How is Verification of Apostles done today?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well I am only quoting the threshold given to us in scripture.
17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

According to the Scripture you have quoted, Joel's prophesy is technically false because it didn't come to pass in his generation. So, how did his contemporaries know to accept his prophecy as true?

And how can anyone in these days distinguish between a true and false prophesy? What criteria would you use to identify a false prophecy?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Bible has a list of texts dealing with testing prophets.

When looking at them start off with this -

Moses was a true prophet even though he told Israel that they would all go to the promised land of Canaan and not die in the desert.

Jonah was a true prophet even though his message was "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed"

Jeremiah 18 says that certain prophecies of God are conditional.
7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the Lord says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!”’

That is all very well, but it does not explain how one can judge between a modern prophecy that is from God and one that is not. We can tell a false prophecy, like the ones concerning Trump's victory, because they didn't come to pass, but before the election, many believed the prophecies and were shocked when Biden won the election. How come they didn't know beforehand that the prophecies were false? And why did many refuse afterward that they were false, and that Biden won the election contrary to what God wanted?

Frankly, I don't think that there is any reliable way of evaluating a prophecy if it doesn't clearly show it is non-Biblical.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Now that we have a a bit of a go at prophets, what about apostles? If one of the prominent qualification for an apostle is regular signs wonders, if they are absent, is the apostle a real one, or just a word-based pretender?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

it's about the heart of the word and the fruit it produces.

Correct. Accuracy. Thanks for engaging.

 

[BobRyan]

That is all very well, but it does not explain how one can judge between a modern prophecy that is from God and one that is not. We can tell a false prophecy, like the ones concerning Trump's victory, because they didn't come to pass, but before the election, many believed the prophecies and were shocked when Biden won the election. How come they didn't know beforehand that the prophecies were false? .

If they had applied the Bible test of a prophet to those supposed prophets making those predictions they would have known BEFORE their statements about President Trump were even made - that they were false prophets.

The election was a 50/50 outcome one person would win and one would lose which means even a false prophet had a 50/50 chance of being right. That would not have made a false prophet a real one - just because they could hit a 50/50 outcome and get it right half the time.

 

[BobRyan]

Now that we have a a bit of a go at prophets, what about apostles? If one of the prominent qualification for an apostle is regular signs wonders, if they are absent, is the apostle a real one, or just a word-based pretender?

The only qualifications given for an Apostle in the Bible are listed in Acts 1 - you had to have seen the living Christ on Earth as one of His followers. None of them have.

Some have found ways to get a few other first century evangelists put in that category - but 1 Cor 12 makes it clear that Apostles hold higher office than evangelist or prophet.

1 Cor 12
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, and various kinds of tongues.

Eph 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ;

There are no Apostles today - zip, nada, none, everyone claiming that title pans out as a false prophet so far - they never make it to Apostle.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

According to the Scripture you have quoted, Joel's prophesy is technically false because it didn't come to pass in his generation. So, how did his contemporaries know to accept his prophecy as true?

And how can anyone in these days distinguish between a true and false prophesy? What criteria would you use to identify a false prophecy?

The OT is full of prophesies pointing to the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
And yes, because their prophecies did not come to pass immediately or if what was said was not approved of, many Prophets were killed. Christ made a point of reminding the Pharasis about this. That being said, today's Apostels and Prophets keep their prophetic utterances within a short period of time so that it is relevant to a modern audience. Additionally, they are not a one time seer, they continually share their God given revelations. Eventually, if false, it will be exposed. If you wish to share otherwise , I am happy to look into it.

 

[topher694]

Correct. Accuracy. Thanks for engaging.

Cute. Consider this: A married couple is at church surrounded by friends and family. Husband is having a secret affair. From the microphone a prophet prophesies one of these two things to the man for all to hear with his wife sitting next to him.

"AFFAIRS, AFFAIRS, AFFAIRS!!!"

or

"Son, you have come to a fork in the road, one path leads to light, the other to darkness. The Lord says turn away from the darkness and pursue Me."

Both are accurate, yet one is false.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't have a problem with Joel. I used Joel as an example of a prophecy that didn't come to pass until 800 years after it was given, and there are parts of the prophecy that still haven't been fulfilled.

According to the attitude of modern prophecy critics if Joel had given his prophecy these days, he would be accused of being a false prophet because it didn't come to pass in the foreseeable future. So, these heresy-hunting false prophet witch hunters would have a problem with it.

Oh, what time limits did he set?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Cute. Consider this: A married couple is at church surrounded by friends and family. Husband is having a secret affair. From the microphone a prophet prophesies one of these two things to the man for all to hear with his wife sitting next to him.

"AFFAIRS, AFFAIRS, AFFAIRS!!!"

or

"Son, you have come to a fork in the road, one path leads to light, the other to darkness. The Lord says turn away from the darkness and pursue Me."

Both are accurate, yet one is false.

If there is more than one person in the room besides the prophet both are false because they both are way too general.

Definition of affair
1aaffairs plural : commercial, professional, public, or personal business
handles the company's public affairs
an expert in foreign affairs
b: MATTER, CONCERN
How I choose to live is my affair, not yours.
2: a procedure, action, or occasion only vaguely specified
also : an object or collection of objects only vaguely specified
Their house was a 2-story affair.
3or less commonly affaire
a: a romantic or passionate attachment typically of limited duration : LIAISON sense 2b
had an affair with a coworker
b: a matter occasioning public anxiety, controversy, or scandal : CASE
the Watergate affair of the early 1970s

The second example can refer to any sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Church did not continue to appoint new apostles, had the apostles thought it necessary for there to be a continuation of apostles, then this would have happened--but it didn't. Instead the apostles appointed bishops and presbyters to stand in for the apostles in their absence--and after the apostles had all fallen asleep in the Lord, the Church has continued to ordain and appoint ministers of the Gospel.

The Church has retained the apostolic ministry through the pastorate.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[topher694]

If there is more than one person in the room besides the prophet both are false because they both are way too general.

Definition of affair
1aaffairs plural : commercial, professional, public, or personal business
handles the company's public affairs
an expert in foreign affairs
b: MATTER, CONCERN
How I choose to live is my affair, not yours.
2: a procedure, action, or occasion only vaguely specified
also : an object or collection of objects only vaguely specified
Their house was a 2-story affair.
3or less commonly affaire
a: a romantic or passionate attachment typically of limited duration : LIAISON sense 2b
had an affair with a coworker
b: a matter occasioning public anxiety, controversy, or scandal : CASE
the Watergate affair of the early 1970s

The second example can refer to any sin.

Neither is too general. The Word is for the husband and in both cases the man would know exactly what the prophecy it was talking about.

#1 beings shame, condemnation, embarassment and will likely cause the man to reject church and God.

#2 calls him to repentance and points him closer to God without public embarrassment.

BTW, this is not a hypothetical. It actually happened.

 

[chilehed]

How is Verification of Apostles done today?

I have no idea what you're talking about. There are no new Apostles.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The only qualifications given for an Apostle in the Bible are listed in Acts 1 - you had to have seen the living Christ on Earth as one of His followers. None of them have.

Some have found ways to get a few other first century evangelists put in that category - but 1 Cor 12 makes it clear that Apostles hold higher office than evangelist or prophet.

1 Cor 12
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, and various kinds of tongues.

Eph 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ;

There are no Apostles today - zip, nada, none, everyone claiming that title pans out as a false prophet so far - they never make it to Apostle.

If the Apostles of Christ were appointed directly by the resurrected Christ, which is true, and Paul was the last to be appointed that way, then why are apostles included in the ministry of the on-going Christian church as shown in 1 Corinthians 12?

The Apostles of Christ were not appointed in the church. They were appointed before the church existed. Therefore, the apostles who were appointed in the church according to 1 Corinthians 12 are totally different than the Apostles who were appointed by the resurrected Christ.

In Antioch, Barnabas as well as Paul was appointed by the Holy Spirit as an apostle in the church, even though he was not an Apostle of Christ as Paul was. Later on, Silas was appointed as an apostle to accompany Paul. He was not an Apostle of Christ. So the church apostles did not have the same special status as the Apostles of Christ, whose teaching because New Testament Scripture. But we don't have any of the teaching of Barnabas or Silas included in the New Testament.

Also, the New Testament prophets to the church were not the same as Old Testament prophets, whose prophecies became included in O.T. Scripture. If they were, their prophecies should have been included in New Testament Scripture, but only two prophecies of Agabus were recorded in Acts. So, New Testament prophets do not carry the same inspired authority that O.T. prophets had. So a guy standing up and purporting to the an O.T, prophet to the nation has to be a fake because they don't exist any more; and prophecies of New Testament prophets were and are to be evaluated by others experienced in the Word and in the prophetic. Therefore, these "prophets" cannot truthfully say, "Thus says the Lord", because in most cases the Lord isn't saying it at all, even though what they say may be very encouraging and faith-building for believers.

New Testament prophets aren't for the pagan nations, they are for the Body of Christ, to exhort, encourage, and edify the believers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The OT is full of prophesies pointing to the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
And yes, because their prophecies did not come to pass immediately or if what was said was not approved of, many Prophets were killed. Christ made a point of reminding the Pharasis about this. That being said, today's Apostels and Prophets keep their prophetic utterances within a short period of time so that it is relevant to a modern audience. Additionally, they are not a one time seer, they continually share their God given revelations. Eventually, if false, it will be exposed. If you wish to share otherwise , I am happy to look into it.

As I said in my previous post, New Testament prophecies do not carry the weight of absolute God's authority. Therefore the same condemnation does not apply if a New Testament prophet makes a mistake. O.T. prophecies became Scripture, but the thousands of New Testament prophecies never made the pages of Scripture, because they weren't meant to. They were encouraging messages to the Body of Christ to exhort, encourage and edify the believers. Because of the mixture of Holy Spirit inspiration and persons' thoughts, they needed to be evaluated. So a New Testament prophet saying "Thus says the Lord" is usurping an authority he or she doesn't have. Have you ever wondered why Body of Christ prophecies have never been written down and added to the New Testament if they were supposed to be "Thus says the Lord" ones?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh, what time limits did he set?

I don't think he did. But his prophecy must have been recognised as having the authority of God on it, because it was added to the O.T. Scriptures as being the Word of God.

It is interesting that of all the thousands of prophecies given in the Early church and today's churches, none have been written down and added to New Testament Scripture, If they had the same authority as O.T. ones, you would think they would have been written down and added to our Bibles.

Why would Paul say that if one person was speaking a revelation, and another had a revelation, the first one should sit down and allow the second one to give his revelation, if these revelations were equal to Holy Scripture. Why was Paul not concerned that the first revelation would have been forgotten when the second one was given, and neither was written down to be be quoted by him as having the authority of God? Maybe it was because the revelations and prophecies were different to those given by O.T. prophets and the Apostles of Christ.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That is all very well, but it does not explain how one can judge between a modern prophecy that is from God and one that is not. We can tell a false prophecy, like the ones concerning Trump's victory, because they didn't come to pass, but before the election, many believed the prophecies and were shocked when Biden won the election. How come they didn't know beforehand that the prophecies were false? And why did many refuse afterward that they were false, and that Biden won the election contrary to what God wanted?

Frankly, I don't think that there is any reliable way of evaluating a prophecy if it doesn't clearly show it is non-Biblical.

If I may I interject, deception is the one thing Jesus Christ of Nazareth warned all Christians about over and over. If it DOES NOT come to pass then that Prophet or Prophetess is false. We have also been warned about such people creeping into the fold. This is all in scripture. The sad part is many are actually angry at God, believe Trump is spiritually the president or still belive he has a path to win through recounts. These decieved Christians lack discernment thus making our God look foolish to the world. This is why it is vital to test the spirit to see if it IS from God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Now that we have a a bit of a go at prophets, what about apostles? If one of the prominent qualification for an apostle is regular signs wonders, if they are absent, is the apostle a real one, or just a word-based pretender?

Apostels have an even higher calling. If one were to follow scrpture and define an Apostle according to scripture, there would be no modern day Apostels. Nevertheless, many claim to hold this office today and by past example, should receive direct revelations from God. Christian's with the gift of discernment can certainly test the spirit if the congregation is willing to hear.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

As I said in my previous post, New Testament prophecies do not carry the weight of absolute God's authority. Therefore the same condemnation does not apply if a New Testament prophet makes a mistake. O.T. prophecies became Scripture, but the thousands of New Testament prophecies never made the pages of Scripture, because they weren't meant to. They were encouraging messages to the Body of Christ to exhort, encourage and edify the believers. Because of the mixture of Holy Spirit inspiration and persons' thoughts, they needed to be evaluated. So a New Testament prophet saying "Thus says the Lord" is usurping an authority he or she doesn't have. Have you ever wondered why Body of Christ prophecies have never been written down and added to the New Testament if they were supposed to be "Thus says the Lord" ones?

Does Jesus Christ of Nazareth have absolute authority? He gave many New Testament prophecies. I am not sure how you have reached the conclusion that a New Testament prophet is allowed to be mistaken. Clearly Christ warned us of " false prophets" did He not ? I agree prophesies should be evaluated in other words, tested. This is all I am trying to get across to you. Be blessed.

 

[topher694]

Does Jesus Christ of Nazareth have absolute authority? He gave many New Testament prophecies. I am not sure how you have reached the conclusion that a New Testament prophet is allowed to be mistaken. Clearly Christ warned us of " false prophets" did He not ? I agree prophesies should be evaluated in other words, tested. This is all I am trying to get across to you. Be blessed.

You've been given several examples, scriptural and practical, you've ignored them. Jesus never said a word about the 100% accuracy standard you are purporting, He pointed to us to the fruit, and the single scripture you are using to prop that up is demonstrably a wrong interpretation.

What you are suggesting basically makes modern day prophecy/prophets impossible which rides the line of being appropriate for this forum. The original question was about modern day apostles, the discussion should not have to devolve to "they don't exist" as the only topic of conversation, yet that is basically what has happened. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think I may be the only one who has given an actual modern day answer to the original question. Doesn't mean people have to believe it, but it is an answer.