MJ Only How is Isaiah 9:6-7 interpreted?

EJ M · Dec 21, 2018

Isa 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,
to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice
from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Could someone please post the Rabbinic explanation for these verses.
Does Rabbinical Judaism believe this is the coming Messiah?
I read the Rabbinic explanation for Isaiah 53 was applied to national Israel, but I haven't
found an explanation for Isaiah 9.
Also, how is the timeline of the 70 weeks of Dan 9 explained?
Thank you.

CherubRam · Dec 21, 2018

EJ M said:
Isa 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,
to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice
from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Could someone please post the Rabbinic explanation for these verses.
Does Rabbinical Judaism believe this is the coming Messiah?
I read the Rabbinic explanation for Isaiah 53 was applied to national Israel, but I haven't
found an explanation for Isaiah 9.
Also, how is the timeline of the 70 weeks of Dan 9 explained?
Thank you.

Here is the correct translation.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulders: And he shall be called Wonderful Counselor of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father; (שַׂר / minister-ing) in peace.

שַׂר minister

tampasteve · Dec 21, 2018

Many interpret the passage as speaking of Hezekiah. Personally I agree with this interpretation. It could have a dual prophesy, but I do not see this passage as that.

Shimshon · Dec 21, 2018

In rabbinical Judaism Isaiah 9:5-6 is said to be Israel, king Hezekiah, or a messiah from each or any generation.

Here are some rabbinical explanations being referred to in the Targums and Babylonian Talmud among others.

Is there any place in Scripture that teaches there are multiple Messiahs or potential Messiahs in each generation? Is the source of that belief grounded firmly in the Hebrew Bible? The answer to both questions is “No!” The idea of multiple Messiahs or potential Messiahs in each generation is not found in the Hebrew Bible. That teaching is a rabbinic tradition. However, we agree with the rabbis that Isaiah 9:5-6 is Messianic.

Targum Jonathan to the Prophets:
“The prophet announced to the house of David that: ‘A boy has been born unto us, a son has been given unto us, who has taken the Torah upon himself to guard it; and his name has been called by the One who gives wonderful counsel, the Mighty God, He who lives forever: “Messiah,” in whose day peace shall abound for us. He shall make great the dignity of those who labor in the Torah and of those who maintain peace, without end; on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in justice and in righteousness, from this time forth and forever. This shall be accomplished by the Memra of the Lord of Hosts.'”[1]

Babylonian Talmud (Tract Derech Erez Zutha):
“Rabbi Hose the Galilean said: Also the name of the Messiah is called Peace, for it is written (Isaiah 9:6 ): ‘Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.'”[2]

Midrash Rabbah (Debarim 1):
“The Rabbis lay the following words in the mouth of the patriarch Jacob: “I have still to bring forth the King Messiah as it is written: ‘Unto us a child is born.'”[3]

Iggereth Teman (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon writes to Jacob Alfajumi):
“God named Him (the Messiah) with six names as He says concerning Him: ‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God, Mighty, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace’. That He calleth Him God in a distinctive manner, is to say with it, that His glory surpasses that of all other children of men.”[4]

Aben Ezra:
“There are some interpreters who say that ‘Wonderful, Everlasting Father’ are names of God and only ‘Prince of Peace’ is the name of the child. But according to my view the interpretation is right (which says): all are the names of the child.”[5]

Targum Isaiah:
“The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and He has taken the law upon Himself to keep it, and His name had been called from of old, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, He Who Lives Forever, The Anointed One (or Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us.”[6]

Most assuredly the passage is about the Messiah, but there will be only one Messiah, not a multitude of Messiahs. There will be only one Messiah. Only one candidate will fit the Messianic requirements.

^ Huckel, T. (1998). The Rabbinic Messiah (Is 9:6 ). Philadelphia: Hananeel House.

^ “How to Recognise the Messiah” Pg. 11

^ Ibid

^ “How to Recognise the Messiah” Pg. 24

^ Ibid

^ McDowell, Josh, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, (San Bernardino, CA: Here’s Life Publishers) 1972, pg. 151

From HaDavar Ministries

gadar perets · Dec 21, 2018

CherubRam said:
Here is the correct translation.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulders: And he shall be called Wonderful Counselor of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father; (שַׂר / minister-ing) in peace.

שַׂר minister

This is not a faithful translation since the words I put in bold are not in the Hebrew text. Neither is the KJV and other versions that add the article "the"; "The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

I believe a faithful and correct translation is as follows;

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty warrior, father of eternity, prince of peace.

There are at least 27 names in the Bible with the same Hebrew construction as in this verse. Each one means the "father of (something)." For example, Abishua means "father of plenty." Instead of translating the phrase in Isaiah 9:6 as "father of eternity," the KJV reversed the sequence making the true meaning harder to discern. Several newer versions correct this mistake such as The Emphasized Bible, The Bible in Basic English, The New American Bible, The Holy Bible; A Translation From the Latin Vulgate in the Light of the Hebrew and Greek Originals, and The New English Bible, just to name a few. Yeshua is the Father of Eternity because eternal life comes to us through him. And so it is written in Hebrew 5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the author (or father) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

AbbaLove · Dec 21, 2018

EJ M said:
"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

How does Rabbinic Judaism rationally/intellectually interpret this verse as referring to king Hezekiah? You've got to wonder if [secretly] Rabbinic Judaism actually believes that Yeshua may have been Israel's Messiah. But are unwilling to accept the possibility that the ruling elite (e.g. Pharisees) actually perpetuated a lie as participants of one of the greatest (blatant) coverups in human history? Certainly they were aware of reports that Yeshua had been sited for as much as 40 days after First Fruits. ... And then what about the saints that came out of their tombs and were seen in Israel and other unexplained occurrences?

Dkh587 · Dec 21, 2018

gadar perets said:
This is not a faithful translation since the words I put in bold are not in the Hebrew text. Neither is the KJV and other versions that add the article "the"; "The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

I believe a faithful and correct translation is as follows;

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty warrior, father of eternity, prince of peace.

There are at least 27 names in the Bible with the same Hebrew construction as in this verse. Each one means the "father of (something)." For example, Abishua means "father of plenty." Instead of translating the phrase in Isaiah 9:6 as "father of eternity," the KJV reversed the sequence making the true meaning harder to discern. Several newer versions correct this mistake such as The Emphasized Bible, The Bible in Basic English, The New American Bible, The Holy Bible; A Translation From the Latin Vulgate in the Light of the Hebrew and Greek Originals, and The New English Bible, just to name a few. Yeshua is the Father of Eternity because eternal life comes to us through him. And so it is written in Hebrew 5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the author (or father) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Thank you.

Do you have any insight on the variance of the Septuagint?

Isaiah 9:6-7 LXX

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of YHWH of Hosts shall perform this.

EJ M · Dec 21, 2018

AbbaLove said:
How does Rabbinic Judaism rationally/intellectually interpret this verse as referring to king Hezekiah? You've got to wonder if [secretly] Rabbinic Judaism actually believes that Yeshua may have been Israel's Messiah. But are unwilling to accept the possibility that the ruling elite (e.g. Pharisees) actually perpetuated a lie as participants of one of the greatest (blatant) coverups in human history? Certainly they were aware of reports that Yeshua had been sited for as much as 40 days after First Fruits. ... And then what about the saints that came out of their tombs and were seen in Israel and other unexplained occurrences?

Iv'e wondered the same thing myself and believe that they secretly wonder about Yeshua being the Messiah, but then look to the conduct of "Christians" and the horrors they endured for the last 2,000 years and decide, no.
Not based on what Yeshua said and did but what His "followers" said and did. Sad at the slaughter and persecution done in His name.
Interesting though that "heretics" were slaughtered in greater numbers than God's chosen people.
At homecomers.org/mirror, a 1660 publication, it is recorded many hundreds, possibly thousands of Jews discovered Yeshua was indeed the Messiah and came to be baptized.
The record is found on pages 214, 215.

CherubRam · Dec 21, 2018

gadar perets said:
This is not a faithful translation since the words I put in bold are not in the Hebrew text. Neither is the KJV and other versions that add the article "the"; "The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

I believe a faithful and correct translation is as follows;

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty warrior, father of eternity, prince of peace.

There are at least 27 names in the Bible with the same Hebrew construction as in this verse. Each one means the "father of (something)." For example, Abishua means "father of plenty." Instead of translating the phrase in Isaiah 9:6 as "father of eternity," the KJV reversed the sequence making the true meaning harder to discern. Several newer versions correct this mistake such as The Emphasized Bible, The Bible in Basic English, The New American Bible, The Holy Bible; A Translation From the Latin Vulgate in the Light of the Hebrew and Greek Originals, and The New English Bible, just to name a few. Yeshua is the Father of Eternity because eternal life comes to us through him. And so it is written in Hebrew 5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the author (or father) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

There is no place in scriptures where Yahshua says he is The Father. שַׂר minister is correct. Use Google translate to see: https://translate.google.com/

visionary · Dec 21, 2018

AbbaLove said:
How does Rabbinic Judaism rationally/intellectually interpret this verse as referring to king Hezekiah? You've got to wonder if [secretly] Rabbinic Judaism actually believes that Yeshua may have been Israel's Messiah. But are unwilling to accept the possibility that the ruling elite (e.g. Pharisees) actually perpetuated a lie as participants of one of the greatest (blatant) coverups in human history? Certainly they were aware of reports that Yeshua had been sited for as much as 40 days after First Fruits. ... And then what about the saints that came out of their tombs and were seen in Israel and other unexplained occurrences?

Given that the Talmud was written before Yeshua walked the earth, the interpretations recorded and carried forward to this day still apply to those who are not taught about Yeshua.

gadar perets · Dec 21, 2018

CherubRam said:
There is no place in scriptures where Yahshua says he is The Father. שַׂר minister is correct. Use Google translate to see: https://translate.google.com/

There is a big difference between calling Yeshua "The Father" and calling him the father of eternity. Are you questioning that Yeshua is not a father in any sense? If so, explain Isaiah 53:10.

Also, google translate is prone to error. I have tried translating non-Biblical material and the translation makes no sense. All Hebrew lexicons show שַׂר to mean prince. I have yet to see a lexicon that uses "minister".

gadar perets · Dec 21, 2018

Dkh587 said:
Thank you.

Do you have any insight on the variance of the Septuagint?

Isaiah 9:6-7 LXX

Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

This is so radically different from the Masoretic text. One can only surmise that the LXX was either translating from a different Hebrew text or one of the texts is wrong.

CherubRam · Dec 21, 2018

gadar perets said:
There is a big difference between calling Yeshua "The Father" and calling him the father of eternity. Are you questioning that Yeshua is not a father in any sense? If so, explain Isaiah 53:10.

Also, google translate is prone to error. I have tried translating non-Biblical material and the translation makes no sense. All Hebrew lexicons show שַׂר to mean prince. I have yet to see a lexicon that uses "minister".

I did not see anything in Isaiah 53 that suggest that Yahshua is a Father.

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “minister.” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading or ministering."

The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bible, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.

Prince Minister Leader Sar

Brown-Driver-Briggs makes a very good argument for the word "sar" meaning royalty, in Assyrian. (King)

However, using another language to translate a word can be both helpful, and misleading. What they did not take into consideration is the fact that royalty also acted as ministers. (As in, ministering in peace.) Or (Minister of the faith.) The Hebrew word "Sar" is best translated as "Minister." The Hebrew word "Sar" should never be given a translation as having to do with royalty.

Brown-Driver-Briggs

שַׂר420 noun masculine chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince (Late Hebrew especially of angels; Assyrian šarru, king)

gadar perets · Dec 21, 2018

CherubRam said:
I did not see anything in Isaiah 53 that suggest that Yahshua is a Father.

How can Yeshua have "seed" unless he is a father in some sense?

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

Click to expand...

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “minister.” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading or ministering."

The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bible, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.

Prince Minister Leader Sar

Brown-Driver-Briggs makes a very good argument for the word "sar" meaning royalty, in Assyrian. (King)

However, using another language to translate a word can be both helpful, and misleading. What they did not take into consideration is the fact that royalty also acted as ministers. (As in, ministering in peace.) Or (Minister of the faith.) The Hebrew word "Sar" is best translated as "Minister." The Hebrew word "Sar" should never be given a translation as having to do with royalty.

Brown-Driver-Briggs

שַׂר420 noun masculine chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince (Late Hebrew especially of angels; Assyrian šarru, king)

I have no problem with translating sar as "chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince". I have a problem with "minister". Unless you show me in a lexicon the meaning "minister", I must reject it. You can't just pull definitions out of a hat.

As for sar never having to do with royalty, is Yeshua the son of a King? Yes. Therefore he is a prince.

CherubRam · Dec 22, 2018

gadar perets said:
How can Yeshua have "seed" unless he is a father in some sense?

I have no problem with translating sar as "chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince". I have a problem with "minister". Unless you show me in a lexicon the meaning "minister", I must reject it. You can't just pull definitions out of a hat.

As for sar never having to do with royalty, is Yeshua the son of a King? Yes. Therefore he is a prince.

Have a nice day.

gadar perets · Dec 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
Have a nice day.

You are developing a bad habit of running away from questions you can't answer or issues where you are proven wrong. Why not just be honest and say, "I don't know the answers to your questions, but I'll look into it further"?

CherubRam · Dec 22, 2018

gadar perets said:
You are developing a bad habit of running away from questions you can't answer or issues where you are proven wrong. Why not just be honest and say, "I don't know the answers to your questions, but I'll look into it further"?

Your questions are not logical or rational. I can not reason with a person who is not reasonable.

gadar perets · Dec 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
Your questions are not logical or rational. I can not reason with a person who is not reasonable.

"How can Yeshua have "seed" unless he is a father in some sense?" Is a perfectly logical and rational question. I will rephrase it for you. Isaiah 53:10 mentions Yeshua's "seed". What is that seed and how does it relate to Yeshua? He obviously does not have any literal seed as in fathering literal children since we have no record of that or of him being married. So it must be referring to figurative seed that he has fathered in a figurative sense. Explain to me how I am misunderstanding that verse.

CherubRam · Dec 22, 2018

gadar perets said:
"How can Yeshua have "seed" unless he is a father in some sense?" Is a perfectly logical and rational question. I will rephrase it for you. Isaiah 53:10 mentions Yeshua's "seed". What is that seed and how does it relate to Yeshua? He obviously does not have any literal seed as in fathering literal children since we have no record of that or of him being married. So it must be referring to figurative seed that he has fathered in a figurative sense. Explain to me how I am misunderstanding that verse.

His (seed) are the converts.

gadar perets · Dec 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
His (seed) are the converts.

Exactly. So he is a "father" of the converts in the same sense that Paul says "I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though you have ten thousand instructors in Messiah, yet have you not many fathers: for in Messiah Yeshua I have begotten you through the gospel." (1 Corinthians 4:14-15). However, he is NOT our Heavenly Father.

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