How, if at all, should science relate with Christianity?: an open exploration thread

[juvenissun]

Insects do not have four legs.

So ... ?

 

[Mallon]

Please try one you do agree.

Sorry. Not much interested in debating the scientific merits of particular Bible verses with you right now. You asked for a few examples of where the Bible is wrong on science, and I provided a big list. You're free to ignore it, too, if you want.

 

[Scotishfury09]

So ... ?

All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground.

Leviticus 11:20-21

If neither insects nor birds have four legs how is this scientifically accurate?

 

[crawfish]

Yes, you may say that. .

However, we may accept that one, two, or three, or four matches to be accidental. But if there were 20 or 30, hmm.... something must be going on.

I am sure we could easily (?) find more than 100 examples in the Bible that "seemingly" match modern science with the scripture verses.

Some science messages hidden in the Scripture are NOT directly observable by Biblical authors. For example, something hidden in the deep ground (miles deep), something only exist at the bottom of deep sea, and something which is simply not visible such as energy, force, various processes, etc. If I could, I will explain all them at later time.

That only works if you cannot find one, two, three, 20 or 30 examples of where scripture does NOT reflect reality. If you can, then any scientific truth you read is most likely arbitrary.

 

[juvenissun]

(Sorry that I responded to wrong place/person. I do not know how to delete this one)

 

[juvenissun]

All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground.

Leviticus 11:20-21

If neither insects nor birds have four legs how is this scientifically accurate?

This is a wonderful verse indeed. I am not a biologist. But even me, could see the amazing accuracy of Biblical description.

Regards to translation errors and related arguments, you may find tons of commentaries somewhere else. But to me, I have another explanation (I am not sure how correct is it, but criticism is welcome): Insects has six legs, but they really only use four at a time in walking.

A quick reference on this issue is here: http://www.mindcreators.com/InsectLocomotion.htm

Is that amazing?

 

[Assyrian]

This is a wonderful verse indeed. I am not a biologist. But even me, could see the amazing accuracy of Biblical description.

Regards to translation errors and related arguments, you may find tons of commentaries somewhere else. But to me, I have another explanation (I am not sure how correct is it, but criticism is welcome): Insects has six legs, but they really only use four at a time in walking.

A quick reference on this issue is here: http://www.mindcreators.com/InsectLocomotion.htm

Is that amazing?

It is amazing how insects walk. It is also amazing how you get 'walking on all fours' from that.

http://www.mindcreators.com/InsectLocomotion.htm

There are two primary gaits that insects use for walking. These are the metochronal wave and the tripod gate. These are really just extreme ends of a continuum of gates. The metochronal wave gate is used for slower walking speeds and the tripod gate is used for faster speeds. The insect can also mix them to walk at different speeds in between the two types of gaits. Figure 2 shows a timeline that displays both of the gates. The metachronal wave gait is the slowest of the gates for an insect. It's seen when a "wave" of leg movements ripples down each side of the insect. A good example of this type of gait is a caterpillar. The tripod gait is the fastest of the gaits. In it, the insect always has two legs on the ground on one side and one leg on the ground on the other side such that it forms a tripod. This can be seen in Figure 3. So three of the legs are on the ground and moving backwards while the other three legs are raised and moving forward. As the feet on the ground are moved back, this causes the body of the insect to move forward. Then when the raised legs are all the way forward they lower to make contact, and the legs that were down are raised and the whole pattern is repeated.

 

[juvenissun]

It is amazing how insects walk. It is also amazing how you get 'walking on all fours' from that.

So, according to you, are we walk only "on one" foot/leg? Ha ha ...

 

[Scotishfury09]

So, according to you, are we walk only "on one" foot/leg? Ha ha ...

Actually, I think that's deduced from your logic. You claim insects only use 4 or their 6 legs at a time (which Assyrian just debunked). We only use 1 of our 2 at a time. See the connection?

 

[juvenissun]

Actually, I think that's deduced from your logic. You claim insects only use 4 or their 6 legs at a time (which Assyrian just debunked). We only use 1 of our 2 at a time. See the connection?

OK, I am sorry that I did not have a correct image in my mind. So, I click the second hit in my search and I got this:

http://chabin.laurent.free.fr/gaits.htm

I do not have an engineer's mind, so the sequencing thing is a little bit tangled up in me at this time. However, I can conclude that insects DO NOT use all of their six legs at the same time to perform the function of walk. This would make the Bible verse stand correct in an amazing degree of accuracy.

May be we should define first on what is walk and how do we count which leg is actually "walking". Shouldn't we?

 

[Scotishfury09]

OK, I am sorry that I did not have a correct image in my mind. So, I click the second hit in my search and I got this:

http://chabin.laurent.free.fr/gaits.htm

I do not have an engineer's mind, so the sequencing thing is a little bit tangled up in me at this time. However, I can conclude that insects DO NOT use all of their six legs at the same time to perform the function of walk. This would make the Bible verse stand correct in an amazing degree of accuracy.

May be we should define first on what is walk and how do we count which leg is actually "walking". Shouldn't we?

If you think that'll help, absolutely. Why not?

The act of walking is considered to involve all limbs that are used to "walk" (barring physical disabilities), correct?

All six legs are contributing to the process of walking at all times. Picking the leg up is just as pivotal to walking as putting the leg down and propelling your body forward.

If you can explain to me how, at any given time, a leg is not used to walk (remember, fully functioning, no disabilities) I'll concede.

 

[Mallon]

If you can explain to me how, at any given time, a leg is not used to walk (remember, fully functioning, no disabilities) I'll concede.

Aye. Walking involves more than just having your foot planted on the ground. The other leg must move forward at the same time if you plan on going anywhere. All legs are used for walking.
Methinks juvenissun is just digging himself deeper and deeper in order to defend his idea that the Bible is scientifically inerrant.

 

[IndyPirate]

May be we should define first on what is walk and how do we count which leg is actually "walking". Shouldn't we?

It doesn't really matter which definition of "walking" you want to use, it's still not going to add up to four.

 

[Assyrian]

So, according to you, are we walk only "on one" foot/leg? Ha ha ...

No that would be the way your interpretation works with people.

If you describe insect motion as going about on all fours, then walking is going about 'on one'. But people with one leg hop. We use both legs when we walk, the fact the we move one foot at a time does not change the fact we are using both in a bipedal locomotion. Insects have six legs and use all six when they walk.

 

[juvenissun]

No that would be the way your interpretation works with people.

If you describe insect motion as going about on all fours, then walking is going about 'on one'. But people with one leg hop. We use both legs when we walk, the fact the we move one foot at a time does not change the fact we are using both in a bipedal locomotion. Insects have six legs and use all six when they walk.

Walk with two legs means that while one leg is used to support the body, another leg is moving forward. And the action repeats. This is the minimum condition for the definition. There has to be one leg on the solid ground. Otherwise, it is run or hop. Mechanically, both legs are alternately used in applying force to propel the body.

If there were three legs, then it is possible the third leg is not really functional all the time, but take turns. It does not matter whether the third one is on the ground or in the air when the body moves. The walk is actually done by two of the tree. How do we know exactly if the third leg is participating or not? I think it would take a study to see if the muscle of the third leg is in a state of rest or not when the pushing is performed. I do not know if such type of study were ever done.

The argument would be similar to creatures that have more than three legs. Four legs situation is probably the most common as a body would be sufficiently supported by three legs. Suppose a bug has six legs. While three legs are on the ground, the other three “have to” move forward at the same time, no matter they are in the state of contraction or rest. If it is 3-up-3-down situation (there are other situations), we can not be sure whether the three suspended legs are all used in walking or only one or two are actually used and the other one or two are in rest or used for other purposes. It would take more study to find it out. As far as I know, the locomotive study on the walking of insect does not address their physiological details at all.

Four legs is enough to walk at a stable condition. However, many robots we see today still use six legs. Obviously the purpose of having two more legs on robot is not to walk, but to increase the stability of the body. Without knowing the physiology of insects, it is my speculation that the six legs of insect may work on the same principle as a six-leg robot.

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A side-track challenge to biological evolutionist: Is the six-leg insect evolved from some type of four-leg creature? If some dinosaurs used two legs to walk, why don’t we see more bipedal animals in the early Cenozoic? Or to reverse the question, why did some dinosaurs walk with two legs?

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The fact that it takes so many studies in the 20-21 Century to investigate how does insect walk is way enough to suggest that many Bible verses are very scientifically profound and correct. When Moses and others saw insects have six legs, why didn’t he just say six-legs to avoid any confusion, skepticism or even trouble (remind you what this verse is for. It is for FOOD, a very practical purpose)? Are Jewish people in so many thousands of years all blind on this verse? Why wasn’t there a smart rabbi who caught this “mistake” and “corrected” it or made a note of it? I think that is what some of the smart scientific people will do today.

 

[Mallon]

A side-track challenge to biological evolutionist: Is the six-leg insect evolved from some type of four-leg creature?

Nope. Insects evolved from more primitive arthropods, being highly segmented and having many more legs (not fewer). The evolutionary mechanisms of this transformation are fairly well understood.

If some dinosaurs used two legs to walk, why don’t we see more bipedal animals in the early Cenozoic?

Because bipedalism is not only energetically costly, but relatively unstable as well.
Regardless, we DO see some facultative bipedal forms in the Cenozoic.

Or to reverse the question, why did some dinosaurs walk with two legs?

Because, besides being costly and unstable, bipedalism offers many advantages, too. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipedalism#Advantages
Whether one clade becomes bipedal largely depends on whether the benefits outweigh the costs. Sometimes they do; sometimes they don't. Simple as that.

The fact that it takes so many studies in the 20-21 Century to investigate how does insect walk is way enough to suggest that many Bible verses are very scientifically profound and correct.

Obviously they are not, given that we've just shown that the Bible is wrong when it comes to four-legged insects. Ad hoc explanations like the ones you've provided don't make that fact go away. No amount of science will ever show that insects walk on four legs when we can see with our own eyes that they don't.

When Moses and others saw insects have six legs, why didn’t he just say six-legs to avoid any confusion, skepticism or even trouble (remind you what this verse is for. It is for FOOD, a very practical purpose)? Are Jewish people in so many thousands of years all blind on this verse? Why wasn’t there a smart rabbi who caught this “mistake” and “corrected” it or made a note of it? I think that is what some of the smart scientific people will do today.

Because Moses and his followers weren't concerned with scientific accuracy. They weren't naturalists. They weren't interested in describing the natural world.
It boggles the mind that you can't yet see this most obvious answer.

 

[Assyrian]

Walk with two legs means that while one leg is used to support the body, another leg is moving forward. And the action repeats. This is the minimum condition for the definition. There has to be one leg on the solid ground. Otherwise, it is run or hop. Mechanically, both legs are alternately used in applying force to propel the body.

If there were three legs, then it is possible the third leg is not really functional all the time, but take turns. It does not matter whether the third one is on the ground or in the air when the body moves. The walk is actually done by two of the tree. How do we know exactly if the third leg is participating or not? I think it would take a study to see if the muscle of the third leg is in a state of rest or not when the pushing is performed. I do not know if such type of study were ever done. The argument would be similar to creatures that have more than three legs. Four legs situation is probably the most common as a body would be sufficiently supported by three legs. Suppose a bug has six legs. While three legs are on the ground, the other three “have to” move forward at the same time, no matter they are in the state of contraction or rest. If it is 3-up-3-down situation (there are other situations), we can not be sure whether the three suspended legs are all used in walking or only one or two are actually used and the other one or two are in rest or used for other purposes.

Which legs do you suppose are at rest? The three that are supporting the insect? If those three legs are not supporting it, the insect would fall over. Meanwhile the three legs in the air are being actively moved forward to take up their new positions. If the insect did not move one of the legs, it would just drag behind. If ithe insect is moving the three legs forward, then they are not at rest either.

It would take more study to find it out. As far as I know, the locomotive study on the walking of insect does not address their physiological details at all.

Four legs is enough to walk at a stable condition. However, many robots we see today still use six legs. Obviously the purpose of having two more legs on robot is not to walk, but to increase the stability of the body. Without knowing the physiology of insects, it is my speculation that the six legs of insect may work on the same principle as a six-leg robot.

----------

A side-track challenge to biological evolutionist: Is the six-leg insect evolved from some type of four-leg creature? If some dinosaurs used two legs to walk, why don’t we see more bipedal animals in the early Cenozoic? Or to reverse the question, why did some dinosaurs walk with two legs?

---------

The fact that it takes so many studies in the 20-21 Century to investigate how does insect walk is way enough to suggest that many Bible verses are very scientifically profound and correct.

The more research is being done that shows your interpretation is completely wrong, the more you take it as evidence you are right?

When Moses and others saw insects have six legs, why didn’t he just say six-legs to avoid any confusion, skepticism or even trouble (remind you what this verse is for. It is for FOOD, a very practical purpose)? Are Jewish people in so many thousands of years all blind on this verse? Why wasn’t there a smart rabbi who caught this “mistake” and “corrected” it or made a note of it? I think that is what some of the smart scientific people will do today.

So you are saying that to obey the kosher laws, the Israelites needed high speed cameras with macro lenses to analyse insect locomotion and find out which insects really walk on all fours

 

[juvenissun]

Which legs do you suppose are at rest? The three that are supporting the insect? If those three legs are not supporting it, the insect would fall over. Meanwhile the three legs in the air are being actively moved forward to take up their new positions. If the insect did not move one of the legs, it would just drag behind. If ithe insect is moving the three legs forward, then they are not at rest either.

The question is when the three legs on the ground are going to take off, are all three pushing? or are just one or two of them pushing?

This question would make more sense if you think about a situation when the bug walks slowly and have 5 legs on ground at the same time. Each of these five legs raised up in sequence. Now, among the 5 on the ground, which one or which few are pushing? By definition, they are the ones used in walking, but not all 5.

 

[Scotishfury09]

The question is when the three legs on the ground are going to take off, are all three pushing? or are just one or two of them pushing?

It's not the act of pushing, it's the act of WALKING

This question would make more sense if you think about a situation when the bug walks slowly and have 5 legs on ground at the same time. Each of these five legs raised up in sequence. Now, among the 5 on the ground, which one or which few are pushing? By definition, they are the ones used in walking, but not all 5.

Can't you see how absurd you are? You have to stretch so much of reality. Can you really not see this?

 

[Assyrian]

The question is when the three legs on the ground are going to take off, are all three pushing? or are just one or two of them pushing?

The legs on the ground about to take off are not pushing, they are being lifted up. All three legs have to be lifted up by the insect, or they wouldn't come off the ground.

This question would make more sense if you think about a situation when the bug walks slowly and have 5 legs on ground at the same time. Each of these five legs raised up in sequence.

All six legs are lifted up in sequence.

Now, among the 5 on the ground, which one or which few are pushing? By definition, they are the ones used in walking, but not all 5.

Only by a definition that would describe human walking as 'going about on one foot', or a horse as bipedal.