How long before preaching?

Bluelion said:

Hi,

I have been called to preach and started school this year to do it, it will take me about 6 years before I am ready to lead a church. Street preaching is harder.

When God calls you know it. I was called to be baptized last year even though i was saved at 6 I did not get baptized till i was 36. I literally could not wait any long. I felt like i was going to explode. What I found is my church would not do it because i was living with my wife and not married to her at the time. They suggested I kick her out. i knew that was wrong. Jesus went to the Samiranine womans house when she was living with a man did not stop her from getting saved, and I suspect baptized.In fact many churches would not do it. Finally I was baptized in a bath tub with my wife after we were married.

Next what i had gone through with the church i knew i wanted to speak out against. Baptism is commanded by God and these churches around here try to stop me from doing Gods Will. This lead to my second calling to preach. I was first called at 17 20 years ago, but my family threaten to cut me off and made it hard for me so i gave up the idea. Now i was called again. I started school this year 20 years after the first call, and i found out fast God had a lot to teach me before i went out preaching. I am just finishing up two classes. 1st class was on old testament,and 2nd class was on new testament. I learned more in 8 weeks a school then in all my years at church.

So my point is you have a lot to learn. If you are called God will prepare yopu well as he is doing with me. I suggest finding a good school and getting formal training. I use to think a person didn't need any, but now i see i was wrong. Paul had a lot of training in Jewish faith and then by Jesus, and look how far he went.

Train hard that is my advice. oh yeah and my call to preach I literally felt like if i did not start school right now i would explode. My will did not matter, I then understood what Paul meant by slave to God, but I am a happy and thankful slave

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I would never downplay education in the role of ministry.

However, I do not see it as a "requirement" for Pastoring or evangelism.

Classic example is John Leland Dagg.

The wikipedia says:

John Leadley Dagg (1794–1884), born in Loudoun County, Virginia, lived to be over 90 years old. He died in June 1884, as one of the most respected men in American Baptist life, and remains one of the most profound thinkers produced by his denomination. Dagg overcame extraordinary problems – a limited education, near-blindness, and physical disability – to become a great pastor in Philadelphia and elsewhere and then an educator both in Alabama and as president at Mercer University in Georgia. He was a convinced Calvinist of an evangelical kind who wrote a winsome English prose. His magnum opus, Manual of Theology (1857), was the first comprehensive systematic theology written by a Baptist in America and it became foundationally influential for Baptists in the South.

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John L. Dagg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In seminary, I took a class entitled "Southern Baptist Heritage." Our textbook: "Baptists and the Bible, by Ton Nettles, and L. Russ Bush.

In it, they tell that Dagg only had a 6th grade education.

If you can, by all means get an education, however, that never trumps being guided by the Holy Spirit.

He will guide you to all truth. (J. Christ)

God Bless

Till all are one.

progmonk said:

Yes


Theologian is not an office as your definition leaves out, those who have no outlet (or as you would say work, or office) for their Theology often in my opinion become disconnected from God because they pursue knowledge as opposed to him, himself.


No, I believe you are removing the Spiritual aspect from Theology, just because it is a big word, just because you think it is dry. But surely you would agree with me that there is nothing dry about communing with God, in those blessed spaces where God condescends to meet with us, to covenant with us, what higher joy is there, what higher Theology?


I don't think you can study your way to true Theology, so I guess in part we are in agreement.


Perhaps you didn't understand me, every Saint is a Theologian, or do you suggest that someone can come to Christ without contemplating God?

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You my brother are conveying,your idealism on this subject,by using Montague grammar.

You have grossly misinterpreted,my (big words)and are merely stating the obvious.

In other words are we discussing a Theologian who by way of formal education that will prostolize his beliefs based on the institutional ideals he had been taught?

Or are we labeling a lay person who study's a Bible passage then shares it with others?

Big difference.

Example:
A Theologian who has studied in a Roman Catholic Seminary,would tend to inject Catholic dogma into a interpetation.

So what we must do is base our discussion on known fact.

I previously posted the formal definition of Theologian,it does not qualify everyone as Theologians,but you do.

This simply confuses the question at hand.

Who do we consider our authority,a Church Council or God?

now faith said:

You my brother are conveying,your idealism on this subject,by using Montague grammar.

You have grossly misinterpreted,my (big words)and are merely stating the obvious.

In other words are we discussing a Theologian who by way of formal education that will prostolize his beliefs based on the institutional ideals he had been taught?

Or are we labeling a lay person who study's a Bible passage then shares it with others?

Big difference.

Example:
A Theologian who has studied in a Roman Catholic Seminary,would tend to inject Catholic dogma into a interpetation.

So what we must do is base our discussion on known fact.

I previously posted the formal definition of Theologian,it does not qualify everyone as Theologians,but you do.

This simply confuses the question at hand.

Who do we consider our authority,a Church Council or God?

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You know, its funny that people seem to forget that Jesus did not call the most educated to service in His day.

Looking at the disciples, out of the twelve, Matthew was probably the most educated as he was a tax collector. So he had to have some level of education in order to do his work.

The least educated was probably held by Peter. A fisherman.

It wasn't until after the crucifixion that the "educated", (Luke and Paul) were called.

We know Paul was educated in both Israel, as a Pharisee, and in Rome.

Luke was educated in Greece where the best schools on medicine were.

Like I said, I'm not downplaying education. If there is any way to get it, get it.

But people seem to forget:

"...they will all be taught by God." -Jn. 6:45 (KJV)

And they seem to forget:

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." -1 Jn. 2:20 (KJV)

I have seen time and time again over the last 13 years. More and more churches are placing more emphasis on education than calling.

It don't matter if God has called you to preach. What matters is do you have letters beside your name.

Funny, men who have A.A, B.S. M.B.S,. PhD, or even M. Div., are just as apt to teach errors and lead astray as somebody who don't have those letters.

A wise old man that I once knew said:

"That's whats wrong with the pulpits today,
Momma called them,
Daddy paid for their education,
and God had nothing to do with it."

Personally, I'd rather sit under a Spirit filled man who answered the call, than to sit under a Pastor who has education out the wazoo and don't know what they are talking about.

Many a time have I went to church and the Pastor come in on a Wednesday night, still in his coveralls from working his farm, take his Bible out, read a passage of scripture, and preached with conviction by the power of the Holy Spirit.

many a time have I went to church on Sundays, the pastor take out his bible, read a passage of scripture, pull his suspenders off his shoulders and you'd better hold on...cause it was on then.

God I miss those sermons of the late 1960's and early 1970's.

Sadly, those days are gone.

And sadly, when churches place more emphasis on education rather than calling, you get what we have today.

Oh well...rant over.

God Bless

Till all are one.

now faith said:

Example:
A Theologian who has studied in a Roman Catholic Seminary,would tend to inject Catholic dogma into a interpetation.

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I'm not disagreeing, but adding to what you said here.

Another classic example is this.

To see the effects of liberism in Southern Baptist Seminary schools, David Cloud did a study of first year students, verses those on the Graduate level. Here is the difference:

To illustrate the condition of the Southern Baptist schools in the 1970s, consider a survey that was taken in 1976 by a Master of Theology student at the Southern Theological Seminary, the oldest and most prominent of SBC seminaries. Three faculty members--G. Willis Bennett, E. Glenn Hinson, and Henlee Barnette--signed that they had read and approved the thesis containing this survey ("Liberalism Brews within the Southern Baptist Convention," William A. Powell, Sr., Fundamentalist Journal, February, 1984, p. 21). One statement was -- "Jesus was born of a virgin: completely true." Of the first-year students, 96% said they agreed with this statement. Of final-year seminary students, only 66% agreed. Thus, after three years of training in this SBC school, 30% of the students had learned to question the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. It gets worse, though. At the Th.M. level, only 33% agreed that Jesus was born of a virgin, and only 32% of Ph.D. candidates agreed. Thus almost a full 70% of advanced Southern Seminary students in the 1970s questioned the virgin birth. When asked if they believed Jesus literally walked on water, 96% of first-year students believed this, while only 59% of fourth year students believed it, and only 44% of Th.M. and 22% of Ph.D. students believed it. When asked if they had any doubts that Jesus Christ is the Divine Son of God, 100% of first-year students said they had no doubts, while only 87% of fourth-year students, 63% of Th.M. candidates and 63% of Ph.D. candidates had no doubts. This means that almost 40% of the graduate-level students at this SBC school questioned the Deity of Jesus Christ. In fact, it is probable that a much higher percentage questioned the true deity of Christ, since the term "divine Son of God" is commonly reinterpreted by Modernists to mean something other than the fact that Jesus Christ is Almighty God. Further, roughly 30% of the fourth-year students and 35% of Th.M. and Ph.D. candidates said they had doubts even about the existence of God"

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http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/liberalsbc.htm

You are right, when educated in seminary, what is taught tends to stick with you.

I still do not downplay education. It is a good thing. I was fortunate enough to sit under some very good teachers who only confirmed what I already believed to be true.

It is indeed a sad state when more emphasis is placed on education rather than calling.

Who knows, you may have in your pulpit, leading your congregation, one of the graduate students who graduated from seminary, but doubt the very existence of God Himself.

God Bless

Till all are one.

We must also remember the Words of Jesus, when He said of the Holy Ghost:

"He will guide you into all truth."

Who is doing the guiding at these cemetery's? (I know the word is seminaries, but most of them turn out zombie preachers who have been programmed to teach and preach what the seminary believes to be truth, but may not be)

Judging by many of the doctrines espoused by so many preachers in the pulpits and over the airwaves, it appears that for the most part, flesh is doing the educating instead of the Spirit of Truth.

And yes, I too miss many of the sermons from many decades ago.

SeventhValley said:

The opinion of those friends is that I should study doctrine and work at the church for 5 years before attempting preaching or evangelizing.

The SBC pastor said someone who just became a Christian yesterday can evangelize today because God will provide him with what to say.

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I would tend to agree with the SBC pastor to some extent. Those enthused with the faith are often new converts.

However, for me, I would want to get some grounding in evidential apologetics so that I could begin to answer some of the troubling questions that skeptics will throw at you.

If you want preparation at a basic level, try Stephen Gaukroger, It makes sense (1987/2004. London: Scripture Union).

Also, Norman Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (Baker Academic).

William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith (Crossway Books)

Ravi Zacharias & Norman Geisler (gen. eds), Who Made God? And answers to over 100 other tough questions of faith (Zondervan).

That could get you started.

But if I were in your shoes, I'd try to get into a few courses on evidential apologetics at a reputable Christian institution and find a mentor in apologetics who will help you in your defense of the faith. Why don't you contact Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and ask for a recommendation for a place to study close to where you live. Another alternative would be to study apologetics by distance education, but with a mentor with whom you can interact.

These are just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

Studious One said:

We must also remember the Words of Jesus, when He said of the Holy Ghost:

"He will guide you into all truth."

Who is doing the guiding at these cemetery's? (I know the word is seminaries, but most of them turn out zombie preachers who have been programmed to teach and preach what the seminary believes to be truth, but may not be)

Judging by many of the doctrines espoused by so many preachers in the pulpits and over the airwaves, it appears that for the most part, flesh is doing the educating instead of the Spirit of Truth.

And yes, I too miss many of the sermons from many decades ago.

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I think that you are being somewhat harsh with this kind of statement: "most of them turn out zombie preachers who have been programmed to teach and preach what the seminary believes to be truth, but may not be". Many seminaries are a product of the denomination that helps to fund them.

To be honest, I find some questionable doctrines (when compared with Scripture) being promoted on CF as well. One doesn't have to go to a seminary to find such teaching. It can be right here on this forum.

For me, one of the major difficulties is that many of the churches with which I have been associated in about 50 years as a Christian have not taught me how to think critically about my faith. I'm talking about asking some of the penetrating questions and getting sound biblical answers while in the church. Then these kinds of people head off to theological college, seminary or university where there are critical questions asked of their faith and they can become unstuck in their thinking.

This also can be complicated by teachers at college/seminary who are questioning their own faith and passing those questions on to the students.

Oz

SeventhValley said:

I am thinking about street preaching but how long should I study doctrine and the scriptures before doing it?

A SBC pastor told me right away if you feel called. A PCA pastor and a Anglican I know both said 5 years hard study minimum.

Thoughts?

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I'd say six, including some stretch in actual mission work.

Still...no one answered:

"...if your Elders disapproved of you street preaching, would you do it any way? If you say yes than you are pridefully ignoring those God has placed over you. If you answer no you prove my point."

Folks, I hope you can see the folly of your extreme individualism.

jm

JM said:

Still...no one answered:

"...if your Elders disapproved of you street preaching, would you do it any way? If you say yes than you are pridefully ignoring those God has placed over you. If you answer no you prove my point."

Folks, I hope you can see the folly of your extreme individualism.

jm

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With your kind of answer, no wonder people are not wanting to respond!

For me, if the elders disapproved and gave their biblical and practical reasons for taking that position, I would take it as God's direction for my ministry. But this is on the basis that they are elders with a high view of Scripture and the proclamation of the Gospel.

There could be elders in liberal churches who could take such a stance, based on their lack of interest in overt evangelism.

Oz

JM said:

Still...no one answered:

"...if your Elders disapproved of you street preaching, would you do it any way? If you say yes than you are pridefully ignoring those God has placed over you. If you answer no you prove my point."

Folks, I hope you can see the folly of your extreme individualism.

jm

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Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

When Peter was told to shut up, he preached Christ all the more.

When God called me to preach, I did not seek the Elder's permission.

Galatians 1:15-19 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Paul conferred not with flesh and blood. He didn't seek man's approval. God told him to minister and he did as God bid him to do.

London Baptist Confession written in 1689:

26.11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it. ( Acts 11:19-21; 1 Peter 4:10, 11 )

DeaconDean said:

I'm not disagreeing, but adding to what you said here.

Another classic example is this.

To see the effects of liberism in Southern Baptist Seminary schools, David Cloud did a study of first year students, verses those on the Graduate level. Here is the difference:


http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/liberalsbc.htm

You are right, when educated in seminary, what is taught tends to stick with you.

I still do not downplay education. It is a good thing. I was fortunate enough to sit under some very good teachers who only confirmed what I already believed to be true.

It is indeed a sad state when more emphasis is placed on education rather than calling.

Who knows, you may have in your pulpit, leading your congregation, one of the graduate students who graduated from seminary, but doubt the very existence of God Himself.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Amen Deacon,on both post.

I am sorry to say when we are puffed up in our Church,our education,our position to the point of making these things our priority or authority over The Word of God it has become a form of Idolatry.

Considering Gods great wisdom,the K.J.V reads on a fourth grade level,it does not take a brilliant Theologian to understand it.

If we come to a point of needing special scholars to interpet the Bible,we just as well give it back to Rome and abide in pre reformation circumstances.

Like you,I am not opposed to education or teachers of the Word.

But when the simplest statements can not go with out debate and correction from the special people or a man cannot fulfill a spiritual calling with out the blessing of a church,we are going back to the dark ages.

JM said:

London Baptist Confession written in 1689:

26.11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it. ( Acts 11:19-21; 1 Peter 4:10, 11 )

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Do all Baptist adhere to this?

No disrespect to either one,but this confession and terminology echoes Catholicism.

Someone on another fourm made a valid point that many have missed, take out the word "street," and the answer becomes clear.

"If a man is called of God to preach the gospel, God’s church will recognize his gifts before he does." Don Fortner

now faith said:

Do all Baptist adhere to this?

No disrespect to either one,but this confession and terminology echoes Catholicism.

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No Brother, not everyone recognizes this confession, that is true. It is a historic Baptist confession worth considering. It was written by Particular or Reformed Bapists.

SeventhValley said:

I am thinking about street preaching but how long should I study doctrine and the scriptures before doing it?

A SBC pastor told me right away if you feel called. A PCA pastor and a Anglican I know both said 5 years hard study minimum.

Thoughts?

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Just make sure you have a good theological grasp of the Gospel. You will learn as you go!

Glad you want to do this...so few people want to share their faith biblically anymore...

Ok I figure I will go with a simple message repentance , be baptized , go to church.

I got some new testaments from my pastor to hand out. He is leaving the ball in my court to see what I do with it.

I just got to put together a basic outline with some scripture to work off of.

JM said:

No Brother, not everyone recognizes this confession, that is true. It is a historic Baptist confession worth considering. It was written by Particular or Reformed Bapists.

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And if memory serves me, wasn't it written in London, for English Baptists?

What does the current Baptist Faith and Message of 2000 say?

VI. The Church

A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3.

XI. Evangelism and Missions

It is the duty and privilege of every follower of Christ and of every church of the Lord Jesus Christ to endeavor to make disciples of all nations. The new birth of man's spirit by God's Holy Spirit means the birth of love for others. Missionary effort on the part of all rests thus upon a spiritual necessity of the regenerate life, and is expressly and repeatedly commanded in the teachings of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ has commanded the preaching of the gospel to all nations. It is the duty of every child of God to seek constantly to win the lost to Christ by verbal witness undergirded by a Christian lifestyle, and by other methods in harmony with the gospel of Christ.

Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-6; Isaiah 6:1-8; Matthew 9:37-38; 10:5-15; 13:18-30, 37-43; 16:19; 22:9-10; 24:14; 28:18-20; Luke 10:1-18; 24:46-53; John 14:11-12; 15:7-8,16; 17:15; 20:21; Acts 1:8; 2; 8:26-40; 10:42-48; 13:2-3; Romans 10:13-15; Ephesians 3:1-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 2:1-3; 11:39-12:2; 1 Peter 2:4-10; Revelation 22:17.

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The Baptist Faith & Message

I guess that settles that for me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

My priest in the Orthodox church, when I wanted to go to seminary, told me, "Wait five years and then we'll talk again." That response is typically given to everyone - even to the son of a priest - to make them sure that 1) they really want to do it for good reasons and 2) their theology has matured enough.

When I think about at my "evangelism" even five years ago when I was 18, I feel sorry for the people whose lives I made worse by being such a gung-ho and underdeveloped theologian. Ultimately it's worth considering for a long time. That's not to say God can't call you right into the street at any moment if you're supposed to be there, but if I were you, I'd take a while to think it over, for the benefit of everyone involved