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How important is free will?
- Thread starter jacknife
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The point of the story was that she was not allowed to choose death.
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- Oct 22, 2014
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Maybe, maybe not, you get free will mixed in with a constraint, but is it free will then? Can you have mostly free will or is it an all or nothing dsal?
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To call it "free will" it must all or nothing. That's what "free" always means. If you're constrained or if you must pay consequences, then it's not free. It's then just a choice with the options decreed by some other moral agent.
Scripture denies free will.
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness -- Romans 6
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. -- Romans 8
Scripture points out in many places that we don't have free will, we have a choice, and that choice is constrained, with consequences ultimately imposed for choosing wrong. A choice to be slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, and even that single choice is possible only by the grace of God.
A choice of master is not free will.
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- Dec 10, 2003
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Well, no.
And the two words "free will" on their own are meaningless. You need to be more specific in the definition.
Scripture certainly doesn't deny the reality of compatibilist free will.
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"Compatibilist free will."
That's just a mishy-mashy term for people who refuse to admit they lost the argument. "Free" means "free." "Free" is an absolute term like "unique."
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- Dec 10, 2003
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It's a perfectly valid philosophical term (plus it happens to describe what I believe).
Your view is.... very unique.
And nobody is absolutely free on any sane view. I'm not free to fly by flapping my arms, for example. I'm not free to defy gravity.
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It's a perfectly valid philosophical term (plus it happens to describe what I believe).
Your view is.... very unique.
And nobody is absolutely free on any sane view. I'm not free to fly by flapping my arms, for example. I'm not free to defy gravity.
No, my view is not unique. It's just not compatibilist.
"Free will"--despite compatibilism--would be the freedom of a moral agent to act on his own moral choices without constraints or consequences imposed by any other moral agent. If another moral agent is able to impose constraints or consequences on one's actions, then does not have free will.
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- Dec 10, 2003
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It's certain not the libertarian definition that you're giving.
That "consequences" part is something I've ever seen before. Since all actions have consequences, nobody is free on that definition, making it imho less than helpful.
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Adding the "by any other moral agent" part is interesting, but I'm not sure it helps. Imagine a universe where determinism is true - there's no possible way to chose anything because things are totally predetermined. Move someone to a deserted island in this universe and by your definition they would suddenly have free will. That's even though they were totally unable to choose anything, because this universe they live in doesn't have even the possibility of choice.
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holo
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The fact that we do what we want doesn't mean our will is free, because we don't choose to want the things we want. Even when we change our desires, like changing our diets and not craving sugar anymore after a while, the desire to change is itself not something we chose freely. It comes from somewhere, and if you trace it back, you'll always find that "somewhere" wasn't in your free will. It came from the media, your family, your genes and other places, none of which are *you*.
I agree with @RDKirk that free well isn't supported by the bible either. Not only does it go against a bunch of scripture where God clearly controls people, it goes against the very idea of God being omnipotent. To a Christian, that should be good news, because it means that man doesn't in fact have the power to mess up God's plans and that God's will shall be done no matter what.
It's great news for the rest of us too, because it means nobody has any real reason to condemn each other morally.
I agree with @RDKirk that free well isn't supported by the bible either. Not only does it go against a bunch of scripture where God clearly controls people, it goes against the very idea of God being omnipotent. To a Christian, that should be good news, because it means that man doesn't in fact have the power to mess up God's plans and that God's will shall be done no matter what.
It's great news for the rest of us too, because it means nobody has any real reason to condemn each other morally.
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Within the "Christian Universe" (let's pretend for a moment as if we're Star Wars fans or Star Trek fans talking about the canon universes of our particular fandom), imagine a universe where there is an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God. Because He is a sentient being with a will and plans of His own, He can let the universe roll along the deterministic path of His design, but that incredibly intricate design also allows for decision gates.
Like the old-school pinball machines, the ball has many paths it can take, but they all eventually lead to the same outcome.
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- Dec 24, 2018
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Freewill = Spirit = Life = love Creator's Law
Captive will = Flesh = death = hate Creator's Law
The question now is, how do we get our minds there?
Do we choose our governor?
*I hope and pray that the One Who conquered death, i.e., broke the will free, come for me also.
"For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of Yahuah to be revealed."
--Romans 8:19
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN
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No , people shouldn't make choices , that harm other people. But sadly it happens and the victims have to deal with the nightmare.
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durangodawood
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Compatibilism is not about any sort of actual free will. Real "free" will requires that some part of a decision originate in the will.... and not entirely as a consequence of past events.
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- Dec 24, 2018
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Well, it's my take on the Scripture you provided...in that moment...
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