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How good are climate models?

RickG

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I'm interested in finding out what people in the Christian Forums know about climate modeling. What do they represent and how good are they?

What I hope to have in this thread is a genuine discussion about what is good about climate models or what is bad about climate models, by discussing the science rather than rendering opinions without any scientific basis.

ipcc_ar4_model_vs_obs.gif


Let's begin with this model which is from the IPCC AR4. The red line represents GISS temperature anomalies, that is actual observed combined global average of land and sea air temperatures. The many gray lines are the numerous model projections performed by the IPCC AR4. The black line is the average of all those model runs.
 

AV1611VET

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I'm interested in finding out what people in the Christian Forums know about climate modeling. What do they represent and how good are they?
All I know about that, is that scientists don't like to talk about Jesus Christ in their work; then they not only name & blame the weather patterns on Him, but even say He has a feminine counterpart on the other side of the earth.

Of course, should any of us state that God is the Source of a specific storm, as I did, when I made that thread listing all those storms that hit the U.S. when our government was chewing Israel's land up...
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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I'm interested in finding out what people in the Christian Forums know about climate modeling. What do they represent and how good are they?

I think climate modeling is a useful tool and has been shown to coincide quite well with observed data. This allows for rough extrapolation into the future.

However, one major problem with climate modeling is that they depend on lots of variables which are chosen by biased people (everyone has bias and everyone wants more funding by getting conclusive results that support their funding organizations). These variables are "inputs" into the model which a researcher punches in directly. For example, the IPCC report used a 1% increase in CO2 emissions per year as their standard input for CO2 increase. This input was chosen for a variety of reasons but biases, ideology and pride are bound to come into it.

A researcher could tweak his inputs to make them believable but still give the results he wants. Because of this, I am actually happier when I see future climate predictions with large error bars. If I see a researcher saying, "The Earth is going to be exactly 1.5 degrees warmer in the next twenty years" then I am skeptical. There's a lot of error, a lot of unknowns, a lot of variables to deal with. Perhaps trends can be established, but that's as far as I'll go.
 
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RickG

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All I know about that, is that scientists don't like to talk about Jesus Christ in their work; then they not only name & blame the weather patterns on Him, but even say He has a feminine counterpart on the other side of the earth.

Scientists blame weather patterns on Jesus? I don't think so AV. I mean, believe what you want, I just know that to be wrong.
 
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RickG

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I think climate modeling is a useful tool and has been shown to coincide quite well with observed data. This allows for rough extrapolation into the future.

I agree.

However, one major problem with climate modeling is that they depend on lots of variables which are chosen by biased people (everyone has bias and everyone wants more funding by getting conclusive results that support their funding organizations).

Climate modeling does have lots of variables, that is one reason why it is important to understand what variables are used in what models and why those variables are used and not others.

However, I take some issue with the second part of that statement. In essence, you are accusing climate scientists of wrong doing and deliberate misrepresentation. I can give many citations for non climate scientists doing that, but not the actual practicing climate scientists.

These variables are "inputs" into the model which a researcher punches in directly. For example, the IPCC report used a 1% increase in CO2 emissions per year as their standard input for CO2 increase. This input was chosen for a variety of reasons but biases, ideology and pride are bound to come into it.

Can you cite which IPCC report used a 1% standard input, something doesn't sound right there. Direct measurements since 1950 have shown the average annual increase of CO2 to be 2 ppm. And again, you are making unsupported statements about wrong doing. You may believe that but anyone caught doing such a thing in any scientific field would immediately loose favor with the greater scientific community.

A researcher could tweak his inputs to make them believable but still give the results he wants.

No one is more critical toward scientists than scientists themselves. You just can't get away with such foolishness as that. The peer review process is not perfect, but I don't know of a better process.

Because of this, I am actually happier when I see future climate predictions with large error bars.

Error bars are statistically produced. All they do is show uncertainty. Do not think small error bars would be better since they demonstrate greater certainty.

If I see a researcher saying, "The Earth is going to be exactly 1.5 degrees warmer in the next twenty years" then I am skeptical.

You should be, because no sane scientist is going to use the word "exactly", nor does any published peer review climate science say exactly.

There's a lot of error, a lot of unknowns, a lot of variables to deal with. Perhaps trends can be established, but that's as far as I'll go.

Surely you are not suggesting that because there are unknowns that climate scientists don't know anything. Climate is defined as a 30 year trend or greater as opposed to weather which deals with day to day changes. The reason for such a long period for a trend to be valid is eliminate the noise which doesn't affect climate. Such noise includes volcanic eruptions, ENSO, PDO and sun spot cycles to name a few. They are oscillation and affect weather and climate on the short term, not the long term.
 
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RickG

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:thumbsup: -- and La Niña.

ENSO (El Nino/La Nina Southern Oscillation). They are oscillation ocean currents that change every few years or so. El Nino being the warm current and La Nina being the cool current. They are oscillations because they move heat around the planet, they don't add or take away from the overall energy budget of the earth.
 
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AV1611VET

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ENSO (El Nino/La Nina Southern Oscillation). They are oscillation ocean currents that change every few years or so. El Nino being the warm current and La Nina being the cool current. They are oscillations because they move heat around the planet, they don't add or take away from the overall energy budget of the earth.
Okie - doke ... thanks for the 411.

QV my profile please; I've had a little Oceanography in my time -- ;)
 
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RickG

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I am actually happier when I see future climate predictions with large error bars.

SLR_models_obs.gif



An interesting thing about the IPCC, most of their "most likely" case scenarios are coming up short of actual observations. In other words, the IPCC has been a bit too conservative.
 
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