How I lost my Faith; through study of Early Christian History...

BrotherAtArms · Jun 27, 2008

In reading the OP's first post, it appears to me that you were searching for God out of logic rather than faith to begin with. If you do it that way, most of the time you will disprove that God exists.
I do know of scientists who sought to prove God false through science, only to discover for themselves that He does exist.

God is above logic, He's outside of it, you won't find Him by trying to find out something about the authors of the 4 Gospels.
I could sit here and tell you that a lot of the events in history that 'there's no proof for' were covered up, but I have no evidence. Honestly, I have no evidence God exists or that Jesus is the Christ other than the fact that I know I feel His presence and He speaks to me (not audibly mind you).
It just surprises me that someone would try to search for more truth about Jesus outside of His own Word.

I'm sorry that through nice sounding doctrines outside the Bible based on logic and false perceptions of history you were able to leave God.
Yes life on earth goes on after you lose your faith... but not after death.

I don't know that you will, but you really need to search for God in the only way He can be found, and that's through prayer. You can't find Him in a text book, you can only read about Him until you receive your faith back, then the Bible, His love letter to you, will literally start speaking to you directly.

Radiata · Jul 2, 2008

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Epiphoskei said:
Oh, I accept the traditional dates as as good as any others, but those are based on tradition, and there is no solid reason for selecting earlier or later dates. 125 is the absolute limit, though, as John's earliest mauscripts date to 125, and John is clearly youngest of all 4.

I read the first page, and what I'm saying may or may not have been said already, but I want to build a case for a better date that the gospels were written. This one comes from Lee Strobal in "The Case for Christ"

Basically, Luke was a close friend and partner with Paul. Paul's ministry is in Acts and recorded by Luke. Being such a close acquaintance of Paul, you would think that Luke would have mentioned Paul's death in 63AD. Yet Acts ends abruptly and makes no mention of the fact despite all of the class A historical facts that he puts so much effort into preserving. (Luke deserves to be remembered as one of the greatest historians of all time due to his accuracy.) Therefore, we can conclude that Acts must have been written before 63AD. And since Acts is a 2 part book that in its beginning says that the first part was his gospel, we know that his gospel was written even before that. Possibly in the mid-50's. And since we know that Luke was written after Mark, we can also make the connection and say that Mark was written even earlier before that. Possibly only 20 years after the resurrection. Let me give you a comparison. The earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Pllutarch more than 400 years after Alexander's death in 323BC. Yet historians consider them to be generally trustworthy. Yes, legendary material about Alexander did develop over time, but was only in the centuries after these two writers. Now compare that to the gospels that were written by eyewitness accounts possibly less then 30 years after the event. Compared to Alexander, that's a news flash. And it isn't like we have many copies of Arrian and Pllutarch today, whereas we have over 5,000 manuscripts of the new testament surviving with thousands more fragments of scripture dating back to the first centaury. "It must be said that the amount of time between the original composition and the next surviving manuscript is far less for the New Testament than for any other work in Greek literature. Although there are certainly minute differences in many of the New Testament manuscripts, not one fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading." "To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the new testament." In other words, with the mountain of evidence backing the New Testament, if you consider them false, then you would have to also consider every other fact discovered in the ancient world to be false as well.[/FONT]

Tweek · Jul 3, 2008

OnceUponAChristian said:
Hail to All,

I was once a liberal Christian for a fair bit of time in my life yet knew very little about the inception of the Bible, the religion and Christian history proper. I began studying the subject in complete innocence some ten years ago, something that eventually led me away from Christianity to Agnosticism/Apatheism, simply by researching history...it is true; in some ways ignorance IS bliss...

To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled. Anonymous writers, writing decades after the 'fact' with Mark being the first around 70 CE and all the others copying him in the 80's, 90's CE and later. Studying Paul's epistles and other writings I searched in vain for the Gospel events described by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He doesn't even talk about a man who lived on earth recently; no Mary, Joseph, Herod, Pilate, Temptation, etc...

Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT and the that the various events weren't attested at all, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod, seemingly derived straight from the OT book of Exodus, the trial of Jesus and all of these other 'events'. All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

I can honestly say that I am happier now with the knowledge I have acquired than I was when I was living in 'faith' to things that were simply beaten into me as a child and I accepted on no good grounds.

This is a message of hope for those who are going through this process brought about by enquiry. Life DOES continue after you lose faith and it can be even better than it was with it...

The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...

It's amazing how many people are black and white about this. Either everything in the Bible is true, or none of it is and what might be true is very questionable. Have you ever considered that some of the events in the Bible did happen, but not exactly as they were described? Or that perhaps all the superantural events concerning Jesus were made up by his disciples to justify their own beliefs and support the beliefs of new converts?

BrotherAtArms · Jul 3, 2008

It's interesting though that the Bible doesn't teach that knowledge or even prophesy would save people, it's that we show love even to our enemies. I could show a person an angel from Heaven, but it's love that saves them.

wmssid · Aug 6, 2008

"For the natural man (you) seeks not the things of the Spirit of the God, for they are foolishness to him, not can he know for they are spiritually discerned" - 1 Cor 2.14.

This, and many other similar verses, means that God did not intend for you, or for anyone else, to learn about Him from reading the Bible.

The Book of Acts is dogmatically clear that: "Men are saved by witnesses."

Only after you are saved, and if, you continue until you receive the supernatural Spirit of the supernatural God, can you understand the Bible.

You made one semi-correct statement, that the New Testament was not written until AD 54-67.

But then, who needed a Bible? The local congregation had prophets.

You were born in a "dead zone." That is why you are in the dark.

When I was 10 years old, I learned more about the Living God, and the prophecies in Revelation, than any man living since 1948.

For one hour, an expert in prophecy taught me a "summary of Revelation" about -- Jesus lives! -- today! -- on earth!

"He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" - Rom 9.18.

wmssid

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 6, 2008

BrotherAtArms said:
It's interesting though that the Bible doesn't teach that knowledge or even prophesy would save people, it's that we show love even to our enemies. I could show a person an angel from Heaven, but it's love that saves them.

Greetings. Then why do so many Christian focus on endtime prophecies today?

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the fruits of it.

Reve 12:8 and not he is strong, neither Place found of Them still in the Heaven. [Matt 21:43/Reve 20:11]

Reve 20:11 And I saw a throne, *great white. And the One-sitting/kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) on it, from Who's Face/proswpou <4383> fled the Land and the Heaven and Place not was found to-them.

BrotherAtArms · Aug 6, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings. Then why do so many Christian focus on endtime prophecies today?

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the fruits of it.

Reve 12:8 and not he is strong, neither Place found of Them still in the Heaven. [Matt 21:43/Reve 20:11]

Reve 20:11 And I saw a throne, *great white. And the One-sitting/kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) on it, from Who's Face/proswpou <4383> fled the Land and the Heaven and Place not was found to-them.

I know that the Bible teaches:

By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

We Receive Christ by Personal Invitation [ Jesus Christ speaking] Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him (Revelation 3:20).

I know that there is a certain verse, I don't know it right off hand, but it actually says that loving others is what brings them to salvation.
I will look for it for you, and I actually did a study on this once... But I've found that the more you show people how much prophesy is real they always come up with, "Well that could just be coincidence." It hardly ever fails, but loving others when they don't deserve, who can explain that?

Radiata · Aug 6, 2008

BrotherAtArms said:
I know that there is a certain verse, I don't know it right off hand, but it actually says that loving others is what brings them to salvation.
I will look for it for you, and I actually did a study on this once... But I've found that the more you show people how much prophesy is real they always come up with, "Well that could just be coincidence." It hardly ever fails, but loving others when they don't deserve, who can explain that?

So what we do now detirmines our salvation? God help us, the world is doomed!

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 6, 2008

Originally Posted by BrotherAtArms

I know that there is a certain verse, I don't know it right off hand, but it actually says that loving others is what brings them to salvation.
I will look for it for you, and I actually did a study on this once... But I've found that the more you show people how much prophesy is real they always come up with, "Well that could just be coincidence." It hardly ever fails, but loving others when they don't deserve, who can explain that?

Here are a few verses off the top of my head:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:43 "Ye hear that was declared 'Thou shalt be loving thy neighbour, and shall be hating thy enemy'
44 I am saying yet unto ye, be loving thine enemies, be blessing them that are cursing thee, be doing good to them that are hating thee, and be praying over those chasing/persecuting thee.

Luke 6:35 Morely be loving thine enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, nothing expecting, and shall be the wages of ye much, and ye shall be sons of Most-High, that He good/kind upon the ungrateful and wicked. [Proverbs 25:22/Romans 12:20]

Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [Prove 25:22]

Proverbs 25:22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and YHWH shall reward thee. [Romans 12:20]

BrotherAtArms · Aug 7, 2008

Radiata said:
So what we do now detirmines our salvation? God help us, the world is doomed!

.... how in the world did you draw that conclusion?

Here are a few verses off the top of my head:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:43 "Ye hear that was declared 'Thou shalt be loving thy neighbour, and shall be hating thy enemy'
44 I am saying yet unto ye, be loving thine enemies, be blessing them that are cursing thee, be doing good to them that are hating thee, and be praying over those chasing/persecuting thee.

Luke 6:35 Morely be loving thine enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, nothing expecting, and shall be the wages of ye much, and ye shall be sons of Most-High, that He good/kind upon the ungrateful and wicked. [Proverbs 25:22/Romans 12:20]

Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [Prove 25:22]

Proverbs 25:22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and YHWH shall reward thee. [Romans 12:20]

Yeah I know those verses, but I've specifically read a verse that says distinctly that it's loving others that brings them to know Christ. I'm going to look for it today, but that's the literal wording of the verse is what I'm talking about.

BrotherAtArms · Aug 7, 2008

OK, I'm thinking this is the verse.
Because one time I did this study, and I never really found a verse that said, "Show them how prophecy came to pass and they'll be saved."
But I did find in 1 Peter 4:8 that it says, "Above all things have intense and unfailing love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins [forgives and disregards the offenses of others].

I also actually found a couple of articles showing how to love others in context with this verse and 1 John 4:8 (which ironically is also about love).

http://richvermillion.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/how-does-love-cover-sins-part-1/

http://richvermillion.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/how-does-love-cover-sins-part-2/

BrotherAtArms · Aug 7, 2008

Radiata said:
So what we do now detirmines our salvation? God help us, the world is doomed!

I think I understand where you're confused.
I meant in witnessing. It's by God's grace, but when when we speak to people about our faith, we show them love, that Jesus loves them and has a plan for their life, not, "Hey you should believe in God because all the prophesies in the Bible are coming to pass."

That was my point.

How I lost my Faith; through study of Early Christian History...

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