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Cygnus --- I like you. You are intelligent, caring, and kind in your posts. There is no doubt your heart seeks after God.ben you have gone into waffle mode .......... but then again .........
''who cares''
Ben johnson said:Cygnus --- I like you. You are intelligent, caring, and kind in your posts. There is no doubt your heart seeks after God.
You should care --- for "predestination" cannot stand under these verses. It's not that you are following "false-doctrine that will condemn you"; but that you do not have the full essence of what Jesus taught.
And you take Philip1:29 to mean "It has been few-selectively-monergistically-chosen to believe and suffer". But the "granted", includes Jn6:40: "His will is that all who see Jesus and believe may have eternal life."we believe through Grace .
The idea of "chosen in Him before the world began" (Eph1:4), harmonizes with Jesus being predestined, and whosoever believes becomes one of the chosen-for-salvation (through Jesus' predestined-sacrifice). This is the only meaning I can see in Matt22:2-14; all were called, but only those who received, became the chosen. "Many are called but few are chosen" --- in context, reflects NOTHING of determination by the King, but EVERYTHING of determination by the invitees.and then you will realize that God has chosen you before the world began...
Then why does it say "If you SEEK Me, you will FIND Me, when you search with all your heart"?you were not seeking Him , you were seeking self...
But you really mean, "By grace that you were saved, through grace" --- don't you?and it was By Grace that you were saved , through faith .
I was "dead in my trespasses", and He "made me alive" (Eph2:5); when I was "smitten in conscience" (Acts2:37), when my "faith came from hearing the Gospel" (Rm10:17); my faith also came from "reading the Scriptures" (2Pet3:15). So "while I was dead in my sins, He made me alive, THROUGH MY FAITH!" (Eph2:5-8)just try and carefully examine your background , see the guiding hand of God ,,, see God at work even when you were far away , lost , and blind , and dead in trespasses and sins ............
Responsible, conveys "causal". You do not believe that responsibility is causal to salvation; you believe vice-versa.ben why waste your time quoting passages that are to do with human responsibility ?
They are NOT opposed to the Doctrine Of Divine Sovereignty one jot!
Nope. You believe that Divine Election consequents in faith; thus the "responsibility" is something else that "flows invariably/irresistibly from His monergistic regeneration".I have said before , and I say it again , I believe in human reponsibility more than you do!
Paul writes: "We are under obligation not to walk after the flesh --- if you do, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live." You see "obligation" as something God instills, don't you? I see it as "responsibility".You merely believe that man is responsible for that which he is capable of .......... that is such a man centered and Unbiblical assumption.
Ben johnson said:Responsible, conveys "causal". You do not believe that responsibility is causal to salvation; you believe vice-versa.
Nope. You believe that Divine Election consequents in faith; thus the "responsibility" is something else that "flows invariably/irresistibly from His monergistic regeneration".
Paul writes: "We are under obligation not to walk after the flesh --- if you do, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live." You see "obligation" as something God instills, don't you? I see it as "responsibility".
God is sovereign; and we are responsible.
The "doctrine of Divine Sovereignty", is really that God sovereignly saves all who WILL believe.
Grace is availed to all; belief is charged to the individual.
Every person is drawn to Him; each chooses to believe, or to continue in sin.
Salvation is "fellowship of love"; love cannot instill reciprocal regard in others; love can only ASK to be returned.
Belief causes salvation; not vice-versa.
Many verses charge US with diligenct to abide in Christ (and in salvation).
We are responsible. From "beginning faith to ending faith"...
"Chosen from the beginning ...through faith..." 2Thess2:13God is responsible for saving me ... I didn't elect myself .... I was chosen before I was born...
When we were "lost and dead in sins", we BELIEVED. And THEN He "made us alive". Through our faith...Christ died for us (the Church) when we were in Adam , when we were lost and dead in trespasses and sins.
Technically, yes. "If we CONFESS our sins (repent), He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:9 So --- it is repentance and confessing our sins that causes God to forgive us. God commands ALL to repent (Acts17:30); Jesus admonishes the Jews TO repent (Lk13:3).Did you arrange God to take away your sins ?
That's true --- IF you can find a verse to support that! I've found no such verse, Cygnus; I find:No , it was done without your knowledge or consent!
Really? "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9As for faith , Unbelief you are responsible for , not faith!
Why are we "accountable for sin" (which is the same as "unbelief"), if we are not accountable for "belief"?Just as you are accountable for your sin , not your good works !
Amen; quite correct. And yet --- He does those good deeds through us, because He is IN us (and we are IN CHRIST). Are we not to "examine ourselves to SEE if we are IN CHRIST"? 2Cor13:5)the difference is so obvious it is a wonder it even needs spelling out ,,,,,, it is not you per se , that does good deeds , but Christ in you that does them ,
Faith is God's choice, and His responsibility, not ours. How do you support that with Scripture? I cited 4 verses that plainly say "your faith" and "salvation"; I cited 8 verses that charge individuals with their own faith (or praising those who PERSEVERED in faith in SPITE of persecution/affliction). How does all of that, mesh with your belief?consider the crowns given to the overcomers at Glory , they are cast at the feet of Jesus , why ?
Because all men then recognise TRUE responsibility and accountability for salvation and good works is a gift , it is by Grace , it is by Christ in us that we overcome , without Him we can do .... NOTHING!
yes that includes faith!
Salvation is "by grace through faith"; yet your view makes it "by grace through grace". Show me how the idea of "grace is God's unilateral-monergistic instillment in us".salvation is all of Grace , even our good works are predestined !
Ben johnson said:"Chosen from the beginning ...through faith..." 2Thess2:13 When we were "lost and dead in sins", we BELIEVED. And THEN He "made us alive". Through our faith...
Technically, yes. "If we CONFESS our sins (repent), He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:9 So --- it is repentance and confessing our sins that causes God to forgive us. God commands ALL to repent (Acts17:30); Jesus admonishes the Jews TO repent (Lk13:3).
Repentance/confession is what "arranges" for God to forgive sins...
That's true --- IF you can find a verse to support that! I've found no such verse, Cygnus; I find:
"If you confess your sins He forgives..." 1Jn1:9
"If we walk in the Light, ...the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:7
"The Lamb of God that Takest Away the sins of the World" ......... when did Jesus take away sin ? On the cross , you just hadn't recieved it yet .Show me a verse, any verse, that states "God took away (forgave) our sins BEFORE we believed and repented".
Which of these reflect "monergistically-instilled-faith"? Why would Paul "speak proudly of their perseverance and faith in the midst of their persecutions and afflictions", if faith was something unilaterally imparted by God?
Why are we "accountable for sin" (which is the same as "unbelief"), if we are not accountable for "belief"?
assuredly .......Amen; quite correct. And yet --- He does those good deeds through us, because He is IN us (and we are IN CHRIST). Are we not to "examine ourselves to SEE if we are IN CHRIST"? 2Cor13:5)
Once a person has faith they can use it or neglect it , like any GIFT , so accountability is put forth , but notice it is accountability in the negative , paradoxical though it may sound , if we are Lost we have only ourselves to blame , if we are saved we have ONLY Christ to Praise!Faith is God's choice, and His responsibility, not ours. How do you support that with Scripture? I cited 4 verses that plainly say "your faith" and "salvation"; I cited 8 verses that charge individuals with their own faith (or praising those who PERSEVERED in faith in SPITE of persecution/affliction). How does all of that, mesh with your belief?
Salvation is "by grace through faith"; yet your view makes it "by grace through grace". Show me how the idea of "grace is God's unilateral-monergistic instillment in us".
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