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How Gnostic Are We Becoming?

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JimB

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This thread is inspired by the one on “heresy.” If we can avoid using names and making personal comments to any living individual in or outside of this forum, I would like to hear your views on the following article from my files, providing we can stick to the ideas and not people who hold them:
The term Gnosticism derives from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "knowledge." A person who is "Gnostic" is one who exalts knowledge (today called “revelation”) above any other form of comprehension. Such “revelation knowledge” can become a tool for controlling life, as it did during the first century. As a first century heresy, Gnosticism taught that there is "secret knowledge" or "gnosis" and that these cryptic secrets are obtainable only through an elite group of Gnostic priests/teachers.


That ancient form of Gnosticism has reappeared as a form of Neo-Gnosticism that has crept into the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement over the past century. An elite segment of P/C’s seem to have received "revelation knowledge" apart from, or adjunct to scripture. They are, of course, as were their ancient counterparts, "anointed." and impart these revelations to others who await their next revelation via TV, books, tapes, mass rallies, etc.

For example, the first to advance the doctrine of a “spiritual death of Christ” was Cerinthus, an early Gnostic, who attempted to fuse the Christian doctrine of Christ with more mystical concepts. He taught a distinction between the Man Jesus and the "Christ spirit" which descended upon Him at His baptism and later departed at His crucifixion. This information is well documented in Ireneaus' monumental work, "Against Heresies," in which Cerinthus’ teachings were soundly marked as heterodox. This doctrine is revived within the teaching that Christ died spiritually, gave up His divinity, and was then born again in His resurrection.

Another Neo-Gnostic doctrine that has been revived over the past century is the dualism of man, whose fleshly mind is inherently evil but whose divine spirit is pure (provided it has been properly “gnosticized” by revelation-knowledge imparted through certain teachers). The most common treatment of this says, “Man is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body.” To those effected (some might say “infected”) by this idea, the spiritual man is supposedly a spirit creature that exists in God's Class, a God-man, while the body is seen as merely the tabernacle in which the spirit-man temporarily resides, a philosophy that grew more out of 19th century mind cults (e.g., Christian Science) than from orthodox Christianity. N.T. Wright has refuted this dismissal of the body in his views on resurrection (see here and here).

Another view of this is that man is corrupted by “sense knowledge” and so is completely incapable of understanding spiritual matters. The only liberation from such “sense knowledge” is a renewed mind but only if that renewed mind accepts certain tenets of revelation-knowledge as taught by a particular P/C sub-group of teachers, one of whom has clearly stated, "One almost has to bypass the brain and operate from the inner man, which is our heart or spirit." But, of course, this inner man must accept the views advanced by this teacher to be truly “gnosticized”.

Another teacher has said publicly, "The man with an experience [revelation] is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." Of course, experience would include some sort of epiphany of truth and, therefore, would not be subject to objection/argument (including scripture, I suppose). Ergo, an experience/revelation trumps reason or scripture.
So, from this can you see an encroachment of Neo-Gnosticism, a revival of an old refuted teaching, into some of our modern P/C teachings? I know this sort of thinking has effected me and I am wondering how influenced I have become by these views..

BTW, here’s an interesting Wikipedia article on secular and well as religious Neo-Gnosticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism_in_modern_times

~Jim

Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.
 
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(Oops! Please forgive the misspelling of 'Gnostic' in the title.)

This thread is inspired by the one on “heresy.” If we can avoid using names and making personal comments to any living individual in or outside of this forum, I would like to hear your views on the following article from my files, providing we can stick to the ideas and not people who hold them:
The term Gnosticism derives from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "knowledge." A person who is "Gnostic" is one who exalts knowledge (today called “revelation”) above any other form of comprehension. Such “revelation knowledge” can become a tool for controlling life, as it did during the first century. As a first century heresy, Gnosticism taught that there is "secret knowledge" or "gnosis" and that these cryptic secrets are obtainable only through an elite group of Gnostic priests/teachers.


That ancient form of Gnosticism has reappeared as a form of Neo-Gnosticism that has crept into the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement over the past century. An elite segment of P/C’s seem to have received "revelation knowledge" apart from, or adjunct to scripture. They are, of course, as were their ancient counterparts, "anointed." and impart these revelations to others who await their next revelation via TV, books, tapes, mass rallies, etc.

For example, the first to advance the doctrine of a “spiritual death of Christ” was Cerinthus, an early Gnostic, who attempted to fuse the Christian doctrine of Christ with more mystical concepts. He taught a distinction between the Man Jesus and the "Christ spirit" which descended upon Him at His baptism and later departed at His crucifixion. This information is well documented in Ireneaus' monumental work, "Against Heresies," in which Cerinthus’ teachings were soundly marked as heterodox. This doctrine is revived within the teaching that Christ died spiritually, gave up His divinity, and was then born again in His resurrection.

Another Neo-Gnostic doctrine that has been revived over the past century is the dualism of man, whose fleshly mind is inherently evil but whose divine spirit is pure (provided it has been properly “gnosticized” by revelation-knowledge imparted through certain teachers). The most common treatment of this says, “Man is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body.” To those effected (some might say “infected”) by this idea, the spiritual man is supposedly a spirit creature that exists in God's Class, a God-man, while the body is seen as merely the tabernacle in which the spirit-man temporarily resides, a philosophy that grew more out of 19th century mind cults (e.g., Christian Science) than from orthodox Christianity. N.T. Wright has refuted this dismissal of the body in his views on resurrection (see here and here).

Another view of this is that man is corrupted by “sense knowledge” and so is completely incapable of understanding spiritual matters. The only liberation from such “sense knowledge” is a renewed mind but only if that renewed mind accepts certain tenets of revelation-knowledge as taught by a particular P/C sub-group of teachers, one of whom has clearly stated, "One almost has to bypass the brain and operate from the inner man, which is our heart or spirit." But, of course, this inner man must accept the views advanced by this teacher to be truly “gnosticized”.

Another teacher has said publicly, "The man with an experience [revelation] is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." Of course, experience would include some sort of epiphany of truth and, therefore, would not be subject to objection/argument (including scripture, I suppose). Ergo, an experience/revelation trumps reason or scripture.
So, from this can you see an encroachment of Neo-Gnosticism, a revival of an old refuted teaching, into some of our modern P/C teachings? I know this sort of thinking has effected me and I am wondering how influenced I have become by these views..

BTW, here’s an interesting Wikipedia article on secular and well as religious Neo-Gnosticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism_in_modern_times

~Jim


Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.

I have noticed how in society it all has a tendency to bleed together. There are elements to gnosticism that are true, but that makes it like all other successful lies, a half truth.

I know it helped me to understand that the book of 1st John was written in regards to the teaching of gnosticism. When I first discovered the Nag Hammadi (via internet) severasl years ago, I began reading the books and being sucked into the idea of gnosticism.

To me the basic idea of it is, everything physical is evil and the spirit is good. Total polarization.

I went so far in acceptence until I began realizing that this meant, (in the end) a total abandonment of love. (which 1st John quite plainly points out is not of God) That was when I realized it was false.

There are certain things in gnosticism that are true however, and I think we must be careful when throwing the package out, because part of the package is true.

Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world"
Peter refered to Christians as "strangers / sojourners and pilgrims"
Jesus said "He who loves his life will lose it and he who hates his life will keep it to the life eternal."

I think 1st John is the guide for separating what is true and false concerning gnosticism.

Love is advocated, while the pride of life, lust of the eyes and lust of the flesh are condemned.

Jesus said we are like wheat and that we have had tares sown among us. Part of (I think) the goal of Gnosticism would seek to root out the tares before it is time to do so.

With gnosticism there is the idea of "hey this body is not who I really am" which is true, where it is wrong is when we say "I don't have to worry about what I do in this body because it does not matter"

It does matter.
 
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JimB

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There may be some elements of Gnosticism that are true but the two Gnostic views in the OP were ones that were soundly condemned as heterodox by the Apostolic and early Post-Apostolic church.

~Jim

Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.
 
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There may be some elements of Gnosticism that are true but the two Gnostic views in the OP were ones that were soundly condemned as heterodox by the Apostolic and early Post-Apostolic church.

~Jim


Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.

I am not disputing the OP. I too agree that they are false as well as Gnosticism itself. I am simply saying there are elements of Gnosticism that are true, and to the world I think it is important to explain that, lest someone read some of the Scriptures that I mentioned and beleive that Scripture lends creedence to Gnosticism.
 
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I do agree with the point you are making as well...I don't think people have to get some specific individual to pray for them to get closer to God.

To me some of the stuff I see in the Charismatic movement is no different than the Catholic church selling indulgences 500 years ago.
 
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jeolmstead

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It’s fuuny,


In one thread experience tells us that a doctrine on healing must be wrong, therefore we must change the way we view the scripture. (Because our experience does not support it)


Now, in this thread an experience doesn’t seem to line up with our understanding of the scripture, therefore the one with the experience must be a Gnostic.

So, I guess only our personal experiences are germane, other’s must be discounted. Is this not an elitist attitude its self?


John O.
 
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It’s fuuny,


In one thread experience tells us that a doctrine on healing must be wrong, therefore we must change the way we view the scripture. (Because our experience does not support it)


Now, in this thread an experience doesn’t seem to line up with our understanding of the scripture, therefore the one with the experience must be a Gnostic.

So, I guess only our personal experiences are germane, other’s must be discounted. Is this not an elitist attitude its self?


John O.

I don't think Jim is saying a person is a Gnostic if they claim special knowledge. I think he is showing an example of elitist philosophy.

I know I am all for being prayed for by someone who has a powerful anointing on them, but the second they imply they have some sort of monopoly on the anointing of God, I think they are wrong and I want no part of it.
 
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JimB

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It’s fuuny,


In one thread experience tells us that a doctrine on healing must be wrong, therefore we must change the way we view the scripture. (Because our experience does not support it)


Now, in this thread an experience doesn’t seem to line up with our understanding of the scripture, therefore the one with the experience must be a Gnostic.

So, I guess only our personal experiences are germane, other’s must be discounted. Is this not an elitist attitude its self?


John O.

I think what is being said, John, at least by me, is that signs and wonders (like healing or deliverance) can only be valid when they are experienced as offered. A believer, of course, does not need “signs” (as Jesus plainly taught) to verify truth—signs and wonders are for non-believers. However, if a particular doctrine says that the Bible teaches if I do this (like have faith), then that (like healing) will automatically occur, and I do this and that does not happen, then experience may (not will) teach me that something is wrong with the doctrine. So, yes, experience does count. It is not proof but it may be evidence that the truth of something being taught. Even when John the Baptist doubted who Jesus was, the Lord sent word to Him that the evidence of His claim was in that what He said and did was in the fact that people actually experienced healing and deliverance. It was not just a theory.

When experience (revelation, gnosis) trumps scripture, that is another matter altogether.

~Jim
Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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The best view I have seen on Gnostics about their use of books not canonized is "they will reject orthodox biblical teachings w/o seeking to align them with other biblical scripture in favor of introducing new "doctrines" to support" non-canonized literature.
 
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jeolmstead

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I think what is being said, John, at least by me, is that signs and wonders (like healing or deliverance) can only be valid when they are experienced as offered. A believer, of course, does not need “signs” (as Jesus plainly taught) to verify truth—signs and wonders are for non-believers. However, if a particular doctrine says that the Bible teaches if I do this (like have faith), then that (like healing) will automatically occur, and I do this and that does not happen, then experience may (not will) teach me that something is wrong with the doctrine. So, yes, experience does count. It is not proof but it may be evidence that the truth of something being taught. Even when John the Baptist doubted who Jesus was, the Lord sent word to Him that the evidence of His claim was in that what He said and did was in the fact that people actually experienced healing and deliverance. It was not just a theory.

When experience (revelation, gnosis) trumps scripture, that is another matter altogether.

~Jim

Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.


You speak in tongues, a Baptist will tell you that scripture trumps your experience.

The Baptist plays piano in his church, The Church of Christ guy will say scripture trumps his experience.

Each “knows” on the authority of the word that they are correct.

John O.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Altho I think your talking about heritics and not Gnostics, I would like to point out that the reason behind the "knowing" is from being told what it is from denomational teachings and not investigating it oneself. BUT denominations differ on detail not foundational doctrine. Whereas Gnostics tear down foundations of Christianity.
 
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You speak in tongues, a Baptist will tell you that scripture trumps your experience.

The Baptist plays piano in his church, The Church of Christ guy will say scripture trumps his experience.

Each “knows” on the authority of the word that they are correct.

John O.

Really good point!
 
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Yekcidmij

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(Oops! Please forgive the misspelling of 'Gnostic' in the title.)

This thread is inspired by the one on “heresy.” If we can avoid using names and making personal comments to any living individual in or outside of this forum, I would like to hear your views on the following article from my files, providing we can stick to the ideas and not people who hold them:
The term Gnosticism derives from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "knowledge." A person who is "Gnostic" is one who exalts knowledge (today called “revelation”) above any other form of comprehension. Such “revelation knowledge” can become a tool for controlling life, as it did during the first century. As a first century heresy, Gnosticism taught that there is "secret knowledge" or "gnosis" and that these cryptic secrets are obtainable only through an elite group of Gnostic priests/teachers.


That ancient form of Gnosticism has reappeared as a form of Neo-Gnosticism that has crept into the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement over the past century. An elite segment of P/C’s seem to have received "revelation knowledge" apart from, or adjunct to scripture. They are, of course, as were their ancient counterparts, "anointed." and impart these revelations to others who await their next revelation via TV, books, tapes, mass rallies, etc.

For example, the first to advance the doctrine of a “spiritual death of Christ” was Cerinthus, an early Gnostic, who attempted to fuse the Christian doctrine of Christ with more mystical concepts. He taught a distinction between the Man Jesus and the "Christ spirit" which descended upon Him at His baptism and later departed at His crucifixion. This information is well documented in Ireneaus' monumental work, "Against Heresies," in which Cerinthus’ teachings were soundly marked as heterodox. This doctrine is revived within the teaching that Christ died spiritually, gave up His divinity, and was then born again in His resurrection.

Another Neo-Gnostic doctrine that has been revived over the past century is the dualism of man, whose fleshly mind is inherently evil but whose divine spirit is pure (provided it has been properly “gnosticized” by revelation-knowledge imparted through certain teachers). The most common treatment of this says, “Man is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body.” To those effected (some might say “infected”) by this idea, the spiritual man is supposedly a spirit creature that exists in God's Class, a God-man, while the body is seen as merely the tabernacle in which the spirit-man temporarily resides, a philosophy that grew more out of 19th century mind cults (e.g., Christian Science) than from orthodox Christianity. N.T. Wright has refuted this dismissal of the body in his views on resurrection (see here and here).

Another view of this is that man is corrupted by “sense knowledge” and so is completely incapable of understanding spiritual matters. The only liberation from such “sense knowledge” is a renewed mind but only if that renewed mind accepts certain tenets of revelation-knowledge as taught by a particular P/C sub-group of teachers, one of whom has clearly stated, "One almost has to bypass the brain and operate from the inner man, which is our heart or spirit." But, of course, this inner man must accept the views advanced by this teacher to be truly “gnosticized”.

Another teacher has said publicly, "The man with an experience [revelation] is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." Of course, experience would include some sort of epiphany of truth and, therefore, would not be subject to objection/argument (including scripture, I suppose). Ergo, an experience/revelation trumps reason or scripture.
So, from this can you see an encroachment of Neo-Gnosticism, a revival of an old refuted teaching, into some of our modern P/C teachings? I know this sort of thinking has effected me and I am wondering how influenced I have become by these views..

BTW, here’s an interesting Wikipedia article on secular and well as religious Neo-Gnosticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism_in_modern_times

~Jim


Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.



An element of Gnosticism that I see in the church is this idea that a disembodied existence in heaven is our ultimate hope. No, no, no - our great hope is resurrection on this earth, a renewed and restored earth and a physical existence on it in resurrected bodies, the same ones we have now with improvements made.

Another creeping and small element of Gnosticism I see, in America in particular, is a Rapture theology. The world is evil and God's going to zoom us out of here while the world destroys itself. I smell large wiffs of Gnosticism in there.

I also recommend those books by NT Wright.
 
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Yekcidmij

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(Oops! Please forgive the misspelling of 'Gnostic' in the title.)

This thread is inspired by the one on “heresy.” If we can avoid using names and making personal comments to any living individual in or outside of this forum, I would like to hear your views on the following article from my files, providing we can stick to the ideas and not people who hold them:
The term Gnosticism derives from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "knowledge." A person who is "Gnostic" is one who exalts knowledge (today called “revelation”) above any other form of comprehension. Such “revelation knowledge” can become a tool for controlling life, as it did during the first century. As a first century heresy, Gnosticism taught that there is "secret knowledge" or "gnosis" and that these cryptic secrets are obtainable only through an elite group of Gnostic priests/teachers.


That ancient form of Gnosticism has reappeared as a form of Neo-Gnosticism that has crept into the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement over the past century. An elite segment of P/C’s seem to have received "revelation knowledge" apart from, or adjunct to scripture. They are, of course, as were their ancient counterparts, "anointed." and impart these revelations to others who await their next revelation via TV, books, tapes, mass rallies, etc.

For example, the first to advance the doctrine of a “spiritual death of Christ” was Cerinthus, an early Gnostic, who attempted to fuse the Christian doctrine of Christ with more mystical concepts. He taught a distinction between the Man Jesus and the "Christ spirit" which descended upon Him at His baptism and later departed at His crucifixion. This information is well documented in Ireneaus' monumental work, "Against Heresies," in which Cerinthus’ teachings were soundly marked as heterodox. This doctrine is revived within the teaching that Christ died spiritually, gave up His divinity, and was then born again in His resurrection.

Another Neo-Gnostic doctrine that has been revived over the past century is the dualism of man, whose fleshly mind is inherently evil but whose divine spirit is pure (provided it has been properly “gnosticized” by revelation-knowledge imparted through certain teachers). The most common treatment of this says, “Man is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body.” To those effected (some might say “infected”) by this idea, the spiritual man is supposedly a spirit creature that exists in God's Class, a God-man, while the body is seen as merely the tabernacle in which the spirit-man temporarily resides, a philosophy that grew more out of 19th century mind cults (e.g., Christian Science) than from orthodox Christianity. N.T. Wright has refuted this dismissal of the body in his views on resurrection (see here and here).

Another view of this is that man is corrupted by “sense knowledge” and so is completely incapable of understanding spiritual matters. The only liberation from such “sense knowledge” is a renewed mind but only if that renewed mind accepts certain tenets of revelation-knowledge as taught by a particular P/C sub-group of teachers, one of whom has clearly stated, "One almost has to bypass the brain and operate from the inner man, which is our heart or spirit." But, of course, this inner man must accept the views advanced by this teacher to be truly “gnosticized”.

Another teacher has said publicly, "The man with an experience [revelation] is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." Of course, experience would include some sort of epiphany of truth and, therefore, would not be subject to objection/argument (including scripture, I suppose). Ergo, an experience/revelation trumps reason or scripture.
So, from this can you see an encroachment of Neo-Gnosticism, a revival of an old refuted teaching, into some of our modern P/C teachings? I know this sort of thinking has effected me and I am wondering how influenced I have become by these views..

BTW, here’s an interesting Wikipedia article on secular and well as religious Neo-Gnosticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism_in_modern_times

~Jim


Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.
An element of Gnosticism that I see in the church is this idea that a disembodied existence in heaven is our ultimate hope. No, no, no - our great hope is resurrection on this earth, a renewed and restored earth and a physical existence on it in resurrected bodies, the same ones we have now with improvements made.

Another creeping and small element of Gnosticism I see, in America in particular, is a Rapture theology. The world is evil and God's going to zoom us out of here while the world destroys itself. I smell large wiffs of Gnosticism in there.

I also recommend those books by NT Wright.
 
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Yekcidmij

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An element of Gnosticism that I see in the church is this idea that a disembodied existence in heaven is our ultimate hope. No, no, no - our great hope is resurrection on this earth, a renewed and restored earth and a physical existence on it in resurrected bodies, the same ones we have now with improvements made.

Another creeping and small element of Gnosticism I see, in America in particular, is a Rapture theology. The world is evil and God's going to zoom us out of here while the world destroys itself. I smell large wiffs of Gnosticism in there.
 
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An element of Gnosticism that I see in the church is this idea that a disembodied existence in heaven is our ultimate hope. No, no, no - our great hope is resurrection on this earth, a renewed and restored earth and a physical existence on it in resurrected bodies, the same ones we have now with improvements made.

Another creeping and small element of Gnosticism I see, in America in particular, is a Rapture theology. The world is evil and God's going to zoom us out of here while the world destroys itself. I smell large wiffs of Gnosticism in there.
You should start a thread on it. That sounds interesting. :thumbsup:
 
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An element of Gnosticism that I see in the church is this idea that a disembodied existence in heaven is our ultimate hope. No, no, no - our great hope is resurrection on this earth, a renewed and restored earth and a physical existence on it in resurrected bodies, the same ones we have now with improvements made.

Another creeping and small element of Gnosticism I see, in America in particular, is a Rapture theology. The world is evil and God's going to zoom us out of here while the world destroys itself. I smell large wiffs of Gnosticism in there.

John 16:36
36 Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”

1st Peter 2:11
11 Dear friends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against your very souls.

1st Corinthians 15:45-53


45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.



I agree with what you said from a certain point of view ... I don't think we percieve what exactly that means because this corrupted has to put on incorruption and the old heaven and old earth have to pass away and everything be made new.
 
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JimB

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You speak in tongues, a Baptist will tell you that scripture trumps your experience.

The Baptist plays piano in his church, The Church of Christ guy will say scripture trumps his experience.

Each “knows” on the authority of the word that they are correct.

John O.

Maybe, but their interpretation of scripture is wrong, as any P/C knows, both from scripture AND experience.

~Jim
Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.
 
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jeolmstead

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Maybe, but their interpretation of scripture is wrong, as any P/C knows, both from scripture AND experience.

~Jim

Beware of half-truths - you may get hold of the wrong half.


And each would say the same thing to us, (and believe it)

The truth is we all filter our experiences with the scriptures and our scriptures with our experiences.

This is why we see “through the glass dimly”. Some of my experiences are polish, and some are tarnish,

Lord help me to know the difference.

John O.
 
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