How is it possible to worship a false God?

Rusticus · Sep 16, 2005

vedickings said:
If there is only one God, then hows its possible to worship a false God?

I mean, what about people who can't hear and see, how do that know what God they are worshipping? They would most likely worship the only one God.

Very interesting thought.

And I do agree with you in the sense that in my opinion all religions focus on a slightly different manifestation (or aspect) of the one God.

But I would guess that there are probably very few people (christian or otherwise) who would be of that opinion. (There was a thread here not long ago where the majority were of the opinion that the God of Islam and the God of Christianity is not the same god....)

satay · Sep 16, 2005

Rusticus said:
Very interesting thought.

And I do agree with you in the sense that in my opinion all religions focus on a slightly different manifestation (or aspect) of the one God.

But I would guess that there are probably very few people (christian or otherwise) who would be of that opinion. (There was a thread here not long ago where the majority were of the opinion that the God of Islam and the God of Christianity is not the same god....)

Namaste Rusticus,

Just curious...would "these" few christians e.g. be considered "Liberals" in your religion?

Rusticus · Sep 16, 2005

satay said:
...Just curious...would "these" few christians e.g. be considered "Liberals" in your religion?

I can't actually answer that.

"Liberal" means different things to different people. But "these few" would certainly not be considered "Fundamentalists".

Having said that, I do consider myself as a "Liberal" (and not only as far as religion is concerned) in the sense of the dictionary definition of liberal: "Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry."

QuantaCura · Sep 16, 2005

The most popular false gods worshipped nowadays, at least in the west, are wealth and self.

Worshipping Jesus is not idolatry because He is the True God--He's the same substance as the the Father and the Holy Spirit.

arunma · Sep 17, 2005

vedickings said:
So Jesus is still use to worship God right, speaking of idol worshipping I see no different. But what I was saying in my op, is the how can there be more then one God if what you are worshipping is God, no matter the name and form, such as Jesus?

One worships the true God by worshiping the God who created the universe, and one is saved by confessing that Christ Jesus is Lord. The problem with Hinduism is that it does not acknowledge any God who created the universe, but rather it proports a pantheon of gods, some of which are indirectly responsible for creation. Besides that, Hindus invent false stories about these gods, and make physical images of them for the purpose of worship. Some people here have pointed out that having greed for money or adoration for celebrities constitutes idolatry. While these people are correct, the fact remains that making cared images of false gods for the purpose of worship is also idolatry, and it doesn't honor God. That is why we say that you don't worship God.

Rusticus · Sep 17, 2005

arunma said:
One worships the true God by worshiping the God who created the universe, and one is saved by confessing that Christ Jesus is Lord. The problem with Hinduism is that it does not acknowledge any God who created the universe, but rather it proports a pantheon of gods, some of which are indirectly responsible for creation. Besides that, Hindus invent false stories about these gods, and make physical images of them for the purpose of worship. Some people here have pointed out that having greed for money or adoration for celebrities constitutes idolatry. While these people are correct, the fact remains that making cared images of false gods for the purpose of worship is also idolatry, and it doesn't honor God. That is why we say that you don't worship God.

I am under the impression that Hinduism is a monotheistic religion, with the different "Gods" just being different manifestations of the One God.

Can somebody either confirm or correct my impression, please.

(To a casual outside observer even christianity would appear to have three gods, and not one.)

As far as making images for worship I have this to say:

I have never seen anyone actually worship an image as if it were God. In my view the image is a representation, or symbol of God, but not God itself.

Even an Animist does not actually worship a tree (or a mountain, or whatever), but the spirit that is believed to reside there.

When I was working in an office I had a photo of my wife and children on my desk. Did that mean that I loved the photo? Of course not, the photo was a representation of my family that I love.

Abdurrahim · Sep 17, 2005

JanisL said:
The question should be - how is it possible to worship a true God?
Because what most of the people worship are only images in their own mind.

I agree to some point with this .

In islam we try to understand Names and attributes of God to understand his greatness to some extent .

It is forbidden to think about his person because mind cannot grasp it .

MahaSudarshanChakra · Sep 17, 2005

arunma said:
One worships the true God by worshiping the God who created the universe, and one is saved by confessing that Christ Jesus is Lord. The problem with Hinduism is that it does not acknowledge any God who created the universe, but rather it proports a pantheon of gods, some of which are indirectly responsible for creation. Besides that, Hindus invent false stories about these gods, and make physical images of them for the purpose of worship. Some people here have pointed out that having greed for money or adoration for celebrities constitutes idolatry. While these people are correct, the fact remains that making cared images of false gods for the purpose of worship is also idolatry, and it doesn't honor God. That is why we say that you don't worship God.

No wonder you are an ex-Hindu. You dont know a whit about Hinduism.

Hinduism does not support a pantheon of God, and if you want to think it that way, it is done in the same vein as the christian trinity.

Brahman alone is the cause of all causes, and is the conclusion of the vedantic philosophy. The brahman has no second whatsoever.

MahaSudarshanChakra · Sep 17, 2005

Abdurrahim said:
I agree to some point with this .

In islam we try to understand Names and attributes of God to understand his greatness to some extent .

It is forbidden to think about his person because mind cannot grasp it .

So what are you supposed to think when you are praying to God? Human mind cannot grasp anything about God, so I am not supposed to think of God at all?

If you think of something during praying, that constitutes "idol" worship of some kind. If you dont think of anything, it amounts to no praying at all - it is just an emotionless exercise.

arunma · Sep 17, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
No wonder you are an ex-Hindu. You dont know a whit about Hinduism.

I'm sorry, but the Hindu religion does not have the capability of retaining all members who have sufficient knowledge of it.

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Hinduism does not support a pantheon of God, and if you want to think it that way, it is done in the same vein as the christian trinity.

Brahman alone is the cause of all causes, and is the conclusion of the vedantic philosophy. The brahman has no second whatsoever.

The problem is this: I've never found support for that statement in any Hindu scripture, or in the preachings of any priest. Your claim of monism seems to be something I find only in Hindu apologetics, because even many Hindus believe that the various gods are separate entities.

In any case, the nature of the Hindu gods is irrelevant. The question posed is how it is possible to worship false gods. And my answer is that anyone who makes a carved image of a deity and worships it is thus worshiping a false god.

sefroth77 · Sep 17, 2005

arunma said:
I'm sorry, but the Hindu religion does not have the capability of retaining all members who have sufficient knowledge of it..

The problem is this: I've never found support for that statement in any Hindu scripture, or in the preachings of any priest. Your claim of monism seems to be something I find only in Hindu apologetics, because even many Hindus believe that the various gods are separate entities.

It means you have not read any of the scriptures.

MahaSudarshanChakra · Sep 17, 2005

arunma said:
I'm sorry, but the Hindu religion does not have the capability of retaining all members who have sufficient knowledge of it.

Yes, as Hindus, we recognise people pick religions that are governed by their karma. A christian is also a Hindu in some sense, just that his spiritual inclinations are lesser and is more materialistic and that is why non Hindus are referred to as mlecchas - essentially materialistic people. It should come to you as no surprise that christian nations are the most wealthy and most materialstic.

The problem is this: I've never found support for that statement in any Hindu scripture, or in the preachings of any priest. Your claim of monism seems to be something I find only in Hindu apologetics, because even many Hindus believe that the various gods are separate entities.

You have read no scripture. I am not a monist - I am a monotheist. The Hindu scripture is totally biased in favour of monotheism and there is only Brahman who is referred to as Narayana or Vishnu. Other Gods are just various forms of Lord Vishnu. For eg: Lord Shiva represents knowledge about Vishnu, Mother Durga his creative powers, Goddess Lakshmi is his femine grace and motherly affection towards his bhaktas and so on. There is only one God in Hinduism - Lord Vishnu and all other Gods are just various forms of him. A mere reading of the Bhagavat Gita should convince you that Lord Krishna representing Lord Vishnu is the supreme being - there is no second.

In any case, the nature of the Hindu gods is irrelevant. The question posed is how it is possible to worship false gods. And my answer is that anyone who makes a carved image of a deity and worships it is thus worshiping a false god.

You make a mental image dont you? Some symbolism is needed for the finite mind to capture the infinite. The inability of some religions to even grasp these basics is why we call them "inferior" religions. ( not false).

For those who are able to visualize God without a symbol, Hinduism prescribes the higher spiritual path of Yoga. You have neither Yoga nor any symbolism. Do you call Yoga as idol worship? ( I am referring to the Raja Yoga and not the physical exercises).

BourbonFromHeaven · Sep 17, 2005

I find that, most Christians define Jesus ( in relation to the Trinity ) in the exact same way, I feel people worshiped the Golden Calf.

To each their own

arunma · Sep 17, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Yes, as Hindus, we recognise people pick religions that are governed by their karma. A christian is also a Hindu in some sense, just that his spiritual inclinations are lesser and is more materialistic and that is why non Hindus are referred to as mlecchas - essentially materialistic people. It should come to you as no surprise that christian nations are the most wealthy and most materialstic.

It appears that you don't know much about the Christian religion (no offense intended by that statement). Christianity doesn't encourage materialism. In fact, I could think of several Christian nations which are not wealthy, including Mexico, Ethiopia, and South Africa.

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
You have read no scripture. I am not a monist - I am a monotheist. The Hindu scripture is totally biased in favour of monotheism and there is only Brahman who is referred to as Narayana or Vishnu. Other Gods are just various forms of Lord Vishnu. For eg: Lord Shiva represents knowledge about Vishnu, Mother Durga his creative powers, Goddess Lakshmi is his femine grace and motherly affection towards his bhaktas and so on. There is only one God in Hinduism - Lord Vishnu and all other Gods are just various forms of him. A mere reading of the Bhagavat Gita should convince you that Lord Krishna representing Lord Vishnu is the supreme being - there is no second.

Well, if you say so. I had a hard time gleaning monotheism from the Gita, Ramayana, and various other scriptures that I've read. But if you say you're a monotheist, I see no reason to argue the point. However, you're one of the few Hindus I've seen who specifically claims monotheism. As I already said, the number of gods that Hindus worship is irrelevant to the point at hand.

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
You make a mental image dont you? Some symbolism is needed for the finite mind to capture the infinite. The inability of some religions to even grasp these basics is why we call them "inferior" religions. ( not false).

You'll just have to trust me when I say that I most certainly do not make mental images of God the Father. He has no form. I'm also opposed to making any images of Jesus Christ.

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
For those who are able to visualize God without a symbol, Hinduism prescribes the higher spiritual path of Yoga. You have neither Yoga nor any symbolism. Do you call Yoga as idol worship? ( I am referring to the Raja Yoga and not the physical exercises).

Yoga is only idol worship if there is an idol present. However, it still constitutes worship of false gods if the practice causes its adherants to give honor to other gods. vbmenu_register("postmenu_18545935", true);

urnotme · Sep 17, 2005

vedickings said:
If there is only one God, then hows its possible to worship a false God?

I mean, what about people who can't hear and see, how do that know what God they are worshipping? They would most likely worship the only one God.

It's really not possible to worship something that isn't there.If you think you are worshiping god but you're not you're worshiping something else which would be your god. If it's not the true god it's a false god.

MahaSudarshanChakra · Sep 17, 2005

arunma said:
It appears that you don't know much about the Christian religion (no offense intended by that statement). Christianity doesn't encourage materialism. In fact, I could think of several Christian nations which are not wealthy, including Mexico, Ethiopia, and South Africa.

But most christian nations are, is my point. One or two isolated examples show nothing. I know Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the heaven. So how many christians are living like this preaching? Saying one thing and following another does not cut it. My objection holds. Even in India, christians are economically much ahead of Hindus or muslims.

arunma said:
Well, if you say so. I had a hard time gleaning monotheism from the Gita, Ramayana, and various other scriptures that I've read. But if you say you're a monotheist, I see no reason to argue the point. However, you're one of the few Hindus I've seen who specifically claims monotheism. As I already said, the number of gods that Hindus worship is irrelevant to the point at hand.

Can you quote one verse from the Gita where it has been claimed anybody other than Krishna (Vishnu) is the supreme? If you cant, then what did you read in the Gita?

arunma said:
You'll just have to trust me when I say that I most certainly do not make mental images of God the Father. He has no form. I'm also opposed to making any images of Jesus Christ.

Then your prayers are an unemotional exercise.

If I want to love God like my father, I have to imagine him like my father. If I want to see God as my brother, I have to imagine him as my brother. Without these, there cant be any attachment to God. That is why Hindus give human forms to God, it makes us love God like a fatherly, motherly, brotherly love. The idol is symbolic of this love - so you mean you cant love God in whatever way you want? That is limiting God, in our view.

arunma said:
Yoga is only idol worship if there is an idol present. However, it still constitutes worship of false gods if the practice causes its adherants to give honor to other gods. vbmenu_register("postmenu_18545935", true);

Do you know what Yoga is? How is it related to idols? In Yoga, samadhi is done on the one and only supreme God, whatever name you call it. We call it Vishnu, which means the all pervading spirit.

satay · Sep 19, 2005

Rusticus said:
I am under the impression that Hinduism is a monotheistic religion, with the different "Gods" just being different manifestations of the One God.

Can somebody either confirm or correct my impression, please.

Yes, confirmed true.

(To a casual outside observer even christianity would appear to have three gods, and not one.)

Yes, true.

As far as making images for worship I have this to say:

I have never seen anyone actually worship an image as if it were God. In my view the image is a representation, or symbol of God, but not God itself.

Even an Animist does not actually worship a tree (or a mountain, or whatever), but the spirit that is believed to reside there.

When I was working in an office I had a photo of my wife and children on my desk. Did that mean that I loved the photo? Of course not, the photo was a representation of my family that I love.

Perfect! I wish more people could grasp this basic idea. Even an uneducated villager in india knows that when he bows down his head in front of a red statue of Lord Hanuman that he is not actually worshipping the stone...he is using his mind to focus on God. But somehow this simple fact escapes the western religious leaders who by the way have phds and they use this to promote their own propaganda that hindus worship many gods!

The vedic sutra "EKam Sat, Vipra Bahudha Vadanti" is a very hard pill to swallow for some very educated beings. Google it if you are interested in knowing what it means.

satay

MahaSudarshanChakra · Sep 19, 2005

satay said:
Perfect! I wish more people could grasp this basic idea. Even an uneducated villager in india knows that when he bows down his head in front of a red statue of Lord Hanuman that he is not actually worshipping the stone...he is using his mind to focus on God. But somehow this simple fact escapes the western religious leaders who by the way have phds and they use this to promote their own propaganda that hindus worship many gods!

The vedic sutra "EKam Sat, Vipra Bahudha Vadanti" is a very hard pill to swallow for some very educated beings. Google it if you are interested in knowing what it means.

satay

Well put satay.

The ultimate way to salvation prescribed in Hinduism is to be able to meditate upon God without interruption of any kind. Such intense effort will lead to realization of the self(atma) and followed by realization of God.

How does one meditate upon God without knowing what God is? Hence God is imagined in some way which pleases the heart and meditated upon. How can one ensure that his mind will remain fixed upon God with love all the time? By imagining God to be a lovable human like a father, a child, a mother etc. The purpose of the idols is essentially this. And God is present in idols too, hence even worshipping an idol as God itself is not something to be looked upon as far the principles of Hinduism stand. An iidol is not just a piece of stone - God is indeed present in them like he is present in every living being.

Of course, if you believe that somebody else already did all the meditation for you, somebody else also ensured that your salvation is already for you and that you do not ever even need to think of God or meditate on HIM with love - then it is upto you it. That is your karma. Thinking that the fields will reap and sow themselves is not our belief.

Saraswati-Devi · Sep 19, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
No wonder you are an ex-Hindu. You dont know a whit about Hinduism.

Hinduism does not support a pantheon of God, and if you want to think it that way, it is done in the same vein as the christian trinity.

Brahman alone is the cause of all causes, and is the conclusion of the vedantic philosophy. The brahman has no second whatsoever.

satay · Sep 19, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
No wonder you are an ex-Hindu. You dont know a whit about Hinduism.

Hinduism does not support a pantheon of God, and if you want to think it that way, it is done in the same vein as the christian trinity.

Brahman alone is the cause of all causes, and is the conclusion of the vedantic philosophy. The brahman has no second whatsoever.

Obviously if a being had the spiritual capacity, maturity and the karma they would already be practicing dharma.

satay

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