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How is Deuteronomy 13:6-11 different than the Islamic approach to apostasy?

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Lady Bug

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Ok - I don't know how to approach this topic but I'll try to explain.

Under the Old Covenant, I saw a passage in the OT (Deut. 13:6-11) that explains that if anyone is found to be worshiping any other God other than the one true God, they're to be killed.
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
I need to know that, if we are trying to explain our objections to the idea that if you are apostate of Islam, you are to be killed - and we are pointed to the passages in the Bible that the Jewish religion did the very same thing, how are we to respond?
 

Lady Bug

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Respond by pointing out your Christian beliefs, which are contrary to fundamentalist interpretation of the Old Testament and Koran.


Jim
Can you kind of clarify the 2nd half of your sentence lol?

I get the Christian beliefs part, but I meant can you elaborate the part after that.

I'm pretty bad with the OT stuff. And I'm not proud of that:sigh:
 
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Mom2Alex

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Ok - I don't know how to approach this topic but I'll try to explain.

Under the Old Covenant, I saw a passage in the OT (Deut. 13:6-11) that explains that if anyone is found to be worshiping any other God other than the one true God, they're to be killed.
I need to know that, if we are trying to explain our objections to the idea that if you are apostate of Islam, you are to be killed - and we are pointed to the passages in the Bible that the Jewish religion did the very same thing, how are we to respond?

Jesus Christ made everything new - and did away with the old laws. We are no longer bound by the laws of old.

In the Old Testament, God had to get tough. The chosen people were just not 'getting it'. He gave them chance after chance after chance to follow His commandments and they continued to fail Him. Then He sent His Son, Jesus to save us.

Some important quotes about the old and new laws:
__________________________________
Council of Florence, DS 695: “There are seven sacraments of the new Law: namely, baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance, extreme unction, orders, and matrimony, which differ a great deal from the sacraments of the Old Law. For those of the Old Law did not effect grace, but only pronounced that it should be given through the passion of Christ; these sacraments of ours contain grace, and confer it upon those who receive them worthily.”

Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo Primum, #61: “The first consideration is that the ceremonies of the Mosaic law were abrogated by the coming of Christ and they can no longer be observed without sin after the promulgation of the Gospel.”

Pius XII: Mystici Corporis, 29: “And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ…but on the Gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.”

_______________________

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel.... I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." 19
1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:

If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life.... This sermon contains ... all the precepts needed to shape one's life. 20
1967 The Law of the Gospel "fulfills," refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection. 21 In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfills the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the "kingdom of heaven." It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faith - the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christ and so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.
1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure, 22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity. 23
____________________________

I hope this helps. :)
 
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Lady Bug

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We are under the New Covenant. not the old. The old has been fulfilled. Jesus' command.. "love one another".. love your enemy..
Yes indeed we are under the New Covenant:) I'm just wondering something though. Even though we are not subject to the punishments of the OT for certain sins, it still seems as though a number of the sins mentioned in the OT are still sins (i.e. the Ten Commandments, and other rules against things like divination, homosexuality, witchcraft, incestuous relationships, etc.).

Is this true that many things from the law (e.g. stuff I mentioned above, and anything else I may not know about) are still sins even though we are not subject to those punishments anymore? :confused::confused:

Jesus Christ made everything new - and did away with the old laws. We are no longer bound by the laws of old.
I know we're not bound by those laws :) I'm just wondering though what it means when Christ said he didn't come to abolish the law though. I am confused :confused:
 
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Lady Bug

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worshiping false gods is a sin, everyone says that, in the NT we have forgiveness of sins so we do not have to be killed, I do not know why the Jews do not follow the old laws though and kill people who leave Judaism
With regard to what I've emphasized...I thought the Jews didn't really do this sort of thing anymore :confused:
 
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Mom2Alex

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Yes indeed we are under the New Covenant:) I'm just wondering something though. Even though we are not subject to the punishments of the OT for certain sins, it still seems as though a number of the sins mentioned in the OT are still sins (i.e. the Ten Commandments, and other rules against things like divination, homosexuality, witchcraft, incestuous relationships, etc.).

Is this true that many things from the law (e.g. stuff I mentioned above, and anything else I may not know about) are still sins even though we are not subject to those punishments anymore? :confused::confused:


I know we're not bound by those laws :) I'm just wondering though what it means when Christ said he didn't come to abolish the law though. I am confused :confused:

I'll get back to you on this tomorrow when I have some more time to spend on the topic. :) God bless you!
 
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Globalnomad

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Ok - I don't know how to approach this topic but I'll try to explain.

Under the Old Covenant, I saw a passage in the OT (Deut. 13:6-11) that explains that if anyone is found to be worshiping any other God other than the one true God, they're to be killed.
I need to know that, if we are trying to explain our objections to the idea that if you are apostate of Islam, you are to be killed - and we are pointed to the passages in the Bible that the Jewish religion did the very same thing, how are we to respond?

To a simplistic question, you can give a simplistic reply:

"Yeah, "did". 2 000 years ago. Perhaps it's time the Muslims archived this law too."

This law was written 3 000 years ago, for the conditions of that time. It is kept in our Holy Book to remind us of those times, but it has not been acted upon - not even by the Jews - for 2 000 years now. As for us Christians, it does not apply to us, period. There are thousands of laws in the OT that don't apply to us. Just because the OT is still a Holy Book for us does not mean we are bound by all its laws: it just means that we still keep the PRINCIPLES that underlie those laws holy. The Ten Commandments are principle, so we keep them. The myriad laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are APPLICATIONS of the principles - to kill apostates is an ancient, barbaric application of the principle that it is a grave offence to leave the True Faith for your personal convenience; the law against eating pork is an application of the principle of living a healthy life; etc... When Christ said that not one iota of the Law is to be revoked, He meant that all its PRINCIPLES continue to apply. Not the detailed applications, which are time- and culture-bound.
 
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QuantaCura

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The OT law was a foreshadowing of deeper realities. Sins that received capital punishment are in reality sins that lead to spiritual death (what we call mortal sins). The difference is that the Jews were actually commanded by God to do this where Muslims were commanded to do so by a false prophet. Since now is the time of mercy and the time for repentance, sinners cannot be justly killed unless the authentic common good requires it.

So the response is two-fold: (1) to say Muslims can do it because pre-advent Jews did it is to say all religions are equally true and their doctrines and precepts are all equally valid or that the truth is not knowable. (2) with the law made void and the liberating redemption we have received from Christ, we can now freely make the act of faith by grace, and not be physical coercion. We also, in God's mercy, are given time to repent and return like the Prodigal Son.

No matter how you look at it, you can't make a judgment about Muslim religious practices without invalidating the religion by showing it contrary to reason/natural law and to divine law. The Jews were right, the Muslims are not.
 
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Leonard

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Ok - I don't know how to approach this topic but I'll try to explain.

Under the Old Covenant, I saw a passage in the OT (Deut. 13:6-11) that explains that if anyone is found to be worshiping any other God other than the one true God, they're to be killed.
I need to know that, if we are trying to explain our objections to the idea that if you are apostate of Islam, you are to be killed - and we are pointed to the passages in the Bible that the Jewish religion did the very same thing, how are we to respond?

Well the biggest difference is: The last time this was done in Judaism was about 1350 B.C. The last time this was done in Islam is......TODAY!

The method used was different too. In a stoning in ancient Israel, the first person was to wield a very large stone to instantaneously crush the condemned person's skull, and kill him. Then the rest of the community cast smaller stones symbolically avering their assent to the death of the wicked. In Islam, everyone throws small rocks (not over fist sized according to most Moslem authorities), and these tortures usually take HOURS for the victime to die............

Please see www.apostatesofislam.com
 
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Ignatius the Hermit

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they do not, but i wonder why
they are still in the old law, but they do not stone people to death anymore
It may have something to do with the fact that they no longer have a temple and still follow the sacrificial system. Yet even in the OT did they obey the Law with their whole heart. Consider Solomon, who was visited three times by God, and was repeatedly blessed by Him. Yet he married 'foreign women', who worshipped false gods. In the Law, a Jew was not to marry outside of the faith, or have multiple wives. Yet here is an example of a man, apprarently of God, who had 700 wives, and worshipped false gods, and made sacrifices to them (even child sacrifices). And he wasn't killed.

Jesus didn't actually do away with the Law, but He did fulfill it--which means when we transgress any point of it, we have forgiveness (atonement) for those sins.

Peace.
 
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Globalnomad

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why did the Jews stop killing apostates it if it was in the OT?

Hold on a bit. I was curious enough to ask a Jewish rabbi-student friend for the answer to this (I copied him part of this thread), let's wait for his answer.
 
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