How is Verification of Apostles done today?

[Daniel Marsh]

How is Verification of Apostles done today?

 

[DerSchweik]

It isn't.

 

[Rene Loup]

Going by these two definitions at face value, this is something I personally would NOT touch with a ten-foot pole. There are many, many people out there more interested in the perks titles bring than the actual responsibilities.

Definition of APOSTLE​

Definition of apostle | Dictionary.com​

 

[DerSchweik]

Lots of arguments on this one. Here's one to which I ascribe:

In Acts 1:16-26 Peter stood up and addressed those gathered, citing Scripture (Psalms) which said that someone needed to replace Judas -
"Let his homestead be made desolate,
And let no one dwell in it";
and,
"Let another man take his office."
Peter's criterion were two - the individual had to be someone who'd been with them since the days of John the Baptist, and they needed to have witnessed Jesus' resurrection. So they drew lots for two, Justus and Matthias, and the lot fell to Matthias.

Then Paul became an apostle - c.f. I Cor 15:3ff - "I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

The way I read it, there were 12 apostles, less Judas, then Matthias, then - "last of all" and "I am least of the apostles" - Paul.

Now, there is arguably a GENERIC employ of the term "apostle" based on the definition of the word as "one sent." This generic use of the term has, imho, been abused by any number of individuals for ill or otherwise to elevate them in some manner as individuals of superior "spirituality" and "mission." I don't ascribe to that use of the term - and basically for that reason, because of how abused it's become.

Consequently, I think the term is most aptly - and PROPERLY applied to the twelve, plus Paul - and only to them.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, one of the basic requirements was the person had witnessed Jesus resurrected.

So, nowadays there are groups who have what they claim are apostles, and one requirement is that Jesus has appeared to someone they consider to be an apostle, today.

Paul saw Jesus, but I don't think Paul was with the disciples from the time of John the Baptist. But I understand that Jesus personally shared with Paul and communicated God's word to Paul so his writings are considered to be Canon Scripture by a number of groups claiming to be Christian.

 

[topher694]

First, one will have a personal call, God will speak to them in their own private prayer time.

Second, that call will eventually be confirmed by a seasoned prophet or apostle.

Most important, the flow and function of their ministry will make the call apparent without the need to announce the title.

Going from the call to the commission is not overnight. It takes years of faithfulness.

("Seeing" Jesus with one's natural eyes is not and never was a prerequisite)

 

[BobRyan]

How is Verification of Apostles done today?

Acts 1 says it has to be someone who was alive at the time of Christ and personally saw Christ.

Acts 1: 21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

 

[John Mullally]

An investigation of the Scripture reveals several individuals in addition to the original twelve who are explicitly referred to as apostles. We might call them “apostles of the throne“, “apostles of the Lamb” or “ascension-gift apostles.” A complete listing of New Testament apostles follows.

James, the half brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem church—Galatians 1:19

Barnabas–Acts 14:14

Paul–Acts 14:14 and many other references

Apollos– Corinthians 4:6-9

Timothy and Silvanus– I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6

Epaphroditus–Philippians 2:25. While the King James Version translates the word as “messenger”, the Greek word (apostolon) is actually “apostle”.

Two unnamed apostles–Second Corinthians 8:23. A brother of fame among the churches, and a brother tested–“As for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ.” Again, the Greek word is “apostoloi” but is translated here as “messengers”.

These nine now make a total of 22 (13 + 9 = 22).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How is Verification of Apostles done today?

Preaching the Gospel of Christ accompanied by signs and wonders.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

How is Verification of Apostles done today?

Seems that today an apostle is stricktly someone who prophesies. So it is easy to weed out the false prophets. Not one single error in their prophetic utterances. Be blessed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Seems that today an apostle is stricktly someone who prophesies. So it is easy to weed out the false prophets. Not one single error in their prophetic utterances. Be blessed.

The question I have about that, is how do we know that a prophecy has errors in it? On what basis can be judge it?

Could it be that some have accused prophecies of being false merely because they don't fit in with someone's theological position? What if the accuser's theological position is faulty?

If we demand that a predictive prophecy has to come to pass, what would we say to Joel's prophecy about the arrival of the Holy Spirit that took 800 years to come to pass?

What if a prophet gave a prophecy that foretells events in the future and it doesn't come to pass in their lifetime but in their grand-childrens'. What would be our attitude to that prophet and his prophecy?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Joel 2
Easy-to-Read Version
The Coming Day of the Lord
2 Blow the trumpet on Zion.
Shout a warning on my holy mountain.
Let all the people who live in the land shake with fear.
The Lord’s special day is coming;
it is near.
2 It will be a dark, gloomy day.
It will be a dark and cloudy day.
At sunrise you will see the army spread over the mountains.
It will be a great and powerful army.
There has never been anything like it before,
and there will never be anything like it again.
3 The army will destroy the land like a burning fire.
In front of them the land will be like the Garden of Eden.
Behind them the land will be like an empty desert.
Nothing will escape them.
4 They look like horses.
They run like war horses.
5 Listen to them.
It is like the noise of chariots
riding over the mountains.
It is like the noise of flames
burning the chaff.
They are a powerful people,
who are ready for war.
6 Before this army, people shake with fear.
Their faces become pale from fear.

7 The soldiers run fast.
They climb over the walls.
Each soldier marches straight ahead.
They don’t move from their path.
8 They don’t trip each other.
Each soldier walks in his own path.
If one of the soldiers is hit and falls down,
the others keep right on marching.
9 They run to the city.
They quickly climb over the wall.
They climb into the houses.
They climb through the windows like thieves.
10 Before them, earth and sky shake.
The sun and the moon become dark, and the stars stop shining.
11 The Lord calls loudly to his army.
His camp is very large.
The army obeys his commands.
His army is very powerful.
The Lord’s special day is a great and terrible day.
No one can stop it.

The Lord Tells the People to Change
12 This is the Lord’s message:
“Now come back to me with all your heart.
Cry and mourn, and don’t eat anything!
Show that you are sad for doing wrong.
13 Tear your hearts,
not your clothes.[a]”
Come back to the Lord your God.
He is kind and merciful.
He does not become angry quickly.
He has great love.
Maybe he will change his mind
about the bad punishment he planned.
14 Who knows, maybe he will change his mind
and leave behind a blessing for you.
Then you can give grain and drink offerings
to the Lord your God.

Pray to the Lord
15 Blow the trumpet at Zion.
Call for a special meeting.
Call for a special time of fasting.
16 Bring the people together.
Call for a special meeting.
Bring together the old men,
the children, and the small babies still at their mothers’ breasts.
Let the bride and her new husband
come from their bedroom.
17 Let the priests, the Lord’s servants,
cry between the porch and the altar.
All of them should say this: “Lord, have mercy on your people.
Don’t let your people be put to shame.
Don’t let other people tell jokes about your people.
Don’t let the other nations laugh at us and say,
‘Where is their God?’”

The Lord Will Restore the Land
18 Then the Lord cared very much about his land.
He felt sorry for his people.
19 The Lord spoke to his people.
He said, “I will send you grain, wine, and oil.
You will have plenty.
I will not shame you among the nations anymore.
20 No, I will force the people from the north[c] to leave your land
and make them go into a dry, empty land.
Some of them will go to the eastern sea
and some to the western sea.
They did such terrible things,
but they will be like a dead and rotting body.
There will be such a terrible smell!”

The Land Will Be Made New Again
21 Land, don’t be afraid.
Be happy and full of joy.
The Lord will do great things.
22 Animals of the field, don’t be afraid.
The desert pastures will grow grass.
The trees will grow fruit.
The fig trees and the vines will grow plenty of fruit.

23 So be happy, people of Zion.
Be joyful in the Lord your God.
He is good and will give you rain.
He will send the early rains and the late rains as before.
24 The threshing floors will be filled with wheat,
and the barrels will overflow with wine and olive oil.
25 “I, the Lord, sent my army against you.
The swarming locusts and the hopping locusts
and the destroying locusts and the cutting locusts[d] ate everything you had.
But I will pay you back
for those years of trouble.
26 Then you will have plenty to eat.
You will be full.
You will praise the name of the Lord your God.
He has done wonderful things for you.
My people will never again be ashamed.
27 You will know that I am with Israel.
You will know that I am the Lord your God.
There is no other God.
My people will never be ashamed again.”

God Will Give His Spirit to All People
28 “After this,
I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will have dreams,
and your young men will see visions.
29 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on servants, both men and women.
30 I will work wonders in the sky and on the earth.
There will be blood, fire, and thick smoke.
31 The sun will be changed into darkness,
and the moon will be as red as blood.
Then the great and fearful day of the Lord will come!
32 And everyone who trusts in the Lord[e] will be saved.
There will be survivors on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
just as the Lord said.
Yes, those left alive will be the ones
the Lord has called.

Footnotes

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Joel 3
Easy-to-Read Version
Judah’s Enemies Will Be Punished
3 “Yes, at that time I will bring back the people of Judah and Jerusalem from captivity. 2 I will also gather all the nations together. I will bring all these nations down into Jehoshaphat Valley.[a] There I will judge them. Those nations scattered my people, Israel. They forced them to live in other nations, so I will punish those nations. They divided up my land. 3 They threw lots for my people. They sold boys to buy a prostitute, and they sold girls to buy wine to drink.

4 “Tyre! Sidon! All of you areas of Philistia! You are not important to me! Are you punishing me for something I did? You might think that you are punishing me, but I will soon punish you. 5 You took my silver and gold. You took my precious treasures and put them in your temples.[c]

6 “You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks. That way you could take them far from their land. 7 You sent my people to that faraway place, but I will bring them back. And I will punish you for what you did. 8 I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah. Then they will sell them to the faraway Sabeans.[d]” This is what the Lord said.

Prepare for War
9 Announce this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Wake up the strong men!
Let all the men of war come near.
Let them come up!
10 Beat your plows into swords.
Make spears from your pruning hooks.[e]
Let the weak man say,
“I am a strong soldier.”
11 All you nations, hurry!
Come together in that place.
Lord, bring your strong soldiers.
12 Wake up, nations!
Come to Jehoshaphat Valley.
There I will sit to judge
all the surrounding nations.
13 Bring the sickle,
because the harvest is ripe.[f]
Come, walk on the grapes,
because the winepress is full.
The barrels will be full and spilling over,
because their evil is great.

14 There are many, many people in the Valley of Decision.[g]
The Lord’s special day is near in the Valley of Decision.
15 The sun and the moon will become dark.
The stars will stop shining.
16 The Lord God will shout from Zion.
He will shout from Jerusalem,
and the sky and the earth will shake.
But the Lord God will be a safe place for his people.
He will be a place of safety for the people of Israel.
17 “Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.
I live on Zion, my holy mountain.
Jerusalem will become holy.
Strangers will never pass through that city again.

A New Life for Judah Promised
18 “On that day the mountains will drip with sweet wine.
The hills will flow with milk,
and water will flow through all the empty rivers of Judah.
A fountain will come from the Lord’s Temple.
It will give water to Acacia Valley.
19 Egypt will be empty.
Edom will be an empty wilderness,
because they were cruel to the people of Judah.
They killed innocent people[h] in their country.
20 But there will always be people living in Judah.
People will live in Jerusalem through many generations.
21 Those people killed my people,
so I really will punish them!”

The Lord God will live in Zion!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Acts 2
Easy-to-Read Version

The Coming of the Holy Spirit
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a noise came from heaven. It sounded like a strong wind blowing. This noise filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw something that looked like flames of fire. The flames were separated and stood over each person there. 4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak different languages. The Holy Spirit was giving them the power to do this.

5 There were some godly Jews in Jerusalem at this time. They were from every country in the world. 6 A large crowd came together because they heard the noise. They were surprised because, as the apostles were speaking, everyone heard in their own language.

7 They were all amazed at this. They did not understand how the apostles could do this. They said, “Look! These men we hear speaking are all from Galilee. 8 But we hear them in our own languages. How is this possible? We are from all these different places: 9 Parthia, Media, Elam, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, 10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, the areas of Libya near the city of Cyrene, Rome, 11 Crete, and Arabia. Some of us were born Jews, and others have changed their religion to worship God like Jews. We are from these different countries, but we can hear these men in our own languages! We can all understand the great things they are saying about God.”

12 The people were all amazed and confused. They asked each other, “What is happening?” 13 But others were laughing at the apostles, saying they were drunk from too much wine.

Peter Speaks to the People
14 Then Peter stood up with the other eleven apostles. He spoke loudly so that all the people could hear. He said, “My Jewish brothers and all of you who live in Jerusalem, listen to me. I will tell you something you need to know. Listen carefully. 15 These men are not drunk as you think; it’s only nine o’clock in the morning. 16 But Joel the prophet wrote about what you see happening here today. This is what he wrote:

17 ‘God says: In the last days
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions.
Your old men will have special dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
on my servants, men and women,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will work wonders in the sky above.
I will cause miraculous signs on the earth below.
There will be blood, fire, and thick smoke.
20 The sun will be changed into darkness,
and the moon will be as red as blood.
Then the great and glorious day of the Lord will come.
21 And everyone who trusts in the Lord will be saved.’

22 “My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true. 23 Jesus was handed over to you, and you killed him. With the help of evil men, you nailed him to a cross. But God knew all this would happen. It was his plan—a plan he made long ago. 24 Jesus suffered the pain of death, but God made him free. He raised him from death. There was no way for death to hold him. 25 David said this about him:

‘I saw the Lord before me always;
he is at my right side to keep me safe.
26 So my heart is happy,
and the words I speak are words of joy.
Yes, even my body will live with hope,
27 because you will not leave me in the place of death.
You will not let the body of your Holy One rot in the grave.
28 You taught me how to live.
You will come close to me and give me great joy.’

29 “My brothers, I can tell you for sure about David, our great ancestor. He died, was buried, and his tomb is still here with us today. 30 He was a prophet and knew something that God had said. God had promised David that someone from his own family would sit on David’s throne as king. 31 David knew this before it happened. That is why he said this about that future king:

‘He was not left in the place of death.
His body did not rot in the grave.’

David was talking about the Messiah rising from death. 32 So Jesus is the one God raised from death. We are all witnesses of this. We saw him. 33 Jesus was lifted up to heaven. Now he is with God, at God’s right side. The Father has given the Holy Spirit to him, as he promised. So Jesus has now poured out that Spirit. This is what you see and hear. 34 David was not the one who was lifted up to heaven. David himself said,

‘The Lord God said to my Lord:
Sit at my right side,
35 until I put your enemies under your power.’

36 “So, all the people of Israel should know this for certain: God has made Jesus to be Lord and Messiah. He is the man you nailed to the cross!”

37 When the people heard this, they felt very, very sorry. They asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”

38 Peter said to them, “Change your hearts and lives and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ. Then God will forgive your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise is for you. It is also for your children and for the people who are far away. It is for everyone the Lord our God calls to himself.”

40 Peter warned them with many other words; he begged them, “Save yourselves from the evil of the people who live now!” 41 Then those who accepted what Peter said were baptized. On that day about 3000 people were added to the group of believers.

The Believers Share
42 The believers spent their time listening to the teaching of the apostles. They shared everything with each other. They ate together and prayed together. 43 Many wonders and miraculous signs were happening through the apostles, and everyone felt great respect for God. 44 All the believers stayed together and shared everything. 45 They sold their land and the things they owned. Then they divided the money and gave it to those who needed it. 46 The believers shared a common purpose, and every day they spent much of their time together in the Temple area. They also ate together in their homes. They were happy to share their food and ate with joyful hearts. 47 The believers praised God and were respected by all the people. More and more people were being saved every day, and the Lord was adding them to their group.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

and your problem with Joel is what?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The question I have about that, is how do we know that a prophecy has errors in it? On what basis can be judge it?

Could it be that some have accused prophecies of being false merely because they don't fit in with someone's theological position? What if the accuser's theological position is faulty?

If we demand that a predictive prophecy has to come to pass, what would we say to Joel's prophecy about the arrival of the Holy Spirit that took 800 years to come to pass?

What if a prophet gave a prophecy that foretells events in the future and it doesn't come to pass in their lifetime but in their grand-childrens'. What would be our attitude to that prophet and his prophecy?

Well I am only quoting the threshold given to us in scripture.
17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

 

[BobRyan]

The question I have about that, is how do we know that a prophecy has errors in it? On what basis can be judge it?

The Bible has a list of texts dealing with testing prophets.

When looking at them start off with this -

Moses was a true prophet even though he told Israel that they would all go to the promised land of Canaan and not die in the desert.

Jonah was a true prophet even though his message was "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed"

Jeremiah 18 says that certain prophecies of God are conditional.
7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the Lord says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!”’

 

[topher694]

Well I am only quoting the threshold given to us in scripture.
17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Uggg, what you are suggesting here is an incorrect and extremely narrow interpretation of this scripture.

Accuracy is not the primary measure prophecy. I know that will ruffle feathers, but it simply is not. False prophets very commonly will accurately predict things, so that cannot be the primary measuring stick. It goes much deeper than accuracy, it's about the heart of the word and the fruit it produces.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

and your problem with Joel is what?

I don't have a problem with Joel. I used Joel as an example of a prophecy that didn't come to pass until 800 years after it was given, and there are parts of the prophecy that still haven't been fulfilled.

According to the attitude of modern prophecy critics if Joel had given his prophecy these days, he would be accused of being a false prophet because it didn't come to pass in the foreseeable future. So, these heresy-hunting false prophet witch hunters would have a problem with it.

 

[topher694]

I don't have a problem with Joel. I used Joel as an example of a prophecy that didn't come to pass until 800 years after it was given, and there are parts of the prophecy that still haven't been fulfilled.

According to the attitude of modern prophecy critics if Joel had given his prophecy these days, he would be accused of being a false prophet because it didn't come to pass in the foreseeable future. So, these heresy-hunting false prophet witch hunters would have a problem with it.

Amen! It's getting so crazy.