How intense was/is your spirituality?

[Hans Blaster]

I am curious about how theists and former theists intensity of spirituality is/was compared to the average person. While it is impossible to peer into the lived experiences of others I do think we are capable of making some educated guesses.

Interesting question...

(ex-Catholic): I wasn't particularly spiritual. (I would say "not at all", but I did believe in "spiritual" things that I no longer do.) I believed the basics (God/Jesus/Salvation,etc.) and what I was told about the Church being the continuation of the ministry of Jesus and having his authority on Earth. I had little interest in religion beyond keeping my obligations to God as the Church taught and fell away from it fairly gently once the authority of the claims was breached for me.

 

[MehGuy]

Now on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being basically enlightened then I'd say it's a 6. It was a 10 for a few months this year but it's hard to function while operating at such a high level of consciousness.

Ah, so you consider yourself more spirituality intense than others? I do agree that being hyper spiritual can make it harder to function, although you do have more control than say being drunk. While I haven't taken drugs, I've heard spirituality can be as powerful as the hardest drugs but you have way more control and still more "sober".

Admittedly though, I've never fainted or anything. Although I suspect that is because I abstain from worship and submission as a Christian. Dominance and submission produces more of a drunk like feeling. Something I believe is even described in the Bible. Mine was more like mania/just strong feelings.. maybe.. eh.. lol. My spiritual output no matter how strong probably wouldn't lead to fainting.

 

[Caliban]

I have a different view of the Bible but in trying to be honest I don't think I'm some resolute person. A lot of Christians see someone move away from the belief and think they must never have believed. I'm not so sure about that tbh. There's lots of conflicting information and pressures. There's a part of me that thinks I'll never lose faith and there's a part (albeit smaller) which thinks what if I did?

As a believer, I had a good friend leave the faith. At the time I took 1 John 2:19 serious--They went out from us, but they were not of us.... I believed in the Perseverance of the saints and Unconditional Election. Now I am in the same position as my friend and when I reflect on my life as a believer, I cannot doubt my own sincerity, my love of the Gospel, and the attuning work of Christ. I sincerely believed. It doesn't matter if some Christians will not accept that I was a Christian for theological reasons--I used to think God was real--now I don't.

I believed I felt the Holy Spirit, now I think there are psychological reasons why people hold religious ideas so strongly. Maybe I was being irrational, but mostly, I think I just didn't have all the facts or the critical thinking tools to reason well.

 

[Caliban]

Really? I guess I still lived with my parents at the time. Maybe it would have been different if it happened later. Wasn't really worried about them disowning me or anything. I could literally be on trail for mass murder and my parents would still show up to support me.. Like Jeffery Dahmer's parents, lol.

Yeah, I was actually a little hurt how my friends didn't seem to care that I was heading towards hell. They were nice about it and all, but the lack of response was surprising for me, lol. Reminds of that episode on Seinfeld where Elaine tells her dim witted jock-like boyfriend she does not believe in God after discovering he's religious. She's off put by how little he seems to care. She's like.. you need to be more concerned because I'm heading to hell the worst place there is! And he's like "so..?" and doesn't put much else thought into it.. lol.

That was my reaction also to many of my church friends. They just quit interacting with me--it went against everything our church taught. If you really thought I was going to hell, wouldn't you stop by for a beer and discuss it? We had a small church too--intimate. It simply confirmed to me that these people did not have the Holy Spirit--no one does. It is man made.

 

[Dansiph]

As a believer, I had a good friend leave the faith. At the time I took 1 John 2:19 serious--They went out from us, but they were not of us.... I believed in the Perseverance of the saints and Unconditional Election. Now I am in the same position as my friend and when I reflect on my life as a believer, I cannot doubt my own sincerity, my love of the Gospel, and the attuning work of Christ. I sincerely believed. It doesn't matter if some Christians will not accept that I was a Christian for theological reasons--I used to think God was real--now I don't.

I believed I felt the Holy Spirit, now I think there are psychological reasons why people hold religious ideas so strongly. Maybe I was being irrational, but mostly, I think I just didn't have all the facts or the critical thinking tools to reason well.

For me there was a time I took 1 John 2:19 seriously, until my own sporadic doubts came into play. I always come back stronger but I have the ablity to see how it could go the other way for others.

A big part of it all for me is I can't afford to be wrong. This will take a dramatic turn but I can't see how life has a point without God. What if hell is real and I'm doing nothing to warn others? I had to cofirm the name on wikipedia but what are your thoughts on Pascal's wager?

 

[ReesePiece23]

Me and my faith sort of met halfway. I was about 22 or 23 (somewhere around there, can't remember) and I wasn't really doing anything in life; I was just sort of bumbling about waiting for things to happen without really putting in any real effort.

I actually went to a discipleship group one night literally as something to do besides watching Eastenders - a childhood friend of mine ran it y'see, so I was only going JUST so that I could catch up with him. I had no intentions of becoming Christian - if anything I was more Buddhist than Christian (girlfriend influence.)

By virtue of that group, I was introduced to a guy who was around my dad's age. He was planning to run a weekly men's group - long story short, I went and THAT was when the truly freaky things started to happen.

I can only describe it as a sudden sensation of meeting my ACTUAL self for the first time. Now, he may have put something 'funny' in my coffee, he may have in some way brain washed me - who knows? (I was actually the only member, so literally, who knows?) All I do know is that I'm a better person for having gone through it.

I'm ambitious, thirsty for new knowledge, creative, confident and excited about life. And All I've really done is build it all up from there, day by day, step by step, brick by brick. Consistency is what it ultimately comes down to.

It also helps when the answers to prayer materialise in front of your eyes. It's one thing to be preached at - it's something completely different to physically SEE the manifestation. When the years between 2013 and 2019 played out EXACTLY as I asked for, I'm more sure than I am not that God is up there working overtime on me.

I'd describe my spirituality as moderate. Although I've seen some amazing things happen, I still operate in a low gear. While it's good to have intensity, you also need common sense and control. Otherwise you'd become hysterical.

Keep moving. If you can't run, walk. If you can't walk, crawl. If you can't crawl, get someone to boot you along. Just whatever you do in life, KEEP MOVING.

 

[Caliban]

For me there was a time I took 1 John 2:19 seriously, until my own sporadic doubts came into play. I always come back stronger but I have the ablity to see how it could go the other way for others.

A big part of it all for me is I can't afford to be wrong. This will take a dramatic turn but I can't see how life has a point without God. What if hell is real and I'm doing nothing to warn others? I had to cofirm the name on wikipedia but what are your thoughts on Pascal's wager?

When struggling with faith, I also leaned on the Wager for a time. My problem with it is that it seemed unbiblical (from my Christian perspective) and duplicitous. Theologically, I reasoned it does not seem to capture the true faith required of believers. It is hard to imagine the Holy Spirit considering the hedging of bets sincere devotion. Matthew 7:21 says: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven..." Are the people simply making a "wager" true believers who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Even as a believer I decided it didn't work theologically. Some call this the Argument from Inauthentic belief.

I now think that it is impossible to choose to believe something. We are convinced by things we perceive as reality for good or bad reasons). For example, consider if you could use Pascal's Wager to believe there are aliens on Venus. Why would this be impossible? You have no reason to think that it is true. It's not impossible. But that isn't how belief works. We can't just decide to believe a thing--we are convinced. Pascal's Wager fundamentally underestimates what true belief is.

I don't think there are very good reasons to hold theistic beliefs, but there are certainly better ones than the Wager. Just some thoughts.

What do you think?

 

[Dansiph]

When struggling with faith, I also leaned on the Wager for a time. My problem with it is that it seemed unbiblical (from my Christian perspective) and duplicitous. Theologically, I reasoned it does not seem to capture the true faith required of believers. It is hard to imagine the Holy Spirit considering the hedging of bets sincere devotion. Matthew 7:21 says: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven..." Are the people simply making a "wager" true believers who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Even as a believer I decided it didn't work theologically. Some call this the Argument from Inauthentic belief.

I now think that it is impossible to choose to believe something. We are convinced by things we perceive as reality for good or bad reasons). For example, consider if you could use Pascal's Wager to believe there are aliens on Venus. Why would this be impossible? You have no reason to think that it is true. It's not impossible. But that isn't how belief works. We can't just decide to believe a thing--we are convinced. Pascal's Wager fundamentally underestimates what true belief is.

I don't think there are very good reasons to hold theistic beliefs, but there are certainly better ones than the Wager. Just some thoughts.

What do you think?

I'm not sure, I think the wager holds more water than that. Especially considering the outcome of being wrong. I personally don't lean on Pascal's wager. It's just something I thought I would contemplate if I experienced extreme doubts. The thing with aliens on Venus is, it's observable and also they'd have to be some pretty hardy aliens to live in that climate and atmosphere.

Faith for me is partially defined by the Bible itself in Hebrews 11:1 All I am doing is relying on what Jesus did to get me to heaven. That trust, faith and belief is what I believe saves a person. I'm not saying you but I don't think any amount of thought and comtemplating will ever bring someone to saving faith.

 

[Bobber]

It also helps when the answers to prayer materialise in front of your eyes. It's one thing to be preached at - it's something completely different to physically SEE the manifestation.

Correct. That puts on into the position of KNOWING not just giving assent to mental beliefs. God is offering everyone however the KNOWING experience or better put the KNOWING relationship with him. Religious adherence alone doesn't provide that. One can go to church all their life, give lip service to beliefs that are on paper and NOT know God or have any intimate fellowship with him. I think it can be this way for individuals who have substituted a system of religion believing if God was real their system surely would have been sufficient enough to provide a KNOWING.

Church attendance, mental agreement of things, saying grace at the dinner table in other words they feel they did their part. No real mention of 1-2 hours a day praising and worshipping of God seeking to talk to him many moments of the day. I don't mean to offend but I have to say it's impossible for anyone to say they've ever had a KNOWING relationship with God and turn around and say they now don't even believe he exists. When one has tasted of the powers of the world to come they've tasted it and no so called educated university professor can talk one out of it.

 

[Caliban]

I'm not sure, I think the wager holds more water than that. Especially considering the outcome of being wrong. I personally don't lean on Pascal's wager. It's just something I thought I would contemplate if I experienced extreme doubts. The thing with aliens on Venus is, it's observable and also they'd have to be some pretty hardy aliens to live in that climate and atmosphere.

Faith for me is partially defined by the Bible itself in Hebrews 11:1 All I am doing is relying on what Jesus did to get me to heaven. That trust, faith and belief is what I believe saves a person. I'm not saying you but I don't think any amount of thought and comtemplating will ever bring someone to saving faith.

I hear ya. Have you considered the idea that if a person holds strongly to belief because they fear hell, it may be a case of the Bible creating the sickness to sell the cure?

There are some seriously strong arguments arguing that hell is impossible when considering a benevolent God.

 

[Caliban]

I don't mean to offend but I have to say it's impossible for anyone to say they've ever had a KNOWING relationship with God and turn around and say they now don't even believe he exists.

That is simply untrue. It happens all the time. You are drawing a theological conclusion for which there are mountains of contrary evidence. I used to believe--now I don't. It is simple. I even spoke in tongues.

 

[ReesePiece23]

Correct. That puts on into the position of KNOWING not just giving assent to mental beliefs. God is offering everyone however the KNOWING experience or better put the KNOWING relationship with him. Religious adherence alone doesn't provide that. One can go to church all their life, give lip service to beliefs that are on paper and NOT know God or have any intimate fellowship with him. I think it can be this way for individuals who have substituted a system of religion believing if God was real their system surely would have been sufficient enough to provide a KNOWING.

Church attendance, mental agreement of things, saying grace at the dinner table in other words they feel they did their part. No real mention of 1-2 hours a day praising and worshipping of God seeking to talk to him many moments of the day. I don't mean to offend but I have to say it's impossible for anyone to say they've ever had a KNOWING relationship with God and turn around and say they now don't even believe he exists. When one has tasted of the powers of the world to come they've tasted it and no so called educated university professor can talk one out of it.

I just don't think that there's enough honesty in some of these churches - I really don't. Far too many image conscious people loafing around in those seats. No one is 100% top of their game all of the time; THAT's the point. If you need help, ANY help at all, ask for it.

It all comes down to the power of asking when all is said and done. I might not be able to rattle off bible verses from the top of my head, but I KNOW who God is.

What's more important? (Well, both ideally, but you know what I mean.)

 

[Bobber]

That is simply untrue. It happens all the time. You are drawing a theological conclusion for which there are mountains of contrary evidence. I used to believe--now I don't. It is simple. I even spoke in tongues.

It's been my experience Caliban that mountains can be made out of molehills.

 

[Dansiph]

I hear ya. Have you considered the idea that if a person holds strongly to belief because they fear hell, it may be a case of the Bible creating the sickness to sell the cure?

There are some seriously strong arguments arguing that hell is impossible when considering a benevolent God.

I have considered that. I get my picture of God from the Bible though and it says there is a hell. Some seem to have a view of God which is not Biblical. I get mine from the Bible and if it says he has anger then he has anger. None of us deserve heaven and we all deserve hell. That's the starting point for me. As for the subject of this thread as my spiritual side increases the more I realise I don't deserve God's mercy.

 

[Dansiph]

3 Help me then in ev'ry tribulation
so to trust thy promises, O Lord,
that I lose not faith’s sweet consolation
offered me within thy holy Word.
Help me, Lord, when toil and trouble meeting,
e'er to take, as from a father’s hand,
one by one, the days, the moments fleeting,
'til I reach the promised land.

Just listening to this hymn and the author seems to be asking not to lose faith. I thought that was interesting.

 

[Caliban]

I have considered that. I get my picture of God from the Bible though and it says there is a hell. Some seem to have a view of God which is not Biblical. I get mine from the Bible and if it says he has anger then he has anger. None of us deserve heaven and we all deserve hell. That's the starting point for me. As for the subject of this thread as my spiritual side increases the more I realise I don't deserve God's mercy.

As a Christian, that was my position as well. I still have Sola Scripture tattooed on my forearm.

 

[Caliban]

It's been my experience Caliban that mountains can be made out of molehills.

Yes, religion is a molehill. You walked right into that one.

 

[Bobber]

3 Help me then in ev'ry tribulation
so to trust thy promises, O Lord,
that I lose not faith’s sweet consolation
offered me within thy holy Word.
Help me, Lord, when toil and trouble meeting,
e'er to take, as from a father’s hand,
one by one, the days, the moments fleeting,
'til I reach the promised land.

Just listening to this hymn and the author seems to be asking not to lose faith. I thought that was interesting.

I think there's two different things people can mean by saying they've lost faith.

Some say they've lost faith in that they don't even give mental assent that God exists. And then some say they've lost faith not that they don't believe God exists they do but they've lost faith that the Creator will help them. God wants to though.

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench..."
Isaiah 42:3

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I am interested in hearing about other people's experiences. This being CF, I suspect a more spiritually intense crowd than the average population. I am also curious about hearing stories from other former theists about experiencing some of the negative effects from losing their faith that I did.

I would say that I am very spiritual, and much more so than what I was younger.

A lot of my spirituality is about facing the problems of life and doing it well. e.g. - Things like death, failure and disappointment, heart break, even boredom and ennui. And not just getting through the problem for yourself, but helping others who face similar things and using that to find meaning and satisfaction in life.

 

[Dansiph]

As a Christian, that was my position as well. I still have Sola Scripture tattooed on my forearm.

That is something I find hard to get to grips with even though I can understand it also.