a chance to survive over an animal that will eat it, won’t it be gone. I heard several scientists say that changes still happen. Show me? How about the crocodile, the evolutionist say that it has not changed in millions of years. Again why? Can it not be improved on? I have seen amber with insects from, as they say millions of years ago, but they look the same today as they look in the amber. Can they not be improved on? Maybe someone can tell me what their answers would be, because I just don’t see it. The hard intellectual questions maybe they have an answer for to try to show their reasoning , but how about the simple questions. How? Why? Can they answer them. The simple answer is that God did it. That he created man, when the Bible states, not that long ago and we today are tring to make answers work that don't. [/FONT]

GenemZ · Jun 3, 2009

beardedad said:
As I have listened to debates on evolution before there have been questions that to me are never asked. Maybe I wasnt listened at that time. Maybe someone could help me in these areas. I have heard the different laws brought up but has anyone asked Why. If everything came from a primordial soup, with everything the same, why would something change? What would cause it? They mentioned survival of the fittest, but if everything is equal why change. It does not make sense to me. Can we will a change in our self? Another question is when did mammals and insects diverge from trees and grasses? Once again why? If survival is the reason what does a grass have to give it a chance to survive over an animal that will eat it, wont it be gone. I heard several scientists say that changes still happen. Show me? How about the crocodile, the evolutionist say that it has not changed in millions of years. Again why? Can it not be improved on? I have seen amber with insects from, as they say millions of years ago, but they look the same today as they look in the amber. Can they not be improved on? Maybe someone can tell me what their answers would be, because I just dont see it. The hard intellectual questions maybe they have an answer for to try to show their reasoning , but how about the simple questions. How? Why? Can they answer them. The simple answer is that God did it. That he created man, when the Bible states, not that long ago and we today are tring to make answers work that don't.

Don't bother to ask that question. They never deal with the logical first step. Its too inconvenient. They will always tell you to ask your question to another type of expert. Trouble is? If they do not know what the "other expert" tells us? They have no right to claim that they are in the clear. Its they that should be pursuing the expert and question him to be able to answer the question themselves.

They do not want to know that truth. They found these toys in a field one day and they want to play with them. They want to make up names for their toys, and hate the idea that they may really belong to someone who will take them back. Its their sandbox. Their toys. Just play with the toys by their rules or go away. But, they will come over to your forum and keep inviting us to their sand box. I guess they get bored with playing with their toys. They need a new excitement. Getting the picture?

Grace and peace, GeneZ

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fwwid · Jun 3, 2009

beardedad said:
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']As I have listened to debates on evolution before there have been questions that to me are never asked. Maybe I wasnt listened at that time. Maybe someone could help me in these areas. I have heard the different laws brought up but has anyone asked Why. If everything came from a primordial soup, with everything the same, why would something change? What would cause it? They mentioned survival of the fittest, but if everything is equal why change. It does not make sense to me. Can we will a change in our self? Another question is when did mammals and insects diverge from trees and grasses? Once again why? If survival is the reason what does a grass have to give it a chance to survive over an animal that will eat it, wont it be gone. I heard several scientists say that changes still happen. Show me? How about the crocodile, the evolutionist say that it has not changed in millions of years. Again why? Can it not be improved on? I have seen amber with insects from, as they say millions of years ago, but they look the same today as they look in the amber. Can they not be improved on? Maybe someone can tell me what their answers would be, because I just dont see it. The hard intellectual questions maybe they have an answer for to try to show their reasoning , but how about the simple questions. How? Why? Can they answer them. The simple answer is that God did it. That he created man, when the Bible states, not that long ago and we today are tring to make answers work that don't. [/FONT]

Bearded, species change over time, because the environment changes. During meiosis, crossing over makes it possible for close to an infinite varities of the same individual. The random (there's that word again) mixing of genes during crossing over results in an individual of a population being born with a different phenotype. Different phenotype does not mean that the change is significant, but rather small. However, small changes spread out over millions of years can result in significant changes in a species if (1) the population is small enough that said change could make an impact and (2) the environment yielding the selective pressures to support said genetic changes persists over an extended period of time. That said, although changes do occur during crossing over, genes that have contributed to a populations survival in any given niche will remain - only modifications in those traits will take place; some for the better, some for the worse. Only slight modifications spread out over sometimes millions of years will yield the types of morphological changes that people would consider significant, the types that could produce a new species adaptively radiating from those previous. Obviously, population isolation is a significant point in this matter. One important fact to keep in mind is that often in a population, only those individuals that carry the genes that will help that individual survive, moreso then the next individual, will survive to the age of reproduction to yield the next generation. While there are exceptions (i.e. puctuated equilibrium - see cambrian explosion, exctinction of keystone species, population isolation) this general trend is significant over the long haul.

Now, if the environment changes, obviously the selective pressures will shift it's impact on a population such that previous genetic changes that yielded a beneficial impact on an individual may now be detrimental, it also may enhance said beneficial impact.

Good grief, there is soooooooo much more that could be explained, but your question is fundamental enough that with minimal research on your part you would be able to find the answers you're looking for. A "Christian Apologetics" website would not be the place to go as you will be bombarded with biased remarks from people who simply refuse to believe that any amount of time or natural selection can yield the bounty of species we enjoy today. May I suggest you go to a library, or take a course on evolutionary biology at your college or domicile. On the flipside, maybe you want the biased response, afterall YOU decided to seek the "answer to your question" on this website - I pray this is not the case.

GenemZ · Jun 3, 2009

This is what Spirit filled believers are not supposed to get.

Creatures evolve by small incremental changes that took place over millions of years of development. Its like saving a a penny a month for millions of years. You end up being quite rich in the end, but too old to do anything with it.

Problem is this. Evolutionists can not explain why such a genius of design would need millions of years to produce such life in the first place. After all? The earliest lifeforms already had bones, hearts, brains, stomachs, livers, teeth, an anus, etc.

Why were such highly developed complex creatures appearing at even the earliest stages of the fossil records? Evolutionists can only try to explain how we got from there being the raptors to the finding the iguana we see today. They can not explain satisfactorily how the earliest forms of life were already exhibiting complex lifeforms.

One would think that if life evolved with no outside intelligent force? Why would life evolve to eventually turn on itself to become its own predator? It would be like men evolving into a form that would herd and capture men for slaughter and food. Makes no sense. I am to become the food of by own ascendant?

Grass does just fine by itself. But, carrots and rhubarb somehow ended up coming to being. But we see grass growing still all around them... With trees... flowers... weeds... medicinal herbs... spices.... poisonous plants...vines....bushes.... etc.

You see... It all just happened by chance. But? Of course, it took millions upon millions of years to create themselves. But, wait? They could not have created themselves! Rather, it was all a long drawn out mindless process of random lucking out. That's it.

"For God's wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth
and make it inoperative.

For that which is known about God is evident to
them and made plain in their inner consciousness,
because God has shown it to them. For ever
since the creation of the world His invisible
nature and attributes, that is, His eternal
power and divinity, have been made
intelligible and clearly discernible in
and through the things that have
been made.
So men are without excuse."

Romans 1:18-20

.

.

mpok1519 · Jun 3, 2009

we've explained the answers; they just do't understand them.

It has to do with comprehension skills.

We get a bunch scripture in return, but, no real comprehension as to what science says.

Theres no real need to convince older generations of thee things, however; its the kids that're in school that need to understand concepts of evolution.

mpok1519 · Jun 3, 2009

genez ges an allegory of change and compares peoples' biolgical descent with modification with collecting pennies.

Such useless analogies do only one thing; derail and confuse one from the real facts.

Why, oh why, would it be INgenius to create something tha takes millions of years? Why not? Dos't it take a long time to create a masterpiece? Doesn't it take forever to landscape your yard?

Yes, they do have animals on fossil records to trace back. Genez, you say "Oh, raptor fossil, but, ohno, we have iguanas today! Theres no way evolution can be real!" is just plain decieving. Yes, there were raptors (and still are; eagles for one) and there are iguanas. Millions and millions of years of evolution have taken place.

Makes no sense for the dominant predator to turn on itself? Oh no, it actually makes perfect sense. Male lions kill each other all the time for resource competition. Human nature is the same way. People are self-destructive organisms; we have booze, cigarettes and religion. Enough said. lol

Random chance and lucking out have nothing to do with it; the universe is so vast and so huge. If you have a ten trillion sided dice, and you roll it until the end of time, eventually you will land on one. Even if its a hundred-trillion sided dice, yes, each and eveyr number WILL be landed on eventually. This whole idea of random chance? Nothing, is random when everything is possible. Possibility is the opposite of random. Take a deck of cards; any card I choose is not random a there are very specific reasons as to why one would pick any card. Two of clubs on top? It was on top for a reason. The Ace of Spades from the bottom? It was on bottom for a specific reason; thats how the deck was shuffled.

Theres no good proof for ID, only bad arguments. Theres ALOT of proof and ALOT of good evidence for evolution.

Take one of those university classes I mentioned Genez; it'll make sense. And no, the Lord will not hate you for it.

fwwid · Jun 3, 2009

genez said:
This is what Spirit filled believers are not supposed to get.

Creatures evolve by small incremental changes that took place over millions of years of development. Its like saving a a penny a month for millions of years. You end up being quite rich in the end, but too old to do anything with it.

Problem is this. Evolutionists can not explain why such a genius of design would need millions of years to produce such life in the first place. After all? The earliest lifeforms already had bones, hearts, brains, stomachs, livers, teeth, an anus, etc.

Why were such highly developed complex creatures appearing at even the earliest stages of the fossil records? Evolutionists can only try to explain how we got from there being the raptors to the finding the iguana we see today. They can not explain satisfactorily how the earliest forms of life were already exhibiting complex lifeforms.

One would think that if life evolved with no outside intelligent force? Why would life evolve to eventually turn on itself to become its own predator? It would be like men evolving into a form that would herd and capture men for slaughter and food. Makes no sense. I am to become the food of by own ascendant?

Grass does just fine by itself. But, carrots and rhubarb somehow ended up coming to being. But we see grass growing still all around them... With trees... flowers... weeds... medicinal herbs... spices.... poisonous plants...vines....bushes.... etc.

You see... It all just happened by chance. But? Of course, it took millions upon millions of years to create themselves. But, wait? They could not have created themselves! Rather, it was all a long drawn out mindless process of random lucking out. That's it.

"For God's wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth
and make it inoperative.

For that which is known about God is evident to
them and made plain in their inner consciousness,
because God has shown it to them. For ever
since the creation of the world His invisible
nature and attributes, that is, His eternal
power and divinity, have been made
intelligible and clearly discernible in
and through the things that have
been made.
So men are without excuse."

Romans 1:18-20

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Again, once more Genez is failing to make the disconnect between the proverbial evolutionist and those who believe in evolution, yet are Christian. Nobody here is claiming that God didn't have a hand in what was going on. THIS IS PROOF THAT YOU ARE NOT READING OUR POSTS. Consequently, THIS IS PROOF THAT YOU ARE UNWILLING TO LISTEN AND THAT YOU'VE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND AS TO WHAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE EVEN BEFORE YOU RECIEVE ANSWERS TO YOUR SO-CALLED QUESTIONS.

It amazes me how many times I've seen people over these months Genez calling you out on your "according to me" / "my word only" / "Lo, here is Christ" doctrine. It is more then evident that people on this site have recognized your arrogance and failure to admit that you could be wrong. You are not the current prophet of God - you are a prima-donna. You are not the sole bearer of all truth, neither have you been able to elucidate how you feel that only your interpretation of scripture is the correct interpretation? Again, care to expound? What evidence have you been able to bring to the table beyond pure speculation on the part of an anti-evolutionist, fundamentalist theologian.

An Arch Angel · Jun 3, 2009

Some people think evolution means death.
I do not understand this. The egos fear runs deep.

fwwid · Jun 3, 2009

An Arch Angel said:
Some people think evolution means death.
I do not understand this. The egos fear runs deep.

I agree. The fundamentalist Christian society that people have been reared with has conditioned them to believe such nonsense. I know because I was once there until I learned to think for myself. Consequently, I don't blaim them but pray that they'll understand evolution for what it really is, not for what they want to believe it denotes.

mpok1519 · Jun 3, 2009

beardedad said:
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']As I have listened to debates on evolution before there have been questions that to me are never asked. Maybe I wasnt listened at that time. Maybe someone could help me in these areas. I have heard the different laws brought up but has anyone asked Why. If everything came from a primordial soup, with everything the same, why would something change? What would cause it? [/qoute]

Elemental diversity; carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, oxygen; they all do different things. Life would be the same constant if everything was made up of hydrogen, and thats it. But, no; life is essentially diverse

They mentioned survival of the fittest, but if everything is equal why change. It does not make sense to me. Can we will a change in our self? Another question is when did mammals and insects diverge from trees and grasses? Once again why? If survival is the reason what does a grass have to give it a chance to survive over an animal that will eat it, wont it be gone. I heard several scientists say that changes still happen. Show me? How about the crocodile, the evolutionist say that it has not changed in millions of years. Again why? Can it not be improved on? I have seen amber with insects from, as they say millions of years ago, but they look the same today as they look in the amber. Can they not be improved on? Maybe someone can tell me what their answers would be, because I just dont see it. The hard intellectual questions maybe they have an answer for to try to show their reasoning , but how about the simple questions. How? Why? Can they answer them. The simple answer is that God did it. That he created man, when the Bible states, not that long ago and we today are tring to make answers work that don't. [/font]

Click to expand...

Evolution follows the rules of certain mechanics. Genetic mutation is one. Descent with modification is another. Population isolation, gene flow, gene drift, etc. Look up these terms, take the cphysical anthropology class at your local university.

Many insects look very different today than in the past; millions of years ago there were centipedes the size of large dogs, and dragon-flys the size of large birds. Insects have changed; sure they have the same six-legs, three-segmented bodily parts, but, yes, they have changed.

A crocodile and a shark are good example of how evolution works; theyre perect killing machines. theres little reason for crocs and sharks to modify a whole lot over the years because mother nature pretty much perfected them a loooong time ago. BUT, we have ALL kinds of sharks and crocs. Gav crocs, salty-crocs, freshy crocs. Aligators, caimans, gavril(sp?) crocs. ALL with different features, but essentially the same. Sharks again; hamerheads, bull, white, reef, black tip, white tip, lemon, nurse. ALL different from the next. What do you mean the croc has changed very little over the years? It has twenty cousins that all look distinguishable!

Animals and insects diverged not from trees. lol This is crazy.

Please, go ahead and read inyour local library. What else are our tax dollars for? Go get a scholarship at a local university; you can take the class on evolution for free.

Descent with modification.

Genetic flow.

Genetic drift.

Population isolation.

Genetic mutation.

Look these up; understand them, comprehend them, and then understandthem some more.

Thats when it'll make sense.

How long has man been created.

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Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)

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