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How Is Creationism Relevant?

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busterdog

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One of the coolest things about the promises of the New Testament is that we are promised a walk with Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So, what does creationism have to do with this walk?

And, perhaps more fundamentally, is anyone walking with us? To our perception, there is a big difference between the promise of a walk with Jesus and His actual presence. I think of the road to Emmaus often. If He is present, we are next to clueless about it.

In the beatitudes, we are told "blessed are the sorrowful." We don't seek sorrow, but we either weep with God for His reasons, or we weep for ourselves over the mess we have made with the help of our neighbors.

Similarly, as much as I am quite ready to jettison all of the common sense that leads to an evolutionary view (and assumed here for the sake of argument), common sense should also be inevitable. It is either God's, or it is ours. What is it?

This is a loaded question and vague at best. But no more vague than what that presense of Jesus usually is.
 

vossler

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So, what does creationism have to do with this walk?
Creationism itself doesn't really have much to do with it except for the fact that as Christians we believe and trust His Word. Wherever His Word speaks on an issue we must have faith enough to trust and believe it to be the truth. Before 1859 this wasn't much of an issue, sadly it has become one though.
And, perhaps more fundamentally, is anyone walking with us? To our perception, there is a big difference between the promise of a walk with Jesus and His actual presence. I think of the road to Emmaus often. If He is present, we are next to clueless about it.
His presence is dictated upon a relationship that both of us need to nurture. It's true that few have any real conception of what that is because most Christians are sadly living in the natural instead of the spirit. Worse yet, they're content to stay there.
In the beatitudes, we are told "blessed are the sorrowful." We don't seek sorrow, but we either weep with God for His reasons, or we weep for ourselves over the mess we have made with the help of our neighbors.

Similarly, as much as I am quite ready to jettison all of the common sense that leads to an evolutionary view (and assumed here for the sake of argument), common sense should also be inevitable. It is either God's, or it is ours. What is it?
I'm a bit confused. :scratch: What common sense is there that leads to an evolutionary view? Where are you going with this? Common sense tells me there was a Creator, not some process of life undergoing a continuous and radical change over an extremely long period of time.
 
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FallingWaters

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Creationism is relevant to me because before I heard of it,
I thought that science had proved evolution was true.

That thinking undermined my trust and faith in the Bible.

After I found out there was another way to explain the evidence-
from a Creation point of view- that did not contradict the Bible,
it made all the difference in the world to me.
I was so excited about my faith, AND the Bible!

Now I know I can believe the Bible if I want to!
Evolution has not necessarily been "proven"!
 
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Floodnut

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One of the coolest things about the promises of the New Testament is that we are promised a walk with Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

We walk with Jesus, and we have the guidance of the Holy Spirit? and who is Jesus? the CREATOR, with whom Adam himself customarily walked in the breeze of the day (Genesis 3). And the Holy Spirit is He who brooded, moved upon the face of the waters (Genesis 1). We walk with the CREATOR (Jesus) in a committment of confidence (I Pe 4:14). If rather he is the "one who oversees evolution"there is not much to trust in a walk.

So, what does creationism have to do with this walk?

And, perhaps more fundamentally, is anyone walking with us?
They are not walking with us in this FAITH in the faithful creator and in our worship of him who created all things for his pleasure (Rev 4:11).
To our perception, there is a big difference between the promise of a walk with Jesus and His actual presence. I think of the road to Emmaus often. If He is present, we are next to clueless about it.
Indeed those who deny creation and the Creator are not clueless, for God has revealed himself in the Creation and the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, even his eternal power and godhead, so that they are without excuse.
They see the creation and instead of worshiping the Creator they say the creation has made itself and they worship instead created things, even themselves. They claim that a literal understanding of Scripture on the matter of Creation makes God a liar in the account of nature. They make God a liar. They change the truth of God into a lie.

In the beatitudes, we are told "blessed are the sorrowful." We don't seek sorrow, but we either weep with God for His reasons, or we weep for ourselves over the mess we have made with the help of our neighbors.

Similarly, as much as I am quite ready to jettison all of the common sense that leads to an evolutionary view (and assumed here for the sake of argument), common sense should also be inevitable. It is either God's, or it is ours. What is it?

This is a loaded question and vague at best. But no more vague than what that presense of Jesus usually is.

Our walk with Jesus is a walk with the creator.
 
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laptoppop

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Great posts. I would just add that I am more concerned about the way TEs interpret Scripture than any of the other issues. Their interpretation limits God to using the knowledge and worldview of the writer. God plainly refuted that when He had prophets fortell future events. He even said to use it as a test of a true prophet. The the Scripture becomes for them the word of men instead of the Word of God.
 
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busterdog

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I'm a bit confused. :scratch: What common sense is there that leads to an evolutionary view? Where are you going with this? Common sense tells me there was a Creator, not some process of life undergoing a continuous and radical change over an extremely long period of time.

In many ways, common sense is the battlefield.

Evolution has many degreed people and lots of evidence to support it. Common sense suggests that you go with the experts and your ability to trace the progression from tiny horse ancestor skeletons to modern stallions.

And let's face it. Mountains do just look very old to the naked eye.

(However, I will not concede that creation science is wrong, except for the sake of argument here.)

Common sense says to fight like made with all your skill to prevail in business, in your tenure review or in an argument. If you are wrongfully accused, should you fight like mad, or trust that God will defend you? If you are sick, do you trust or make your doctor nuts with phone calls?

God is going to use the things of this world in a common sense way as humans measure such things, but not all the time. Until He really is first, what is His common sense? A six day creation does not fit common sense as the world meaures things.
 
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InspiredHome

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Creationism is extremely important. All doctrines are ultimately directly or indirectly founded in Genesis 1-11. The issue at stake here is biblical authority. Relegating Genesis to a myth or moral tale undermines the entire foundation of the Bible and severely distorts the character of God.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Psalm 11:3[/FONT]


 
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Floodnut

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Great posts. I would just add that I am more concerned about the way TEs interpret Scripture than any of the other issues. Their interpretation limits God to using the knowledge and worldview of the writer. God plainly refuted that when He had prophets fortell future events. He even said to use it as a test of a true prophet. The the Scripture becomes for them the word of men instead of the Word of God.
Not only is a right view of the naturally UNKNOWN future a test of a true prophets, but also a right view of the naturally unknown PAST is also a test, for: "To the Law and the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM" (Isaiah 8:20).
 
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Floodnut

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In many ways, common sense is the battlefield.
The battle is the fight of faith. Will we believe God or not? Will we make God a liar or we we make the conclusions of "science" the lie? He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar (I John 5:10) and Romans one makes it clear that it a matter of charging God with falsehood and believing the lie to reject creation. They that regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy (Jonah). Indeed there is no need for mercy if there was no Creation and FALL.

Evolution has many degreed people and lots of evidence to support it. Common sense suggests that you go with the experts and your ability to trace the progression from tiny horse ancestor skeletons to modern stallions.
Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will remember the name of the Lord our God. The horse progression is an absolute lie. The series is not orderly, and skips from continent to continent and has no explanation for the first eohippus. Besides, there are modern animals that are remarkably similar to the supposed extinct first horse.
And let's face it. Mountains do just look very old to the naked eye.
Actually to my mind it takes a powerful imagination and a willingness to accept fantasy to see the mountains as being millions of years old. I look at the topography of the earth the uplifts, the folding, the inversions, the canyons, the layers, and this that I see as I drive the interstates, or fly over the continents, this that I see SCREAMS: "FLOOD, FLOOD, CATACLYSM."

(However, I will not concede that creation science is wrong, except for the sake of argument here.)

Common sense says to fight like made with all your skill to prevail in business, in your tenure review or in an argument. If you are wrongfully accused, should you fight like mad, or trust that God will defend you? If you are sick, do you trust or make your doctor nuts with phone calls?

God is going to use the things of this world in a common sense way as humans measure such things, but not all the time. Until He really is first, what is His common sense? A six day creation does not fit common sense as the world meaures things.

What does believing in Evolution have to do with splitting the atom, or transplanting a heart, or inventing an MRI, or plotting a course to the moon, or setting a broken bone. It is evolution which is irrelevant to reality and it is evolution which lacks common sense. I am working on a computer here. SOMEONE MADE IT. I am in a marvelous world which declares the glory of the Lord, and I am fearfully and wonderfully made. There is a Creator and I worship him for I am made for his pleasure and he will one day be my Judge.
 
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vossler

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Evolution has many degreed people and lots of evidence to support it. Common sense suggests that you go with the experts and your ability to trace the progression from tiny horse ancestor skeletons to modern stallions.
I'd be very careful how I'd use the term evidence. I firmly believe we've taken a term that is supposed to be objective and clearly distinguished and we've now clouded it so much, with regard to evolution, that no one knows where the evidence stops and the conjecture and speculation begins. We've gotten to the point where much of science (evolution (adaptation), geology, paleontology, astronomy) is now built upon conjecture and speculation. We've allowed conjecture and speculation into our scientific studies to such an extent that it truly has become the norm. Now no one even thinks twice about it, it has become SOP.
And let's face it. Mountains do just look very old to the naked eye.
Without the knowledge of history my mother would look very old to the naked eye too ;) but you have to remember it's all relative to our perspective.
Common sense says to fight like made with all your skill to prevail in business, in your tenure review or in an argument. If you are wrongfully accused, should you fight like mad, or trust that God will defend you? If you are sick, do you trust or make your doctor nuts with phone calls?
Ahh...now you're talking about an entirely different kettle of fish. :) Here I would most certainly agree because this type common sense is based upon personal experience.
God is going to use the things of this world in a common sense way as humans measure such things, but not all the time. Until He really is first, what is His common sense? A six day creation does not fit common sense as the world measures things.
Boy can I agree with the bolded statement. :thumbsup:

See, as I look back to my own childhood, it made a lot more sense to me that God created in 6 days than the story evolution was pushing. Now I have to admit that without making an effort to see for yourself the actual evidence and then knowing how many 'smart' scientists not only believe in it but can sound quite convincing and intelligent by describing its processes, one could easily be duped. Sadly many Christians sadly have become entrapped in this lie.
 
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busterdog

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I'd be very careful how I'd use the term evidence. I firmly believe we've taken a term that is supposed to be objective and clearly distinguished and we've now clouded it so much, with regard to evolution, that no one knows where the evidence stops and the conjecture and speculation begins. We've gotten to the point where much of science (evolution (adaptation), geology, paleontology, astronomy) is now built upon conjecture and speculation. We've allowed conjecture and speculation into our scientific studies to such an extent that it truly has become the norm. Now no one even thinks twice about it, it has become SOP.

"Common sense" is sort a spirit of the age in my mind. It drives people to take religion philosophically, but as something that has no teeth. It causes people to be very chary about taking a risk. My wife has a friend with a Downs Syn. kid and little income. She let her drive our minivan to Brooklyn, which unnerved me somewhat. It was a long drive on nasty roads into a tough area. As much sense as it makes to be careful when you are being used, that sense is my first reaction, not to ask the Lord what he wants. Clearly the BIble says to lend without expecting anything in return. Should common sense over-ride what the BIble says?

As you suggest, a way of thinking starts to overtake an area of our lives. THere are lots of sensible considerations, but they lead the way. What God wants takes a back seat -- such that Science has excluded goddidit completely from its considerations. And or course creation science is scorned.

The terms have become clouded indeed.

Without the knowledge of history my mother would look very old to the naked eye too ;) but you have to remember it's all relative to our perspective.
And in that proposition, we see the chasm between TE and YEC.


Ahh...now you're talking about an entirely different kettle of fish. :) Here I would most certainly agree because this type common sense is based upon personal experience.
Boy can I agree with the bolded statement. :thumbsup:

See, as I look back to my own childhood, it made a lot more sense to me that God created in 6 days than the story evolution was pushing. Now I have to admit that without making an effort to see for yourself the actual evidence and then knowing how many 'smart' scientists not only believe in it but can sound quite convincing and intelligent by describing its processes, one could easily be duped. Sadly many Christians sadly have become entrapped in this lie.
I would also say that lots of the creation science can be challenged to a degree. One can raise reasonable doubt, since the entire enterprise of understanding the universe is a bit short of being complete. Reasonable doubt is not the same thing as clear and convincing evidence. Its enough to get a person acquited from a felony, but it is not enough for me to jettison creation science.

HOwever, you will find that confusion between doubt and convincing evidence is something that TEs and secular science will just blow through with barely any comprehesion of the distinction.

But, I do think God demands of us that we take stock of the difference. Just as Job was forced to do. What do we really know? We have lots of pretty good guesses about the really big questions, but they only look good against a backdrop of intractible ignorance. God has the answers. We dont.
 
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busterdog

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I think I take issue with this like the others have done.

The world doesn't look any older than 6,000 years to my eyes.

I keep trying to avoid looking at healing as an analogy. But, you provided a very interesting response.

So,. I will ratchet this up a notch.

In sickness, does it look like the Lord is Jehovah-raffa, the Lord who heals you? That can be a much harder question.

Let's put aside the whole name it/claim it thing. There is plenty to occupy us in trying to figure out when and how God gets put first in trouble and how it is that we see it His way.

The first thing one immediately finds often enough is that your head is just crowded with all sorts of conflicting ideas about what to do. There is lots of "common sense" that tries to exclude God and His ability to provide a surprising range of solutions.

Seeing Him is not easy.

Part of the creation problem is also being ready to receive what the Lord has to say.
 
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FallingWaters

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I keep trying to avoid looking at healing as an analogy. But, you provided a very interesting response.

So,. I will ratchet this up a notch.

In sickness, does it look like the Lord is Jehovah-raffa, the Lord who heals you? That can be a much harder question.

Let's put aside the whole name it/claim it thing. There is plenty to occupy us in trying to figure out when and how God gets put first in trouble and how it is that we see it His way.

The first thing one immediately finds often enough is that your head is just crowded with all sorts of conflicting ideas about what to do. There is lots of "common sense" that tries to exclude God and His ability to provide a surprising range of solutions.

Seeing Him is not easy.

Part of the creation problem is also being ready to receive what the Lord has to say.
I was trying to make the point that it's my opinion that the only reason a person would think "Mountains do just look very old to the naked eye" is because they have been taught to think so.

When I look at the mountains I think of Noah's Flood.

Thankfully evolution was not such a hot topic when I was in school 30-40 years ago.
I was not inculcated with "millions of years" thinking.

Besides, the supposed age of the universe has something like quadrupled since then.
 
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busterdog

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I was trying to make the point that it's my opinion that the only reason a person would think "Mountains do just look very old to the naked eye" is because they have been taught to think so.

When I look at the mountains I think of Noah's Flood.

Thankfully evolution was not such a hot topic when I was in school 30-40 years ago.
I was not inculcated with "millions of years" thinking.

Besides, the supposed age of the universe has something like quadrupled since then.

Oh, I completely understand what you are saying. One thing that shocks me is how much other stuff I have learned that belongs in a category similar to that which you have described.

When I say "looks old", I mean that you can make a rational argument for its very old appearance and as you suggest, we are so used to it that its hard to really think otherwise. But, as you indicate, there is an alternative.
 
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busterdog

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Here is an aspect of relevance sure to tick some folks off. In the legal business, if you hire a guy as security because he is big and tough, you aren't necessarily responsible for his wrongdoing if he happens to pummel someone on the job without provocation. There is a relationship between the basis for hiring and the assault, but not in terms of culpability. If you hired the guy because you wanted some folks roughed up, that would be something different.

I have also heard Catholocism and Protestantism blamed in part for the holocaust, and in fact many ways of human thinking are poisonous in a way similar to Nazism, but very few are poisonous to the same degree.

Darwinism as a cause of the holocaust is much too simple of an explanation. Similarly, being homosexual or a clown doesn't mean you are a serial killer like John Wayne Gacy, but there is in fact a shared sin relevant to both types of lives.

That being said, how many of us are offended by the idea that
God perfects us as a people by natural selection?

And although evolutionists may also feel insulted, well, it does remain an issue worth looking at.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55946

A powerful and critically acclaimed new video documentary on Darwinism – which proves the evolutionary theory's founder should share with Adolph Hitler the blame for the Holocaust, as well as for the more than 45 million American lives lost to abortion – is available today for just $4.95, a $20 discount from the normal $25.00 price, but only from WorldNetDaily.


The results of Darwin’s theories?

Titled "Darwin’s Deadly Legacy," the stunning documentary shows that Darwinian theory, "which is scientifically bankrupt, has probably been responsible for more bloodshed than anything else in the history of humanity," said Jerry Newcomb, one of the program's two co-producers.

Before the advent of Darwinian beliefs, said Newcombe, the Western world's basic concept was that man was made in the image of God, and was therefore valuable. But Darwin changed all that.

"Karl Marx wouldn’t embrace all (Darwin's) tenets, but said, 'This is a scientific theory on which we can base our theory of man,'" Newcomb told WND.

And according to Ann Coulter, bestselling author of "Godless: The Church of Liberalism," Hitler was simply taking Darwinism from the theoretical to the practical.

"He thought the Aryans were the fittest and he was just hurrying natural selection along," Coulter said.

So when did God suddenly decide that the law of natural selection is no longer the way to do things? If that law still applies, shouldn't we be snuffing more disabled people?

Where in the Bible does it say that natural selection was the right way for a millions of years, but for a few mere thousands a different method applies? Certainly God does not owe us an explanation for things that are mysterious. But when we are given one, I think we need to contemplate this kind of anomaly.

Here is the proposition: the merciful God, who is all-powerful could have created man out of the dust in a single day, but instead, he chose a long, slow and painful way to make man -- with lots of pain, death and merciless laws of the jungle to cull the weak.

My Bible says, let the weak say I am strong. What does Darwin say?

Obviously, if you mention Nazis, you have touched on an area regarded as off-limits for commentary. I am not particularly shy about the thought crime being committed here. In terms of the way people live their lives and consider evolution, Nazism has about zero relevance. In some ways, the analogy is a bit more than over-the-top, if not gratuitous, when applied to individuals or churches or universities, for example. But, when applied to nations?

We are all looking forward. What is going to solve the historical problems of man? Now, the question is suddenly extremely relevant. Hitler indeed had a plan to perfect the human species. And his plan was quite Darwinian indeed -- a bit off, but pretty close. IF the Aryans could eliminate the Jews, then it would prove him right. Science would object that Jews were not demonstrably inferior from a genetic standpoint. Well, not so fast, Poindexter. If Hitler had wiped out the Jews, he would have earned a considerable set of Darwinian spurs. That he eliminated 6,000,000 Jews would seem to merit honorable mention. Sorry, but those are the rules.

Of course, Hitler lost the war, which perhaps proves him wrong in a Darwinian sense. Expect the victors may have only gained a respite and are now staring down the barrell of a huge demographic problem with folks of a different Darwinian stripe: those who believe the fittest are followers of Allah. If they are successful as Saladin in the 21st century, do they not deserve some Darwinian kudos? War is also their creed and they love Hitler.

What is the plan for health in the human being? Prayer. It may lead to a better doctor. But prayer is where it starts. As Psalm 127 says, unless the Lord watches the city, the watchmen watch in vain. God is the only fittest thing there is. If you rely upon the power of God you are by definition, not Darwinian.

There is a prophetic word about how history is to work out. It is distinctly not Darwinian. That is very relevant to where we are.
 
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vossler

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Excellent post. :thumbsup:
That being said, how many of us are offended by the idea that God perfects us as a people by natural selection?
I personally find that extremely offensive. It in effect is saying that He didn't get the job done right and now is waiting for His final product to mature while He sits on the sidelines uninvolved and patiently waiting. Give me a break!
What is the plan for health in the human being? Prayer. It may lead to a better doctor. But prayer is where it starts. As Psalm 127 says, unless the Lord watches the city, the watchmen watch in vain. God is the only fittest thing there is. If you rely upon the power of God you are by definition, not Darwinian.
You've hit the nail right on the head, prayer is the answer. Sadly, Christians typically go to prayer when all else has failed instead of first.
There is a prophetic word about how history is to work out. It is distinctly not Darwinian. That is very relevant to where we are.
Is that ever right. :thumbsup:
 
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busterdog

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Excellent post. :thumbsup:
I personally find that extremely offensive. It in effect is saying that He didn't get the job done right and now is waiting for His final product to mature while He sits on the sidelines uninvolved and patiently waiting. Give me a break!
You've hit the nail right on the head, prayer is the answer. Sadly, Christians typically go to prayer when all else has failed instead of first.
Is that ever right. :thumbsup:

I think what we will see shortly is a TE response that says what TEs believe.

For example, Darwin did not exclude the work of communities to improve their lot. (Anyone optimistic about the prospects for human communities healing this earth?)

For example, prayer is compatible with a Darwinian approach, since it makes you more fit.

Quite frankly, I am not seeing anything but a bumpy ride between killing (whether by leopards, bacteria or Nazis) the less fit to improve breeding stock and shifting to a benevolent intercession for those who are less fit according the the Darwinian rules of the game. There is a huge problem with consistency in this body of ideas. Either death is the answer or it isnt.

How is God Jehovah-raffa, the God who heals you, if he needs death to make people better genetically? I think it should be two completely different ways of doing things -- God's ways in His domain and man's way in his fallen world.

To beat the dead horse, God apparently works quite differently in Eden and the New Jerusalem. Why should that be?
 
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busterdog

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Whether it is even necessary to consider the holocaust in the context of Darwinism also involves the question of whether the human race is at all capable of organizing its affairs. Is a form of extreme social Darwinism inevitable when people try to do things on their own and by their own strength?

That this question remains relevant is proven in Europe. The EU's parliment in Strasbourg is modeled on the Tower of Babel. The failed model of human community is taken to be the model for EU's future. And how well is Europe dealing with the next holocaust of Jews? Not well. Europe is more than willing to organize itself without God's governance, thank you very much. Never mind that the example of Babel was engineered by a man described by some as a "hunter of men's souls," namely Nimrod.

So, while the gratuitous nature of the comparison can be reasonably argued, we all get to speculate about the future. ANd the future is a problem and in many ways those problems look like the past.
 
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