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In an intimate relationship such as marriage..those ACTS can not be distinguised from one another.
The "acts" themselves with the emotion not present..can "appear" both lovign and respectful.
The act you described the man doing in your example you called a "loving act"..Why?If there is no emotion behind it especially that same act could be just as easily labled a "respectful " act..You can not tell the two apart..
Dallas
I'm not making the distinction, St. Paul does in Ephesians. it could be a distinction without a difference. on the other hand, I'd characterize the situation where a husband gives 100% of personal care to his dying wife of 60 years for the last 6 months of her life more of an act of love rather than of respect.
If a man loves his wife as he is commanded (as Christ loves the Church; willingly die for her, etc) there's not likely to be any problem--
Most women are willing for a man to be "king" if he treats her like a "queen".
My Mom (in her 80's now) says-"all the social problems we have today started when
Men quit being Men and Women had to take over both roles. I've thought about it
& its alot deeper than it initially sounds..
But when did men quit being men and more importantly WHY did men quit being men?
If hard work becomes a thankless job and somebody else wants to do it... the average guy will gladly step aside and leave the drudgery to someone else.
When I asked when and why though I was not blaming anyone. But the statement you made about all social problems starting when men stopped being men DID seem to blame men.If you want a thankless job; try cleaning toilets, bathtubs, doing laundry & changing diapers & cooking meal after meal to have only complaints about too much salt, not enough gravy or whathave you. Try having to ask your spouse for every dime you want because you married a tightwad, alcoholic or porn addict.
Plus you are then supposed to be everthing they see on TV, Raise the Children, oh yeah & since most of em don't earn enough to suit themselves you are supposed to at "least" get a part-time job-- right? All of em want to lead, but few want to support.
Men quit being Men around the late 1850's throughout the 60's in MHO, Not all but in general. Perhpas it began with the "westward" movement, civil war and maybe World War II that brought it all to the forefront.
What is the ROOT of all evil-(we all know it's GREED)
Perhaps it was compounded by the roaring 20's when lust & other things moved to the forefront of our society and as any untreated illness have gotten progressively worse. And of course the 60-'s CAPPED it off-there's no going back now.
But When & Why or BLAME doesn't get us anywhere-really. It was probably some of all the above including the views that ALeaf has. Many Women never seem to be satisfified w/their man's income & want more & more things.
This is one of those problems that is not likely to be remedied-I figure we are going to have to just accept that the roles have changed for most households til Jesus comes back.
One thing that is Good that has come out of it all it I think we have found out there is only ONE race & that is HUMAN...
So if we can just all treat each other as human, maybe all the rest will not present so many problems.
I think that love and respect have to be both an emotion AND an action. The verse that comes to mind immediately is 1 Corinthians 13:3The Bible doesn't speak of "respect" as a feeling, but as an action (same with love, too). You can and should control your actions no matter how you "feel."
If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn't love others, I would have gained nothing.
It used to be that men brought home the bacon and the family appreciated that. Now they don't appreciate that and women increasingly want to do it. If hard work becomes a thankless job and somebody else wants to do it... the average guy will gladly step aside and leave the drudgery to someone else.
Not so sure this speaks to the start of the problem but today right now, the reason that a lot of men aren't real men is because every message they've received from birth is that women don't want real men.
The reason that a lot of men aren't real men is because every message they've received from birth is that women don't want real men.
I was thinking the same thing, when I read that.....because I THOUGHT I DID want a real man for a husband....so maybe the disconnect is in the definition of what that really is.I'm very curious for more clarification about this. What ARE "real men?" Because I sure as heck want (and now have) a "real" man. He works hard to make sure his family is taken care of financially, emotionally and spiritually. He treats me with love and respect, takes my opinions and input as seriously as his own, and is a very involved leader of a father to our kids. He is not a jellyfish or a coward when we have things to work out together, but he also doesn't go to the other extreme and wield his perceived God-given authority over me like an entitled child (anymore...LOL). This is the kind of man I was raised to want and honestly, I think it's the kind of man that MOST women want. I THINK that most women don't want a spineless jellyfish they can boss around, but nor do they want to be the spineless jellyfish being bossed around. I honestly think most women nowadays are looking for a strong partner who respects her as his equal, and I believe based on Biblical values of mutual submission and selfless, sacrificial love, that this is what men are called to be for their wives. We used to see it differently (the more "traditional" view of marriage and husbands' and wives' roles...he used to be the breadwinner and the "boss") and we're BOTH (yes, both of us, not just me) much happier now that our understanding and relationship dynamics have changed.
I seriously find this notion of "real" men interesting and hope more will weigh in on the subject!
I'm very curious for more clarification about this. What ARE "real men?" Because I sure as heck want (and now have) a "real" man. He works hard to make sure his family is taken care of financially, emotionally and spiritually. He treats me with love and respect, takes my opinions and input as seriously as his own, and is a very involved leader of a father to our kids. He is not a jellyfish or a coward when we have things to work out together, but he also doesn't go to the other extreme and wield his perceived God-given authority over me like an entitled child (anymore...LOL). This is the kind of man I was raised to want and honestly, I think it's the kind of man that MOST women want. I THINK that most women don't want a spineless jellyfish they can boss around, but nor do they want to be the spineless jellyfish being bossed around. I honestly think most women nowadays are looking for a strong partner who respects her as his equal, and I believe based on Biblical values of mutual submission and selfless, sacrificial love, that this is what men are called to be for their wives. We used to see it differently (the more "traditional" view of marriage and husbands' and wives' roles...he used to be the breadwinner and the "boss") and we're BOTH (yes, both of us, not just me) much happier now that our understanding and relationship dynamics have changed.
I seriously find this notion of "real" men interesting and hope more will weigh in on the subject!
Ultimate example of a real man is Jesus. And as much as this will be denied I guarantee that most women would not be happy being married to someone who accurately reflects all aspects of Jesus nature. Sure they all want the sacrificial love part but that's by no means all or even most of who He was/is. As soon as we start talking about the direct or confrontational part of Jesus nature we get all sorts of "reasons" why we can't be that way ranging from the plainly false notion that Jesus was that way only rarely or as a last resort, to "we don't have His perfect discernment so we can't know when we should act that way."
The talk of wielding authority like a spoiled child though tells me that I'm already being heard as saying something that hasn't even been brought up so I'm out. Have fun.
I find your first paragraph interesting but since you're out I guess there's no point responding and trying to have a discussion about it with you. You have said what you wanted to say, now you're walking out in a huff! I'll respond to it anyways in case anyone else is interested.
The problem is, believe it or not, wish to acknowledge it or not, there ARE a lot of men out there who misinterpret what the Bible describes a man's role should be in the home and DO wield authority like an entitled child. IMO, Autumnleaf's post referring to men not being appreciated for being the primary breadwinners anymore reflected that. I'm not saying at all that Autumn is an entitled child in his own home at all, I'm just acknowledging that many men feel that being a "real" man involves bringing home the only paycheque and therefore earning the right to be the appreciated authority in his home. I've lived with and once catered to that dynamic myself. The truth is, though, the Bible says nothing that promotes the common belief that wives should stay at home and do the housework and the parenting and men should go out and earn a living and then come home and let his family know who's boss. I didn't say YOU do or that you were advocating that behaviour, but apparently you've taken it that way. Ever wonder why so many women have difficulty with the authority/submission discussion? Perhaps because so many of us have dealt with men who believe that they have authority in the home on every gray-area issue JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE MALE, or that earning the $$ makes the man, etc, and we have suffered for it. So I was curious as to what things people believe "make the man." If you can't handle that and it offends you then I guess you SHOULDN'T get into it.
As for the paragraph about Jesus being a real man...sure. He was the ultimate example of a human being for all of us. One can only speculate about how He would have interacted with a wife and children as He didn't have them. We can see how he was with crowds, people He was teaching, those who persecuted Him, and His friends. I agree that He showed sacrificial love but could also be very direct. I personally have no objections to people being direct and confrontational when they're certain about something. I have done it with my h when he was obviously in the wrong and he ultimately respected it, and vice versa. I appreciate directness and even believe it's necessary and the Christian community's responsibility to deliver it when morality is clear. However, I guess you see this as people's "last resort" and therefore wrong, but I think it IS important, especially in a marriage relationship, to stay humble and remember that we DON'T have the ultimately always-right discernment that Jesus as God Himself was blessed with. Often your spouse will have a different perspective in a situation than you, when the right/wrong is NOT so clear to both. OVERconfidence in a man who asserts his authority in the home can be a disastrous situation. If we believe that men and women both have brains, equal value and different perspectives, and if both are earnestly seeking out the will of the Lord but are not agreeing on something (happens a lot), then I believe it IS important for them to work together towards a solution they can both be at peace with instead of the man just putting down his foot and choosing his way because he thinks he can or should because he's the man. Truth is, men are just as fallible as women and women also have relationship with and insight from God that should be respected, listened to and honoured, IMO. This need to honour women's opinions and needs is why I believe the Bible spells out the requirement of husband's to go as far as to lay down his life for his wife. Not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but if a man is doing that he is going to be far from the man that wields his authority in the home like an entitled child as I described. Doesn't mean his WIFE is now "the boss" and gets the final say on all decisions either as some think, as she is also called to yield to her husband within the will of the Lord, so in reality BOTH are being urged to put each other's needs before their own.
I'm very curious for more clarification about this. What ARE "real men?" Because I sure as heck want (and now have) a "real" man. He works hard to make sure his family is taken care of financially, emotionally and spiritually. He treats me with love and respect, takes my opinions and input as seriously as his own, and is a very involved leader of a father to our kids. He is not a jellyfish or a coward when we have things to work out together, but he also doesn't go to the other extreme and wield his perceived God-given authority over me like an entitled child (anymore...LOL). This is the kind of man I was raised to want and honestly, I think it's the kind of man that MOST women want. I THINK that most women don't want a spineless jellyfish they can boss around, but nor do they want to be the spineless jellyfish being bossed around. I honestly think most women nowadays are looking for a strong partner who respects her as his equal, and I believe based on Biblical values of mutual submission and selfless, sacrificial love, that this is what men are called to be for their wives. We used to see it differently (the more "traditional" view of marriage and husbands' and wives' roles...he used to be the breadwinner and the "boss") and we're BOTH (yes, both of us, not just me) much happier now that our understanding and relationship dynamics have changed.
I seriously find this notion of "real" men interesting and hope more will weigh in on the subject!
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