How is it possible for a man to be responsible under Calvinism?

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sdowney717

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Ofcourse, God can never be accused of committing evil.
Why is Satan never ever mentioned on here, not to glorify Him, but to explain why confusion abounds on these pages, is a mystery to me. But maybe not such a mystery when I read what God has to say;

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the God of this world has blinded the MINDS of unbelievers to keep them from SEEING the light.

Yes, the evil one snatches away the word FROM those who do not understand it.

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path

Jesus spoke to the disciples clearly the message, a true explained revelation.
But to those to whom the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom are not given, (given here is an act of the Father's revelation into your spirit and mind these secrets of His), they are spoken to in parables. For what end?

"Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them"

This has serious implications for understanding being one of the called out ones from the world, that such ones have been given the secrets of the kingdom of God, AND this knowledge has not been given to all. And for these others who have not been given these secrets, what they have will be TAKEN from them. Their destiny is hell fire. They loose everything, whatever they had is gone. Even the natural life teaches you this as death takes all none can take anything with them when they die, EXCEPT for the things that they did in the power of God working inward and outward in their life.

There's always an EXTREME contrast, as far as east is from west, between saved and not saved, the people of God vs the people of the world. Their is no inbetweenness, each ones final destination is certain and determined by those to whom the secrets, that is God's truth have been revealed by the Father.

Whole section
Matthew 10
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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If God does not work in man when a man acts antagonistically, then, it would seem that the man is able to effect his own will.

...which is what the Westminster Confession has said from the beginning. God, being the first cause, foreordains all things and makes them certain. But with regard to the second cause, God is only efficacious in the actions which are in accordance with His character, and is permissive among those which are sinful (although being foreordained).

Same issue. This argument allows man a will that is not subject to God's predetermination. Arminians would agree.

Incorrect. You are leaving out the phrase "It renders the event infallibly certain". God foreordains the event without removing the will of the creature, and yet it is made apart from the will of the creature. Therefore there is no chance with God, there is no way that the event could be anything other than what has been decreed.

If man is permitted to sin and such occurrences of sinning are not God's will, then the man must be acting against that part of himself (the man's self) that God implanted in the man. If that is true then it surely must be the case that the converse is realizable - that a man may act against the fallen nature that he has inherited since the fall. Does this not prove that anyone, despite their tendency to sin, can in fact turn to God?

It certainly does NOT prove that man can turn to God despite sin. I would also like to point out that your argument is falling quit close to full Pelagianism, as if no amount of prevenient grace is needed to supplement man in his choice of following after God.

Understand that Shedd NEVER said sinning is against the will of God, if we define will as His ultimate approval and disapproval of what actually comes to pass in history. Read again:

"It should be observed in permitting sin, God permits what he forbids. The permissive decree is not indicative of what God approves and is pleasing to him. God decrees what he hates and abhors, when he brings sin within the scope of his universal plan."

In the definition above, God wills, permits, and decrees that sin happen. He does so in light of His Divine Decree, which is to bring Himself glory through the riches of His grace shown towards us in the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

I don't have a problem with this. In attempting to explain the OP, you (in quoting Mr. Shedd) seem to be edging towards the Arminian position.

Not at all. I think you are confused on what Shedd is proposing.

Of all things:
Divine Decree = God foreordained all things for all time and was approving that they become reality, and set His plan in stone, being immutable and unchangeable.

Of the Divine Decree:
Efficacious Decree = What God actively brings about
Permissive Decree = What God passively brings about or permits to happen

And there are decrees that continue on, subdividing the categories.

And yet Shedd has already argued that the sin that is permitted is not God's intention. 'God permits what he forbids'. On the one hand God permits a man to sin and on the other hand evil is...'done by the Lord'.

One can be forgiven for being confused.

Again, try not to interact with Shedd based on something he isn't saying. It forces you to be dishonest and misrepresent him, and therefore your conversation becomes worthless.

"By reason of His Permissive Decree, God has absolute control over moral evil". Nothing happens that God has not decreed, that He has not approved, that He has not been willing of, that He has not permitted, that He does not have a purpose in. In these senses, there is absolutely no contradiction in Shedd's words and Scripture, just in your misrepresentation of them.

I understand Shedd to say that there is little in the permissive decree, maybe nothing other than sin itself. For God to destroy a city is not evil (it may be interpreted as evil by those in the city), but God has complete control over His creation, and there is no way to put God in your debt so that He owes you something, especially in that we have sinned against Him and deserve hell. In that sense, does not the potter have the right to do what He wishes with the clay, whether that be to show His righteousness in our destruction, or show His grace in our salvation? So if we say "yes", does that not put this in the category of the efficacious decree?
 
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Skala

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Jan has said man is responsible for sin himself, PERIOD!

That's what Calvinists believe too.

This excludes any predetermination on God's part.

That's a non sequitur.

Or do you believe God has preordained some to heaven and some to hell without taking into account how man will live?

The way all men live, all men will go to hell if it's based on how he lives.

Or does God look down the corridor of time and and sees how man will live and then preordain some to heaven and some to hell?

That's called salvation by works, which is unthinkable heresy.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Or does God look down the corridor of time and and sees how man will live and then preordain some to heaven and some to hell?

This is a denial of innate omniscience. You are proposing that God has foreknowledge of certain events by inquiring of the event, or possibly the mind of the volitional being. This is an inquiry, which necessarily adds something to the knowledge of God which once was not. But we know this is impossible, as God's omniscience is an attribute, an innate quality apart from inquiry.

I may also ask what the purpose would be in His preordaining in the scheme you have provided. If God were to "look down the corridor of time", and let man live according to his own will, and see that certain men would choose Him and others wouldn't, then what effect would predestination or preordination have at all? It wouldn't change anything, it wouldn't be causal in any sense of the term. Man's freedom will have run its course, free from all destiny and ordination. It makes as much sense as for people to come into my house with guns and tell me that they are going to steal all of my belongings, and I then say to them "I permit you to take my belongings". At that point it would make no difference, or even sense, for me to make a declaration over the situation since I have absolutely no power over it.
 
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Skala

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So I can choose any one of the toffees then? I won't desire and therefore choose the one that, supposedly, God predetermined I would desire and therefore choose?

Your mistake is thinking in "either-or" terms.
 
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janxharris

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Yes, the evil one snatches away the word FROM those who do not understand it.



Jesus spoke to the disciples clearly the message, a true explained revelation.
But to those to whom the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom are not given, (given here is an act of the Father's revelation into your spirit and mind these secrets of His), they are spoken to in parables. For what end?

"Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them"

This has serious implications for understanding being one of the called out ones from the world, that such ones have been given the secrets of the kingdom of God, AND this knowledge has not been given to all. And for these others who have not been given these secrets, what they have will be TAKEN from them. Their destiny is hell fire. They loose everything, whatever they had is gone. Even the natural life teaches you this as death takes all none can take anything with them when they die, EXCEPT for the things that they did in the power of God working inward and outward in their life.

There's always an EXTREME contrast, as far as east is from west, between saved and not saved, the people of God vs the people of the world. Their is no inbetweenness, each ones final destination is certain and determined by those to whom the secrets, that is God's truth have been revealed by the Father.

Whole section
Matthew 10

Matthew 13 cannot teach what you say it teaches unless you think Judas was elect. Do you?

Mark 4:10-11
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
 
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janxharris

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Your mistake is thinking in "either-or" terms.

Please would you explain?
I note you have not answered my question.

So I can choose any one of the toffees then? I won't desire and therefore choose the one that, supposedly, God predetermined I would desire and therefore choose?
 
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Skala

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Please would you explain?
I note you have not answered my question.

So I can choose any one of the toffees then?


You can choose whatever toffee you want

I won't desire and therefore choose the one that, supposedly, God predetermined I would desire and therefore choose?

You, like the rest of us humans, will end up doing whatever God's purpose is. He's God. We are not.

He works all things in accordance to the counsel of His own will.

His will
Not your will
His will
Not Janx's will
His will.

It's right there in the Bible. Why is it so hard for you to affirm?

He works all things according to His will.

End of debate, right?
 
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harrisrose77

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Yes, the evil one snatches away the word FROM those who do not understand it.



Jesus spoke to the disciples clearly the message, a true explained revelation.
But to those to whom the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom are not given, (given here is an act of the Father's revelation into your spirit and mind these secrets of His), they are spoken to in parables. For what end?

"Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them"

This has serious implications for understanding being one of the called out ones from the world, that such ones have been given the secrets of the kingdom of God, AND this knowledge has not been given to all. And for these others who have not been given these secrets, what they have will be TAKEN from them. Their destiny is hell fire. They loose everything, whatever they had is gone. Even the natural life teaches you this as death takes all none can take anything with them when they die, EXCEPT for the things that they did in the power of God working inward and outward in their life.

There's always an EXTREME contrast, as far as east is from west, between saved and not saved, the people of God vs the people of the world. Their is no inbetweenness, each ones final destination is certain and determined by those to whom the secrets, that is God's truth have been revealed by the Father.

Whole section
Matthew 10

Thank you for this.
I understand most of what you have claimed.
 
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CalvinistSamurai

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One thing I've seen in these conversations that has piqued my curiosity is the use of "to foreknow" as if this word is referring to prescience. This is definitely an incorrect understanding of the term.
Proginwskw is used three times in Scripture with God as the subject (Rom 8:29, 11:2; 1 Pet 1:20), and all three times a person or persons are the direct object.
The root word, ginwskw, is used 11 times in Scripture with either God or Christ as the subject and a person or persons as the direct object (Matt 7:23; Luke 10:22; John 2:24; 5:42; 8:55; 10:14-15, 27; 14:7; 17:25; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19). Every one of these uses with God as the subject and a person or persons as the direct object speaks of a relational knowledge. Not once could the use of ginwskw in these cases mean "to know about," or "to be aware of the existence of." I could add to the count by including uses where a person or people are the subject and God, or a member of the Trinity, is the direct object. The same rule applies.
When we see how the root is applied, and we see that the derivative, proginwskw, in its Biblical usage when God is the subject, *only* has persons as the object, we must conclude that proginwskw only has relational value. Never could it be translated as "to know about beforehand" when being used of God.
 
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Ask Seek Knock

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You can choose whatever toffee you want

You, like the rest of us humans, will end up doing whatever God's purpose is. He's God. We are not.

This flat out contradicts the Bible; you have it backwards. God' purpose will be determined according to our ways and deeds.

Zechariah 1:6
As the Lord of hosts purposed to do to us in accordance with our ways and our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

God's purpose or determination is according to our ways and deeds. God will determine how to deal with man in accordance to man's acceptance or rejection of His truth.

He works all things in accordance to the counsel of His own will.

His will
Not your will
His will
Not Janx's will
His will.

It's right there in the Bible. Why is it so hard for you to affirm?

He works all things according to His will.

End of debate, right?

End of debate? Is that God's will also, or man's?

God's will is for man to cast away his transgressions, put his sin away from himself, and keep himself pure. So tell me how is it that man's will overrides God's will in these situations?

Why is it so hard for man to read God's truth in Zechariah, yet still believe God purposes and man acts accordingly? The eternal truth is man acts and then God purposes and determines how to deal with man.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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This flat out contradicts the Bible; you have it backwards. God' purpose will be determined according to our ways and deeds.

The impenetrable citadel of man's free will, which God must bow down to lest He somehow taint the actions of man and cause some sort of injustice among us.

Yeah right.

Zechariah 1:6
As the Lord of hosts purposed to do to us in accordance with our ways and our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

God's purpose or determination is according to our ways and deeds. God will determine how to deal with man in accordance to man's acceptance or rejection of His truth.

Horrible, horrible exegesis.

"As the Lord of hosts purposed to do to us in accordance with our ways and our deeds, so He has dealt with us."

i.e. He will judge according to what man does. Nothing about God's purpose being equal to or according to our deeds.
 
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Iamtheway

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One thing I've seen in these conversations that has piqued my curiosity is the use of "to foreknow" as if this word is referring to prescience. This is definitely an incorrect understanding of the term.
Proginwskw is used three times in Scripture with God as the subject (Rom 8:29, 11:2; 1 Pet 1:20), and all three times a person or persons are the direct object.
The root word, ginwskw, is used 11 times in Scripture with either God or Christ as the subject and a person or persons as the direct object (Matt 7:23; Luke 10:22; John 2:24; 5:42; 8:55; 10:14-15, 27; 14:7; 17:25; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19). Every one of these uses with God as the subject and a person or persons as the direct object speaks of a relational knowledge. Not once could the use of ginwskw in these cases mean "to know about," or "to be aware of the existence of." I could add to the count by including uses where a person or people are the subject and God, or a member of the Trinity, is the direct object. The same rule applies.
When we see how the root is applied, and we see that the derivative, proginwskw, in its Biblical usage when God is the subject, *only* has persons as the object, we must conclude that proginwskw only has relational value. Never could it be translated as "to know about beforehand" when being used of God.

Why would you ned to may it so complicated. "Whosoever will may come", and "God so loved the whole world that WHOSOEVER believes". That is everyone. ALL. Not just some limited amount of people which are special which is what you all beleive.
 
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Could you please refresh my memory as to which verse "Whosoever will may come" is from, in reference to salvation?

If you're going to quote my post, at least respond to what I said. Show me a scripture where God or Christ "know" a person and it only means that they "know about" the person.
 
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Also, "whosoever" in John 3:16 is actually a translation of three Greek words, pas ho pisteuwn, "all the believing [ones]." It's a simple statement that the ones who believe will be saved. The Greek makes no mention or even hint of choice on Gods part or our part. It is an entirely neutral statement.
 
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Ask Seek Knock

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That's what Calvinists believe too.

Do Calvinists also believe God determines how to deal with man according to his ways and deeds, that is, man acts, and God then determines whether he lives or dies?

That's a non sequitur.

So you won't say if the Calvinist view excludes predetermination concerning God dealings with man?

The way all men live, all men will go to hell if it's based on how he lives.

Again, you do not include what the Bible says when you give such a view.

Ezekiel 18:21 But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.


That's called salvation by works, which is unthinkable heresy.

Surely you aren't calling Ezekiel a heretic, are you? See bolded part of the passage above.
 
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Iamtheway

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Could you please refresh my memory as to which verse "Whosoever will may come" is from, in reference to salvation?

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered" - Joel 2:32

You don't seem to now you're bible super well.

If you're going to quote my post, at least respond to what I said. Show me a scripture where God or Christ "know" a person and it only means that they "know about" the person.

Your a Clavinist which means you believe certain people are saved for no reason. If you want to talk about Scriptire then you should start there.

Also, "whosoever" in John 3:16 is actually a translation of three Greek words, pas ho pisteuwn, "all the believing [ones]." It's a simple statement that the ones who believe will be saved. The Greek makes no mention or even hint of choice on Gods part or our part. It is an entirely neutral statement.

The word whosoever has been there since the beginning and pretty much every translation. No one else seems to have a problem with it except the calvinists.
 
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Ask Seek Knock

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The impenetrable citadel of man's free will, which God must bow down to lest He somehow taint the actions of man and cause some sort of injustice among us.

How is my free will telling God to bow down before me? You all have some pretty wild ideas.

Horrible, horrible exegesis.

I don't exegete; I read with the reasoning God provided and let Him enlighten me, through asking, seeking, and knocking.
"As the Lord of hosts purposed to do to us in accordance with our ways and our deeds, so He has dealt with us."

i.e. He will judge according to what man does. Nothing about God's purpose being equal to or according to our deeds.

How strange, that is exactly what it says - God purposes or determines how He deals with man according to his ways and deeds. When God purposes something, that is His purpose; when He determines something, that is His determination. Man shouldn't let his beliefs override God's truth.
 
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