How long before preaching?

[JM]

And if memory serves me, wasn't it written in London, for English Baptists?

It was written by English Baptists and has been embraced by Philadelphia Baptist Association who formally adopted the 1689 in 1742.



The name was changed to The Baptist Confession and adopted by many other American Baptist churches and associations.

American Baptist Confessions of Faith | The Reformed Reader

The earliest known reference by an association to a confession occurred in 1724, when the Philadelphia Association, in reply to a query concerning the Sabbath, referred to "the Confession of Faith, set forth by the elders and brethren met in London, 1689, and owned by us." Whether the Confession had been formally adopted is not indicated, but that it was the accepted standard of doctrine is evident. Formal adoption certainly is shown by Septenber 25, 1742, for on that date the Association in session at Philadelphia ordered a printing of a new edition. The churches paid for the printing job, which was done by Benjamin Franklin in 1743.
​

What does the current Baptist Faith and Message of 2000 say? I guess that settles that for me.

I haven't read it in a long time.

It is a standard accepted by members of the SBC, it has not been accepted on an international scale like The London Baptist Confession, 1689. It doesn't represent the historic positions of Particular/Reformed/Calvinistic Baptists either.

I understand that you are a scholar of Reformed theology and have studied deeply the Reformed faith, you seemed to have forgotten these details.



The point remains; remove "street" from before "preaching" and you have your answer.

 

[DeaconDean]

It was written by English Baptists and has been embraced by Philadelphia Baptist Association who formally adopted the 1689 in 1742.



The name was changed to The Baptist Confession and adopted by many other American Baptist churches and associations.

American Baptist Confessions of Faith | The Reformed Reader

The earliest known reference by an association to a confession occurred in 1724, when the Philadelphia Association, in reply to a query concerning the Sabbath, referred to "the Confession of Faith, set forth by the elders and brethren met in London, 1689, and owned by us." Whether the Confession had been formally adopted is not indicated, but that it was the accepted standard of doctrine is evident. Formal adoption certainly is shown by Septenber 25, 1742, for on that date the Association in session at Philadelphia ordered a printing of a new edition. The churches paid for the printing job, which was done by Benjamin Franklin in 1743.
​

I haven't read it in a long time.

It is a standard accepted by members of the SBC, it has not been accepted on an international scale like The London Baptist Confession, 1689. It doesn't represent the historic positions of Particular/Reformed/Calvinistic Baptists either.

The confession you quote, is not accepted on an international scale either.

I keep hearing that from another member when I quote from the same confession.

It isn't accepted in New Zealand, as I have been told by Ozspen.

AS a matter of fact, just 90 years later, another was written just a few years before the war of Northern Aggression, and in it it says:

Of a Gospel Church

We believe that a visible Church of Christ is a congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the ordinances of Christ; governed by his laws, and exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by his Word; that its only scriptural officers are Bishops, or Pastors, and Deacons, whose qualifications, claims, and duties are defined in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus.

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833.

I understand that you are a scholar of Reformed theology and have studied deeply the Reformed faith, you seemed to have forgotten these details.



The point remains; remove "street" from before "preaching" and you have your answer.

No I haven't.

Are all Baptists "Reformed"?

Are all Baptists Calvinists?

So what you quote, may be your standard, it isn't always mine or anybody else.

So you say Bishops, elders, deacons.

Mine says Bishops and deacons.

Now if you want, we can go on playing these games, quoting from different confessions.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JM]

Fellowship of Reformed Baptist Churches in New Zealand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JM]

So you say Bishops, elders, deacons.

Mine says Bishops and deacons

God Bless

Till all are one.

For one who claims to be scholar of Reformed theology you really missed the Reformed understanding of the two scriptural offices. (Bishop, Elder and Pastor are use interchangeably.)

 

[DeaconDean]

For one who claims to be scholar of Reformed theology you really missed the Reformed understanding of the two scriptural offices. (Bishop, Elder and Pastor are use interchangeably.)

In the first place, I ever said I was a "scholar of Reformed theology".

Secondly, I have said, and will say it again, a seminary teacher saw to it I was educated in Reformed theology.

Thirdly, not all Baptists are "Reformed" or hold to Reformed theology.

Fourthly, most who hold to Reformed theology are either, Calvinists or Presbyterians.

I am Calvinist, but not Presbyterian.

So you cannot come in here and beat me or others over the head just because they don't hold to Reformed theology.

Times change, and Confessions change.

And right now, I'm a member of the SBC, so the BF&M of 2000 is what I have to adhere to.

XI. Evangelism and Missions

It is the duty and privilege of every follower of Christ and of every church of the Lord Jesus Christ to endeavor to make disciples of all nations. The new birth of man's spirit by God's Holy Spirit means the birth of love for others. Missionary effort on the part of all rests thus upon a spiritual necessity of the regenerate life, and is expressly and repeatedly commanded in the teachings of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ has commanded the preaching of the gospel to all nations. It is the duty of every child of God to seek constantly to win the lost to Christ by verbal witness undergirded by a Christian lifestyle, and by other methods in harmony with the gospel of Christ.

Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-6; Isaiah 6:1-8; Matthew 9:37-38; 10:5-15; 13:18-30, 37-43; 16:19; 22:9-10; 24:14; 28:18-20; Luke 10:1-18; 24:46-53; John 14:11-12; 15:7-8,16; 17:15; 20:21; Acts 1:8; 2; 8:26-40; 10:42-48; 13:2-3; Romans 10:13-15; Ephesians 3:1-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 2:1-3; 11:39-12:2; 1 Peter 2:4-10; Revelation 22:17.

The Baptist Faith & Message

And unless I have misread this, no where does it say that "evangelists" must submit themselves to the Pastors and deacons for examination to determine eligibity, calling, and qualifications to evangelize.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

So here again, show me scripture which states that evangelists must be examined by Bishops, Elders, Pastors before they go out evangelizing to determine eligibility.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Fellowship of Reformed Baptist Churches in New Zealand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just a little FYI.

The member I was referring to is not Reformed, nor do they adhere to Reformed theology by any stretch of the immagination.

So that does not apply.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Dean,

The confession you quote, is not accepted on an international scale either.

I keep hearing that from another member when I quote from the same confession.

It isn't accepted in New Zealand, as I have been told by Ozspen.

Where have I told you that? I do not live in NZ and have not told you that.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Dean,

Thirdly, not all Baptists are "Reformed" or hold to Reformed theology.

And would you believe that classical or Reformed Arminians also hold to Reformed theology?

Oz

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,

Where have I told you that? I do not live in NZ and have not told you that.

Oz

I beg your pardon if I said you did. I apologize.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,
And would you believe that classical or Reformed Arminians also hold to Reformed theology?

Oz

Uh...no they don't.

Not even James Arminus held the same beliefs as the Reformers; i.e. Calvin, Luther, Zwingly.

Arminianism is based on the theological ideas of the previously Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as the Remonstrants. His teachings, however, departed from the Sovereign Grace teaching of the Reformers and as such he cannot be regarded as Reformed. Jacobus Arminius (Jacobus Hermanszoon) was a student of Beza (successor of Calvin) at the Theological University of Geneva. It is known as a soteriological sect of Protestant Christianity. Dutch Arminianism was originally articulated in the Remonstrance (1610), a theological statement signed by 45 ministers and submitted to the States-General of the Netherlands. The Synod of Dort (1618–19) was called by the States General to consider the Five Articles of Remonstrance. They asserted that:

1. election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man;
2. the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, is efficacious only for the man of faith;
3. unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
4. grace is resistible; and
5. believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.

Source

Close, but no cigar.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

(Bishop, Elder and Pastor are use interchangeably.)

Hum...

Lets see...

1984 // episkoph // episkope // ep-is-kop-ay' //

from 1980 ; TDNT - 2:606,244; n f

AV - visitation 2, bishoprick 1, office of a bishop 1; 4

1) investigation, inspection, visitation
1a) that act by which God looks into and searches out the
ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them
their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
1b) oversight
1b1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
1b2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

Source

4244 // presbuterion // presbuterion // pres-boo-ter'-ee-on //

from a presumed derivative of 4245 ; TDNT - 6:651,931; n n

AV - elders 1, estate of elders 1, presbytery 1; 3

1) body of elders, presbytery, senate, council
1a) of the Jewish elders
1b) of the elders of any body (assembly) of Christians

Source

4166 // poimhn // poimen // poy-mane' //

of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 6:485,901; n m

AV - shepherd 15, Shepherd 2, pastor 1; 18

1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have
committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaph.
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly:
so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes
++++
The tasks of a Near Eastern shepherd were:
- to watch for enemies trying to attack the sheep
- to defend the sheep from attackers
- to heal the wounded and sick sheep
- to find and save lost or trapped sheep
- to love them, sharing their lives and so earning their trust.

Source

2099 // euaggelisthv // euaggelistes // yoo-ang-ghel-is-tace' //

from 2097 ; TDNT - 2:736,267; n m

AV - evangelist 3; 3

1) a bringer of good tidings, an evangelist
2) the name given to the NT heralds of salvation through Christ who
are not apostles

Source

Bishop, Pastor, Elder used interchangably...

Three Greek words, describing different jobs.

In 21st century definitions:

1: the rank or office of or term of as a bishop
2: diocese

3: the body of bishops (as in a country)

Source

1: the part of a church reserved for the officiating clergy
2: a ruling body in presbyterian churches consisting of the ministers and representative elders from congregations within a district

3: the jurisdiction of a presbytery

4: the house of a Roman Catholic parish priest

Ibid

: a spiritual overseer; especially : a clergyman serving a local church or parish

Ibid

: a person and especially a preacher who tries to convince people to become Christian
: someone who talks about something with great enthusiasm
: a writer of any of the Gospels in the Bible

Ibid

Bishops, elders, pastors used interchangably...I don't see it in English or Greek.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[SeventhValley]

Uh...no they don't.

Not even James Arminus held the same beliefs as the Reformers; i.e. Calvin, Luther, Zwingly.


Source

Close, but no cigar.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Total depravity is Augustinian,Lutheran and Calvinist,prevenient grace is Augustinian, both are Reformed doctrine that Arminians believe.

Saying Arminians are not reformed us like saying Calvinist are not reformed since Luther followed single predestination and double predestination was a new variant not found before

Lutherans,Calvinists,Arminians all came about from different strains of the same reformation period and are all reformed.

 

[JM]

Bishops, elders, pastors used interchangably...I don't see it in English or Greek.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean, you can play with the Greek all you want, but you are mistaken. It is a fallacy to appeal to the Greek without context.

http://www.bible.ca/ntx-elders-pastors-bishops.htm
http://www.gospelway.com/topics/church/elder-bishop.php
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/elders-pastors-bishops-and-bethlehem

 

[DeaconDean]

Saying Arminians are not reformed us like saying Calvinist are not reformed since Luther followed single predestination and double predestination was a new variant not found before

I never said they weren't a product of the Reformation.

I did say they did not believe the same things as the Reformers.

And I even posted the five points of the Remonstrance, and yet, you take me to task.

Oh well.

I come in here on your side and yet I'm the one attacked.

Nothing good can come of this thread.

Since I am the one in the wrong here.

I pronounce this thread "Icabod".

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JM]

This thread is thoroughly off course now. Out of respect for SeventhValley I'm unsubscribing.

 

[OzSpen]

Total depravity is Augustinian,Lutheran and Calvinist,prevenient grace is Augustinian, both are Reformed doctrine that Arminians believe.

Saying Arminians are not reformed us like saying Calvinist are not reformed since Luther followed single predestination and double predestination was a new variant not found before

Lutherans,Calvinists,Arminians all came about from different strains of the same reformation period and are all reformed.

I recommend this article, 'Another Look at James Arminius and the Dutch Reformation' (2011) by Jerry Sutton in Midwestern Journal of Theology. Dr Sutton is Academic Dean at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Kansas City KS.

James Arminius was a minister of the Dutch Reformed Church in Amsterdam. Many of the early Reformers in Holland were not Calvinists. Arminius was of Reformed persuasion. To define 'Reformed' only in terms of Calvinism, does violence to the nature of 'Reformed' at the time of the Reformation.

Arminius wrote in support of the Reformation doctrine of total depravity:

In this state, the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened [attenuatem]; but it is also imprisoned [captivatum], destroyed and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing." St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: "Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing." That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (The Works of James Arminius, Vol 1, p. 526, Disputation XI. On the Free Will of Man and Its Powers. Respondent, Paul Leonards, Baker Book House. Available HERE).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Uh...no they don't.

Not even James Arminus held the same beliefs as the Reformers; i.e. Calvin, Luther, Zwingly.

Source

Close, but no cigar.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Wikipedia is hardly a respectable theological source to provide accurate information about the nature of Classical Arminianism and its Reformed doctrines.

You will get more accurate information about Reformed Arminianism from this article, 'Another Look at James Arminius and the Dutch Reformation' (2011) by Jerry Sutton in Midwestern Journal of Theology. Dr Sutton is Academic Dean at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Kansas City KS. This is one of the official Southern Baptist theological seminaries. And Dr Sutton dares to provide some accurate information about Arminius.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I never said they weren't a product of the Reformation.

I did say they did not believe the same things as the Reformers.

This is where you are out of step historically. James Arminius was a Reformer. Your problem seems to be to want to identify the Reformers with Calvinism. Luther had some different doctrines to Calvin; Arminius had some different doctrines to Calvin. However, Luther, Calvin and Arminius were all Reformers.

Oz

 

[SeventhValley]

I never said they weren't a product of the Reformation.

I did say they did not believe the same things as the Reformers.

And I even posted the five points of the Remonstrance, and yet, you take me to task.

Oh well.

I come in here on your side and yet I'm the one attacked.

Nothing good can come of this thread.

Since I am the one in the wrong here.

I pronounce this thread "Icabod".

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sorry I guess I jumped the gun a bit.