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And you would be absolutely certain that it was wrong. Without reference to God. And so would I. Is that what you think absolute morality entails? When you are absolutely certain about something? When you know it's wrong?I agree. Read my first post.
I agree that murder is more than a preference for scotch or bourbon, but that is only because it has objective grounding, whereas a preference for scotch or bourbon does not. A cannibal has a preference for murder and they might have a preference for human flesh that is not unlike a preference for beef or chicken. Without objective grounding, an atheist would have no way to establish that cannibal are morally wrong to do what they prefer.Will you guys please stop talking about preferences? This isn't a debate on film genres or whether scotch is preferable to bourbon. It's morality. I have never said, don't say and will never say 'I kinda prefer Not Murder myself. But hey, that's just me. You be you!' That's nonsensical.
Sorry, I am missing the nuance between your first and second sentence because it sounds like you denied that the fact that murder is wrong means that it is absolute and then you said it is absolute. What grounds do you have for asserting that facts are absolute while morally is not? Do you affirm or deny the existence of moral facts?But the fact that I know that murder is wrong does not make it an absolute aspect of morality. It's the FACT that I know it's wrong is absolute. Not the act itself. Facts are absolute. Morality is not. Even if we all agree. Even if we have all agreed. Even if we will always agree.
Morality in inherently a theistic concept because it an appeals to a standard above human opinion, so if I were an atheist with no concept of theism, then I would consistently deny existence of morality. My conscience my cause me to feel guilty for doing certain things, but I would not consider myself to have a moral obligation to do the things that my conscience is not bothered by or avoid doing the things that cause me to feel guilty.Let me ask you this. Let's say you were brought up in a situation where there was no concept of God. You have no idea about Christianity or Jesus or the bible. There is no scripture to guide you. No dogma to instruct you. No authority to whom you can turn. But you still have to make moral decisions. Would you say that your conscience would instruct you? That the little voice inside that says 'no, this wrong' would guide your moral decisions?
If you wish to be taken seriously by someone who does not share your religious beliefs, you need to do better than quoting scriptures as a means of supporting (otherwise) empty claims.He doesn’t need to be authenticated.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
— Romans 1:20
Lol.
Morality in inherently a theistic concept because it an appeals to a standard above human opinion, so if I were an atheist with no concept of theism, then I would consistently deny existence of morality.
My conscience my cause me to feel guilty for doing certain things, but I would not consider myself to have a moral obligation to do the things that my conscience is not bothered by or avoid doing the things that cause me to feel guilty.
I’m not called to convince you. I’m called to present the truth.Why should we trust Paul? I can't think of any good reasons.
If we read the rest of that chapter and see what Paul thinks of those that "don't see" like me, they clearly don't apply to me. None of those things he claims will happen to someone like me that rejects Paul's vision of god happened to me. I suspect it is similar for other non-believers and I have heard many say so. So much for Paul and the opening of "Romans".
(A friendly notice to anyone that would respond. Argument by "Romans 1" is perhaps the *least* convincing argument you can make to a non-believer, especially if we have even the slightest amount of self-awareness. Let me repeat: least convincing argument.)
My post was clear as to the point I was making.And you would be absolutely certain that it was wrong. Without reference to God. And so would I. Is that what you think absolute morality entails? When you are absolutely certain about something? When you know it's wrong?
I’m not called to convince you. I’m called to present the truth.
My post was clear as to the point I was making.
God’s word is, though. Paul was just one instrument used to give it to us.Truth is what is verifiable fact. "Paul" is not verification.
Certain of what?It only referred to atheists:
'Actually, I know that atheists can and do believe murder is wrong. They just don’t have an objective reason for believing it.'
I want to know if you'd be certain if you had no knowledge of God.
Because He’s the authority.What is the point of appealing to an authority that isn’t mutually recognized?
Since my first post was unambiguous, I’m not sure where your confusion is coming from. Knowledge of, or belief in, God doesn’t dictate morality.Please don't be trite. I quoted what you said and asked you about it.
So you make the decision yourself. It would have been good to have that cleared up earlier...Since my first post was unambiguous, I’m not sure where your confusion is coming from. Knowledge of, or belief in, God doesn’t dictate morality.
Again, my fist post was unambiguous.So you make the decision yourself. It would have been good to have that cleared up earlier...
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.What makes him the authority?
Moses claiming God created the heavens and earth does not make him the authority. Again; what makes God the authority?In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
— Genesis 1:1
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