How I know there is no God

DoubtingThomas29 · Oct 1, 2007

Dear Cruijur and Loves Enduring Promise,

In the immortal words of the matrix, "take the blue pill." Wake up, look around.

Something doesn't make sense here, we've got a generational war going right now. That Jihad might not end in our life time.

Between the Jihad and Jerry Sinfield being paid 250 millon dollars by NBC, something is not right here. Would an all loving God allow this to happen? Among the other evil things we have talked about that do happen.

You got your whole life ahead of you, your not going to die for a long time, why not try and figure this out. Do the philosophy and find the answer that is most right.

If we can't prove God exists that means we can't prove those Gospels are factual. So the case for atheism is really strong in that sense.

Just think about it, play a little bit, you'd be surprised at what you'll learn.

ArchaicTruth · Oct 1, 2007

You know doubting thomas, you're like an atheist version of Emmy "your sister in Christ". That just kinda struck me now, thought I'd throw that out there.

And I just thought I'd point out, you should really focus on if there is a God first, not his nature. He could be an evil bastard for all we know.

DailyBlessings · Oct 2, 2007

ArchaicTruth said:
You know doubting thomas, you're like an atheist version of Emmy "your sister in Christ". That just kinda struck me now, thought I'd throw that out there.

And I just thought I'd point out, you should really focus on if there is a God first, not his nature. He could be an evil bastard for all we know.

More like an agnostic Emmy with a flair for the scientific. But hey, I like my sister Emmy! She's been on CF as long as I can remember, and shown a consistent and loving portrait of the gospel all the while.

phsyxx · Oct 2, 2007

DailyBlessings said:
More like an agnostic Emmy with a flair for the scientific. But hey, I like my sister Emmy! She's been on CF as long as I can remember, and shown a consistent and loving portrait of the gospel all the while.

Yeah, I second that.
I may not necessarily agree with Emmy on certain points - but you have to have respect for her!

LovesEnduringPromise · Oct 2, 2007

DoubtingThomas29 said:
Dear Cruijur and Loves Enduring Promise,

In the immortal words of the matrix, "take the blue pill." Wake up, look around.

Something doesn't make sense here, we've got a generational war going right now. That Jihad might not end in our life time.

Between the Jihad and Jerry Sinfield being paid 250 millon dollars by NBC, something is not right here. Would an all loving God allow this to happen? Among the other evil things we have talked about that do happen.

You got your whole life ahead of you, your not going to die for a long time, why not try and figure this out. Do the philosophy and find the answer that is most right.

If we can't prove God exists that means we can't prove those Gospels are factual. So the case for atheism is really strong in that sense.

Just think about it, play a little bit, you'd be surprised at what you'll learn.

According to God's will the end of the world has to come.

LovesEnduringPromise · Oct 2, 2007

How can you say we have our whole lives ahead of us? We are not guareented one more day. You or I could go out today and get in a car wreck and die. God has our lives in his hands.....not ourselves...we are human, weak, and made of flesh....the flesh is easily broken.

Wiccan_Child · Oct 2, 2007

LovesEnduringPromise said:
How can you say we have our whole lives ahead of us? We are not guareented one more day. You or I could go out today and get in a car wreck and die.

And in which case, our lives would end. We have our entire lives ahead of us, but that does not necessarily mean we have a long time to live.
Tell me, is a Christian's life expectancy higher than an Atheist's? If not, then what's your point?

LovesEnduringPromise said:
God has our lives in his hands.....not ourselves...we are human, weak, and made of flesh....the flesh is easily broken.

You make it sound like a good BDSM movie.

LovesEnduringPromise · Oct 2, 2007

Mmmm its not about whose life expectancy is longer than whose. God will take you when he decides. For he knows the best for each and every one of us. He knows the plans he has for you and I.You cannot rely on yourself to know that you have your whole life ahead of you. YOU dont know what age you will die, so how can you say you have your whole life ahead. It could easily be taken right now. You dont know.

Wiccan_Child · Oct 2, 2007

LovesEnduringPromise said:
Mmmm its not about whose life expectancy is longer than whose.

If life expectancy is not affected by one's religion (or lack thereof), then what is your point?

LovesEnduringPromise said:
God will take you when he decides.

How comforting.

LovesEnduringPromise said:
For he knows the best for each and every one of us. He knows the plans he has for you and I.

So when a child dies of agonising starvation and disease in Africa, that's God's direct action? Or are only 'nice' deaths the work of God?

LovesEnduringPromise said:
You cannot rely on yourself to know that you have your whole life ahead of you.

What? Of course I do: my life is defined by the amount of time I am alive for. I plan to live to a ripe old age, but the future is uncertain. Nevertheless, I will live my whole life: if I die tomorrow, then I will have simply finished my life. If, as you say, the universe is deterministic, then the length of my life is predetermined (and, according to you, known by an omniscience you call god).

LovesEnduringPromise said:
YOU dont know what age you will die, so how can you say you have your whole life ahead. It could easily be taken right now. You dont know.

Indeed. It could also keep on ticking. Neither you nor I know how long I will live. What is your point?

DoubtingThomas29 · Oct 2, 2007

Dear Wiccan,

I'll try to help out Loves Enduring Promise.

I sent her a message and I said we got our whole lives to figure out if there is a God or if there is not a God. The average american lives to 76 now, that is even considering those who die young, so if you have made it twenty five, your probability of Death is extremly low, it is as low as it can go. Provided your basically immune to the possibility of suicide and perhaps good genes to fight off cancer.

So all I am saying is, why not give your beliefes a real good second look. See if they stand up to scruitiny.

To everyone else, thank you for comparing me to Emmy I don't even know who she is, but I am sure she is a nice person.

To Loves Enduring Promise, try thinking about the questions wiccan asked on page twenty.

He hit the nail on the head with those questions, he is asking how do you know that there is a God. What makes you so sure.

Did God beam this information into your head, or do you have proof?

We only know what can be proven to be true, and we cannot prove God exists, therefore we do not know if God exists, this has profound implications, on if the gospels really happened.

Think about it, it is really fun to do. You can't change anything, and the sun still rises in the East and sets in the west, and all we do is wonder how that happens, and is a God really neccessairy to make that possible?

What are your thoughts anything you ever wonder about when it comes to this stuff?

DailyBlessings · Oct 2, 2007

DoubtingThomas29 said:
We only know what can be proven to be true, and we cannot prove God exists, therefore we do not know if God exists, this has profound implications, on if the gospels really happened.

Proof? Proof does not exist. No, not for anything.

LovesEnduringPromise · Oct 2, 2007

Mmmm no a starving child isnt the result of Gods action. God is merciful and just. There is pain and suffering in this world because of sin, suffering even happens to the ones that dont deserve it because sin is so rampant and it spreads like a cancer

Wiccan_Child · Oct 3, 2007

DoubtingThomas29 said:
So all I am saying is, why not give your beliefes a real good second look. See if they stand up to scruitiny.

Is this to me or Enduring Promise? I often look at my beliefs and presuppositions to the standard with which I look at everyone else's. I can't see any flaws, but I dare say some exist.

DoubtingThomas29 said:
To Loves Enduring Promise, try thinking about the questions wiccan asked on page twenty.

He hit the nail on the head with those questions, he is asking how do you know that there is a God. What makes you so sure.

Did God beam this information into your head, or do you have proof?

I really do look forward to her responses to those questions, though it says something that she has yet to answer them.

DoubtingThomas29 said:
We only know what can be proven to be true,

I disagree, or rather, I consider this to be misleading. There are subjective truths which are cannot be proven, but are nevertheless known to be true (for example, I know I exist, yet I cannot prove it, least of all objectively. In all probability, you exist as well, though I cannot prove you have a mind like me).

But anyway, there are things which are unproven, yet known.

DoubtingThomas29 said:
and we cannot prove God exists, therefore we do not know if God exists, this has profound implications, on if the gospels really happened.

It has implications on what we should believe, sure. But the our knowledge of God is irrespective of the existance of God. Presumably, he exists whether we can prove his existance or not.

NavyGuy7 · Oct 3, 2007

We only know what can be proven to be true, and we cannot prove God exists, therefore we do not know if God exists, this has profound implications, on if the gospels really happened.

We cannot prove God does not exist, therefore we do not know if he does not exist, this has profound implications on the fact that other religions and atheists are wrong if he truly DOES exist.
Wouldn't you say that's the reverse of your argument?
If one cannot disprove a certain thing/theory/entity, then in a scientific viewpoint one must assume that there is a good possibility of said thing/theory/entity existing. One cannot just blind themselves from that glaring possibility; they must either find hard concrete proof of it's non-existence, or in failing to do that, either make a conclusion or find proof of its possible existence.

phsyxx · Oct 3, 2007

NavyGuy7 said:
We cannot prove God does not exist, therefore we do not know if he does not exist, this has profound implications on the fact that other religions and atheists are wrong if he truly DOES exist.
Wouldn't you say that's the reverse of your argument?
If one cannot disprove a certain thing/theory/entity, then in a scientific viewpoint one must assume that there is a good possibility of said thing/theory/entity existing. One cannot just blind themselves from that glaring possibility; they must either find hard concrete proof of it's non-existence, or in failing to do that, either make a conclusion or find proof of its possible existence.
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If one cannot disprove one's guilt of the crime of which they are accused in court - then they shall be hanged!!!
arahahah!

Oh.....and what method of testing did they use for witches in the 17th Century during the witch hunts in America?
That's right "if not a witch - die, if a witch - lives, then we get to kill them."

See. I don't exactly see that as a very fair nor correct system.
To me, navyguy7, you are using a very mild and diluted version of this view of the world - in which you can defend your own position by shifting the burden of proof and using a biased system to come to your conclusions.

LovesEnduringPromise · Oct 3, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
Is it not possible that a sufficiently powerful entity has not just tricked you into thinking that the Judaeo-Christian God exists?

Faith is trusting the uncertain. How can you know by faith?

Objectively? Or just beamed the info into your head?

Mmm no entity has brainwashed me into believing in a God. It is my personal choice just like its your choice to believe the way you do. In my choice I find faith, hope, love, understanding, and salvation.
Faith is trusting in God when everyone else around me dogs him. Faith is standing up for what I believe it, its showing how strong willed I am and that I will not step down for God. I will proclaim his name unto the end of my life.

God has shown me he exsists through his word, through other people, his creation, he has shown me by his voice and the wisdom and compassion he has given me for others, he has revealed things to me in which the hardened of heart couldnt understand or will never see because even though they have visual sight, they do not have spiritual sight, they are blind to the truth.

DailyBlessings · Oct 3, 2007

phsyxx, burden of proof lies with whoever is making a claim against prima facie. There is no prima facie viewpoint in the case of God. Both the person claiming that God does not exist, and the person claiming that God does exist, potentially might carry the evidentiary burden of proof, or disproof as the case may be. I note that during the course of a trial, or debate as the case may be, evidentiary burden of proof is apt to shift back and forth- it is not a universal state lasting from the beginning of the trial, as there is in the case of a persuasive burden of proof (which is clearly not what NavyGuy and Thomas are discussing, though you seem to be trying to throw that concept in with your odd interjection of 16th century trials). Since neither claim has yet been supplemented by convincing evidence, then NavyGuy is correct in stating that both of your claims must rationally be considered plausible.

Wiccan_Child · Oct 3, 2007

LovesEnduringPromise said:
Mmm no entity has brainwashed me into believing in a God.

I never said that. I was asking whether the 'knowledge' God gave you is objectively determinable, or whether the 'knowledge' was beamed straight into your head.

LovesEnduringPromise said:
It is my personal choice just like its your choice to believe the way you do.

Agreed.

LovesEnduringPromise said:
In my choice I find faith, hope, love, understanding, and salvation.

Heartwarming. Doesn't say anything about the validity of the belief statement itself, but it's heartwarming nevertheless.

LovesEnduringPromise said:
Faith is trusting in God when everyone else around me dogs him.

To be fair, you kinda set yourself up.

LovesEnduringPromise said:
Faith is standing up for what I believe it,

Admirable. Of course, you have yet to justify your beliefs beyond "I just know".

LovesEnduringPromise said:
God has shown me he exsists through his word, through other people, his creation, he has shown me by his voice and the wisdom and compassion he has given me for others, he has revealed things to me in which the hardened of heart couldnt understand or will never see because even though they have visual sight, they do not have spiritual sight, they are blind to the truth.

Pray tell, how do you know that you are not being decieved?

Wiccan_Child · Oct 3, 2007

DailyBlessings said:
Both the person claiming that God does not exist, and the person claiming that God does exist, potentially might carry the evidentiary burden of proof, or disproof as the case may be.

Agreed. However, noone has made the claim that God does not exist. We have challanged the claim that God does exist, but no false dichotomy has been set up.

DailyBlessings said:
I note that during the course of a trial, or debate as the case may be, evidentiary burden of proof is apt to shift back and forth- it is not a universal state lasting from the beginning of the trial, as there is in the case of a persuasive burden of proof (which is clearly not what NavyGuy and Thomas are discussing, though you seem to be trying to throw that concept in with your odd interjection of 16th century trials).

I disagree. The onus is only and always placed on those making a claim. There is no onus on those who challange that claim.

That said, the onus is placed on those who say "There is no God" as a challange to "There is a God": it is a claim unto itself.

DailyBlessings said:
Since neither claim has yet been supplemented by convincing evidence, then NavyGuy is correct in stating that both of your claims must rationally be considered plausible.

I don't think anyone has claimed that God does not exist. So while the onus is anyone making such a claim, it is currently only on the theists.

LovesEnduringPromise · Oct 3, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
I never said that. I was asking whether the 'knowledge' God gave you is objectively determinable, or whether the 'knowledge' was beamed straight into your head.

Agreed.

Heartwarming. Doesn't say anything about the validity of the belief statement itself, but it's heartwarming nevertheless.

To be fair, you kinda set yourself up.

Admirable. Of course, you have yet to justify your beliefs beyond "I just know".

Pray tell, how do you know that you are not being decieved?

How am I being deceived? I am living for God...but if you think there is no God then me living the way I am will just be what it was and I was living some strict way and either of us wont have any consequences when we die. But there is a GOD so I am living the way he wants me to, and I know I am going to heaven. I know its better to believe than to not. Why risk dying and finding out then, when you can believe now and seek him now and have salavtion through Jesus, EVEN if you dont think he exsists..but you find out in death wont you regret the choice you made in life to not believe? But IF there isnt a God....then okay..we are both fine. But that isnt resonable...but there is a right and wrong way to do things in life by law...so there must be after death...there must be something more...there must be a place for me after death in living for my God. It cant just be nothing....we are not meant to live and just die...and thats it. Whats the point of even living then...whats the point of this universe forming then...I mean its ridiculous...its ridiculous to think its an accident....if Im just an accident then why should I care what happens to any other accident of a person......if you dont believe in God then how in the world can you genuinely care for another..if there is no reason for it.....when we are born it is put in us to care and love one another because those are the teachings and desires God put in our hearts...how in the world could a combulsion in space put love and compassion in a human heart.....????

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