How Homophobic Are You?

[Andreusz]

Hi BrightMorningStar, I'd really be interested to hear what you have to say in reply to my previous post (#144).

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,
Well this is a Christian forum and consequently the scriptures are going to be cited as the benchmark for determining what is God’s purpose and what is right and wrong. As all the scriptural evidence given so far cited to show gay and same sex unions are excluded and condemn by what the scriptures say, its normal and not ridiculous. The idea that gay marriages exist, is a worldly human idea which is both unbiblical and ungodly.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Andreusz,
Regarding your post #144

And expand on it: Can you give me one reason, NOT based on the Bible, for equating gay adult consensual sex with murder, theft or adultery?

Yes I can. The penis is designed for the vagina, its purpose to deliver sperm to unite with the egg. The penis could be used for pleasure and inserted into any orifice, but biologically that’s not necessary or appropriate. The penis and the vagina are the reproductive organs and define the sex of the species, either male or female. Therefore sexual activity between two people of the same sex is error and neither going to reproduce life nor fulfilling the biological function of the reproductive organs. Murder is destroying life just as same sex activity is failing to produce life.
Now you may disagree, but why would I go on such as basis anyway, as a Christian I believe God knows whats right and wrong and so whats the point of asking me for examples other than the Bible?

 

[KCKID]

To Chalice_Thunder,
Sorry bud, in your thinking maybe but not in God’s eyes, as the scriptures show. In fact when we go to God's counter we can declare there is no gay marriage because we can see there isnt from God's word. So infact its you doing what you accuse others of. We are going to the fish counter and declaring the salmon we see, you are saying it isnt salmon.

I can't believe this. Just because 'God's word' says nothing about same-sex marriage does not mean that it does not or cannot exist. 'God's word' (written by the likes of you and me, brightmorningstar) is silent on many items and issues but we don't normally get hung up on their absence. I can't find the word 'cat' in my Bible but I have one. He's even got a name. I call him Scamp.

Obviously, brightmorningstar, you're referring to 'the ideal' relationship that is basically set up in the scriptures for procreation to occur. Males and females were made to 'begat'. Such relationships were predominantly male dominated where the female became the property of the husband. I believe that it was also quite alright for the husband to beat the wife if she got out of line. But you know that already. Culture and tradition plays a major role in bible history and teaching. We cannot, in all seriousness, apply much of it to today even though you seem to want to do so for some reason. Perhaps that kind of a male/female marriage appeals to you since it IS biblical.

Surprise, surprise ...males/males, females/females fall in love these days and they desire to commit themselves to one another. What's to get so hung up about? There is no immoral and depraved street behavior going on in the lives of these people as your buddy, Polycarp_fan, likes to state as a fact. That the Bible doesn't approve OR disapprove of such relationships makes it basically a non-issue. Unless you have a special hotline to God, brightmorningstar, and can speak for Him then how do you know that He frowns on 'gay' marriage just because 'His word' doesn't mention it?

You keep asking for a scripture where God approves of same-sex marriage. Why don't YOU provide such a scripture that forbids same-sex marriage?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,

I can't believe this. Just because 'God's word' says nothing about same-sex marriage does not mean that it does not or cannot exist.

Its because God’s word says that marriage is man and woman and same sex unions are error, that same sex marriages don’t exist. What you are doing is looking for something God’s word tells you ant exist, not finding it and then thinking its ok.
So the Bible is not silent on the concept of same-sex marriage, its tells us the concept of same-sex marriage is nonsense.

Obviously, brightmorningstar, you're referring to 'the ideal' relationship that is basically set up in the scriptures for procreation to occur. Males and females were made to 'begat'.

No I am referring you to the text which says God ‘it was for this reason’ that’s a man shall be united with his wife. Have you not read, in the beginning He made them male and female, it was for this reason a man shall be united with his wife.

Culture and tradition plays a major role in bible history and teaching.

Not where culture and tradition caused the Son of God to correct culture and tradition by reminding them that in the beginning God created them male and female it was for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united ith his wife. What was the reson God created male and female KCKID?

Surprise, surprise ...males/males, females/females fall in love these days and they desire to commit themselves to one another. What's to get so hung up about?

I would say fall in love with Jesus and follow His teaching John 14-15.

That the Bible doesn't approve OR disapprove of such relationships makes it basically a non-issue.

The Bible doesn’t approve of homosexual relationships and it is crucial as Jesus NT teaching says homosexual offenders shall not enter the Kingdom.

Unless you have a special hotline to God, brightmorningstar, and can speak for Him then how do you know that He frowns on 'gay' marriage just because 'His word' doesn't mention it?

I do have His words from His Son KCKID, recorded in the Bible for all to see, and I can see you don’t believe them or even acknowledge them. You imply that because I do I have a hot line to God, you are right I do, through faith in Jesus Christ and by living out that faith by recognising and seeking to obey what He teaches.

You keep asking for a scripture where God approves of same-sex marriage. Why don't YOU provide such a scripture that forbids same-sex marriage?

I have provided several, you provide some that countenance two God making man and man for this reason a man shall be united with his husband, then I will tell you whether you have provided any scripture or not.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

To EnemyPartyII

Originally Posted by brightmorningstar
The test of who is following Christ is what Christ’s teaching is. I think I have laid out the case with adequate and ample scriptural citations and references.
Christ also tells us this, not instead.

and thieving and murder and paedophilia? I don’t think so. Christ also taught repent from sin and there is a difference between loving people and accepting what they do. So no, we can see from scripture that Christ accepts people even if they have same sex attractions but doesn’t accept committed homosexual relationships.

Um, thieving, murder and paedophilia hurt others, so that contradicts Christ's "love one another" commandment.

Mutually consentual homosexual relationships do not hurt others, thus they are not comparable to thieving, murder or paedophilia.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To EnemyPartyII

Um, thieving, murder and paedophilia hurt others, so that contradicts Christ's "love one another" commandment.

Wrong, as already shown, All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in us, whom we have received from God? We are not our own; we were bought at a price. Therefore we should honour God with our body.

Mutually consentual homosexual relationships do not hurt others, thus they are not comparable to thieving, murder or paedophilia

Wrong, homosexual acts dishonour the body.
We should not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Ref 1 Corinthians 6.


NB. Your original argument was that Christ accepts everyone unconditionally, you now move on to justify acts or not on a new basis, whether they hurt. Well that’s not unconditional then is it. Not only are both your claims scripturally wrong, but you have contradicted your first claim with your second.

 

[Andreusz]

To Andreusz,
Regarding your post #144
Yes I can. The penis is designed for the vagina, its purpose to deliver sperm to unite with the egg. The penis could be used for pleasure and inserted into any orifice, but biologically that’s not necessary or appropriate. The penis and the vagina are the reproductive organs and define the sex of the species, either male or female. Therefore sexual activity between two people of the same sex is error and neither going to reproduce life nor fulfilling the biological function of the reproductive organs.

As is well known, homosexual activity has been observed in about 1500 animal species. This suggests to me that sexual organs are 'designed' for more than just reproduction.
(By the way, I don't believe that anything in nature was 'designed', except as a rather poor metaphor.)
Of course, heterosexual humans ALWAYS use their sexual organs for the purpose of engendering children ONLY. That is why there are no abortion clinics. And why all straight couples have dozens of children.

Murder is destroying life just as same sex activity is failing to produce life.

Even if you are a remarkable sexual athlete, you probably spend about 22 hours a day in activities such as making coffee, driving your car, helping your kids with their homework, walking the dog, doing your work, sleeping, and otherwise not producing life. You murderer!

Now you may disagree, but why would I go on such as basis anyway, as a Christian I believe God knows whats right and wrong and so whats the point of asking me for examples other than the Bible?

What I am trying to understand is WHY God regards homosexual activity as wrong, when (unlike murder, theft and adultery) it causes no harm to anyone. (I trust I've made it clear that I'm referring to homosexual activity between consenting adults.)

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Precisely. This persistent bleating of 'there is no such thing as same-sex marriage' is absolutely ridiculous. Just as there is such a thing as salmon there is also such a thing as same-sex marriage. I've read about it! Even Star Trek's 'Sulu' got hitched to his life-long 'gay' partner not too long ago. Live long and prosper, Sulu!

Salmon may not be to everyone's taste (too much lead content or something) but it doesn't make it not so.
​

Then let's go with, "there are no such things as Sodom and Gomorrah."

To gays.

There is no such thing as same-gender marriage.

To Christians.

There is no such thing as same-gender marriage.

Anywhere in the Bible.

Neologism or no neologism.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

As is well known, homosexual activity has been observed in about 1500 animal species. This suggests to me that sexual organs are 'designed' for more than just reproduction.
(By the way, I don't believe that anything in nature was 'designed', except as a rather poor metaphor.)
Of course, heterosexual humans ALWAYS use their sexual organs for the purpose of engendering children ONLY. That is why there are no abortion clinics. And why all straight couples have dozens of children.

You prove two things, you are an atheist, as you do not see "design" in "nature," and you are comparing humans to unreasoning beasts. Christians see people as very valuable. Nope three, comparing two wrongs don't make a right.


Evolution is far more harsh on the individual lost to a homosexual sexual attempt than anything a Christian may say.

Even if you are a remarkable sexual athlete, you probably spend about 22 hours a day in activities such as making coffee, driving your car, helping your kids with their homework, walking the dog, doing your work, sleeping, and otherwise not producing life. You murderer!

You can sin in a few short seconds. And as has been proven a sexual sin can cost you your life. The consequences of sin.

What I am trying to understand is WHY God regards homosexual activity as wrong, when (unlike murder, theft and adultery) it causes no harm to anyone. (I trust I've made it clear that I'm referring to homosexual activity between consenting adults.)

Corruption is seen as dangerous in science as well. That is why we can some of our foods.

Do you want to think about that for a few minutes, study the 80's and get back to us? And, if you have "time" which you obviously do, study history from the 60's hippy/free love movement 'til now as well.

 

[brightmorningstar]

It has been observed that animals sometimes kill other animals not for eating but just for instinct and some eat their own kind. If we were to purely accept what aninmals do automatically mean we should I would rather not have canibalism, murder and homsoexual practice. You see many of the statements made which homosexuals find offensive are only a response to show a fault in their arguments of making making blanket generalisations.

 

[catlover]

To Andreusz,
Regarding your post #144
Yes I can. The penis is designed for the vagina, its purpose to deliver sperm to unite with the egg. The penis could be used for pleasure and inserted into any orifice, but biologically that’s not necessary or appropriate. The penis and the vagina are the reproductive organs and define the sex of the species, either male or female. Therefore sexual activity between two people of the same sex is error and neither going to reproduce life nor fulfilling the biological function of the reproductive organs. Murder is destroying life just as same sex activity is failing to produce life.
Now you may disagree, but why would I go on such as basis anyway, as a Christian I believe God knows whats right and wrong and so whats the point of asking me for examples other than the Bible?

So if somene has a tubal or vasectomy there is going against God's plan etc?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It has been observed that animals sometimes kill other animals not for eating but just for instinct and some eat their own kind. If we were to purely accept what aninmals do automatically mean we should I would rather not have canibalism, murder and homsoexual practice. You see many of the statements made which homosexuals find offensive are only a response to show a fault in their arguments of making making blanket generalisations.

The "animals do it too" isn't an argument for, it's a counterargument against. Specifically, it's a counterargument against the "it's unnatural" claim: as nature shows, it clear isn't. But it must be stressed (since you seemed to have missed this part) that humans do not base their behaviour on animal behaviour. Indeed, do you advocate that we do everything animals don't?

 

[Andreusz]

It has been observed that animals sometimes kill other animals not for eating but just for instinct and some eat their own kind. If we were to purely accept what aninmals do automatically mean we should I would rather not have canibalism, murder and homsoexual practice. You see many of the statements made which homosexuals find offensive are only a response to show a fault in their arguments of making making blanket generalisations.

WiccanChild has anticipated me, but let me expand on what she has said. You (BMS) have claimed that homosexual activity is forbidden because it goes against nature (I am paraphrasing here -- I trust I have understood you correctly). I have pointed out that it does not go against nature, and you seem to have accepted this. The fact that animals practice cannibalism and senseless killing is not relevant. Cannibalism and killing are harmful, but consensual homosexual sex between adults is not. So, my question remains: why does God condemn it?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Andreusz,

So if somene has a tubal or vasectomy there is going against God's plan etc?

I fail to see how. God’s plan was to create man and woman to be united, one can see this is the case from the sexual reproductive organs of man and woman being compatible to function, if the organs are made non-functional then that hasn’t affected what God has created man and woman for. In fact Jesus offers as an alternative to faithful man/woman marriage, eunuchs made that way ie castrated.

WiccanChild has anticipated me, but let me expand on what she has said. You (BMS) have claimed that homosexual activity is forbidden because it goes against nature (I am paraphrasing here -- I trust I have understood you correctly).

no I don’t understand. I have pointed you to the Bible for what the Bible says, it isn’t me who has said this.

I have pointed out that it does not go against nature, and you seem to have accepted this.

It does go against nature the homosexual function is against nature for the very reasons, both biological and Biblical I have just repeated in this post.

The fact that animals practice cannibalism and senseless killing is not relevant.

Yes it is to the blanket assumption that if animals do something it must be natural for humans.

Cannibalism and killing are harmful, but consensual homosexual sex between adults is not.

whether something is harmful is another argument altogether. I would say it is harmful, both from a biological point of view as its not functionally natural and from a Biblical point of view as God didn’t create people for it and it is a potential barrier to the Kingdom, as is all sin.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Precisely. This persistent bleating of 'there is no such thing as same-sex marriage' is absolutely ridiculous. Just as there is such a thing as salmon there is also such a thing as same-sex marriage. I've read about it! Even Star Trek's 'Sulu' got hitched to his life-long 'gay' partner not too long ago. Live long and prosper, Sulu!

Salmon may not be to everyone's taste (too much lead content or something) but it doesn't make it not so.
​

Gay marriage is like Copper River Salmon

 

[Andreusz]

It does go against nature the homosexual function is against nature for the very reasons, both biological and Biblical I have just repeated in this post.

If animals do a thing, it can hardly 'go against nature'. And anything that humans do is natural for humans -- else they wouldn't do it. For example, humans don't lay eggs; they can't breathe underwater without artificial aids. So homosexuality is natural (to the people who experience it and practice it) -- my question is, why is it considered sinful?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Andreusz,

If animals do a thing, it can hardly 'go against nature'.

If its misuse of the sexual reproductive organs, if animals do its also against nature for animals.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

WiccanChild has anticipated me, but let me expand on what she has said. You (BMS) have claimed that homosexual activity is forbidden because it goes against nature (I am paraphrasing here -- I trust I have understood you correctly). I have pointed out that it does not go against nature, and you seem to have accepted this. The fact that animals practice cannibalism and senseless killing is not relevant. Cannibalism and killing are harmful, but consensual homosexual sex between adults is not. So, my question remains: why does God condemn it?

BMS,

May I?

We see throughout the history of mankind, that sexual "tastes" do not stay between "willing participants." In fact insatible sexuality of certain kinds of individuals thrust onto all, is a cliche/fact that has held firm throughout history. This is the case with gay "activism." ALL must submit to gay will.

Fast forward to western world 2008, and you see "homosexuals" demanding to teach "children" all about the in's and out's of gay sex, "and" the people that choose this style of sexual activity. If this were, an issue that stayed within the confines of "personal taste," there would be no issue at all between people that desire a sexual behavior defining them and attached to themselves, and those that disapprove of that and them.

There is ALSO a natural aversion TO homosexuality.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

If animals do a thing, it can hardly 'go against nature'.

Actually, using evolution as a guide. "homosexuality" is literally going against nature. It serves no purpose other than culling the herd of undesirable genes. That is why the aversion to homosexuality is a natural reaction of a healthy individual and not any kind of phobia.

And anything that humans do is natural for humans -- else they wouldn't do it.

That statement defies logic. It also defies laws put into place to protect people from other people that do not choose to do the right thing.

For example, humans don't lay eggs;

Um, sorry to teach you another lesson, but "human women" incubate their eggs inside of them.

they can't breathe underwater without artificial aids.

And we see the consequences of defying natural fact when the tanks run out of air. Sperm and ovum are "designed" only for each other. Two ovums searching for each other defies reason and nature. Sperm in a throat, or rectum, is worthless sex by the very use of nature to decide reality.

So homosexuality is natural (to the people who experience it and practice it) -- my question is, why is it considered sinful?

It is always aberrant behavior. Accoding to the truth we see in the natural world. It is a sin because it is perversion. Not one place in the Biblical witness do we see homosexuality supported or promoted. And again, using nature as a guide, homosexuality is never "promoted." It is just a condition we observe in an animal that will never be able to reproduce. There must be a lesson in that, as nature is a guide to reason and logic.

A gay community of gazelles disappears as quickly as it developes. What we see in humans that engage in homosexuality is a complete defiance of the natural order. Sin is obviously natural as well.