How flexible is God's planning

[FutureAndAHope]

Although I believe God has a plan for His creation, I believe it flexes with man's choices. The fact is God does not "cause" any man to sin. Sin, specifically fornication can lead to childbirth, and whole generations of change. So God's plan must flex, with the choices of people.

Do we see examples of God's planning flexing? I say yes:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."​

We see in the above scripture, God regretted making man. This shows that God did not plan out in a linear fashion people's destinies. He could only be sorry if there was a "free will" element that He did not control.

We also see that God progressively learned about His creation.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."​

We see above that God saw that man did not repent over longer life spans, so He restricted their life to 120 years in length. This shows God did not know the perfect length to begin with, but learned as time went by what was the best length for man to live.

1Sa 13:13-14 And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. But now your kingdom shall not continue.​

We also see above that the LORD "would have" established Saul's kingdom forever, had he not sinned, but sin denied him that opportunity.

So in conclusion, we see God's plan flexes with the choices made by people.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I believe God has a plan for His creation

That plan is Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Blessings

 

[Hentenza]

Although I believe God has a plan for His creation, I believe it flexes with man's choices. The fact is God does not "cause" any man to sin. Sin, specifically fornication can lead to childbirth, and whole generations of change. So God's plan must flex, with the choices of people.

Do we see examples of God's planning flexing? I say yes:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."​

We see in the above scripture, God regretted making man. This shows that God did not plan out in a linear fashion people's destinies. He could only be sorry if there was a "free will" element that He did not control.

We also see that God progressively learned about His creation.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."​

We see above that God saw that man did not repent over longer life spans, so He restricted their life to 120 years in length. This shows God did not know the perfect length to begin with, but learned as time went by what was the best length for man to live.

1Sa 13:13-14 And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. But now your kingdom shall not continue.​

We also see above that the LORD "would have" established Saul's kingdom forever, had he not sinned, but sin denied him that opportunity.

So in conclusion, we see God's plan flexes with the choices made by people.

I know that trying to discern and fully understand God’s attributes is impossible for us since there is an infinite difference between an infinite being and a finite being. That being said, the Bible clearly teaches us that God is omniscient. He knows all and therefore knows all past, present, and future. Read verses like 1 John 3:20, Mathew 10:29-30, and Isaiah 46:9-10 among many. So if God knows all that is going to happen He already knows the faults of Saul and mankind in general. I will posit to you that words like regret or repent with relation to God’s emotions is anthropomorphic to help us understand His sorrow in human terms.

Please understand that if God could change His mind then He could change His mind about the redemptive sacrifice of Christ, or any other covenant. In addition, if God is contingent on man or any other agency then God could not be the first cause and would be dependent of the agency in which He is contingent to not ever knowing the result if His creation.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I know that trying to discern and fully understand God’s attributes is impossible for us since there is an infinite difference between an infinite being and a finite being. That being said, the Bible clearly teaches us that God is omniscient. He knows all and therefore knows all past, present, and future. Read verses like 1 John 3:20, Mathew 10:29-30, and Isaiah 46:9-10 among many. So if God knows all that is going to happen He already knows the faults of Saul and mankind in general. I will posit to you that words like regret or repent with relation to God’s emotions is anthropomorphic to help us understand His sorrow in human terms.

Sorry, but those scriptures point to the fact that God has a measure of control, and has knowledge of the heart of man; they do not endow God with a perfect foreknowledge. The scriptures I provided counter what you are saying. God clearly regretted making man.

Please understand that if God could change His mind then He could change His mind about the redemptive sacrifice of Christ, or any other covenant. In addition, if God is contingent on man or any other agency then God could not be the first cause and would be dependent of the agency in which He is contingent to not ever knowing the result if His creation.

God, as God, has the right to change His mind about any judgment He proclaims. As for the cross, God would not change His mind on that. It is like us as humans, we have principals that we never compromise, and things that are flexible. To say God's every choice must be "fixed", is not logical.

 

[Hentenza]

Sorry, but those scriptures point to the fact that God has a measure of control, and has knowledge of the heart of man; they do not endow God with a perfect foreknowledge. The scriptures I provided counter what you are saying. God clearly regretted making man.



God, as God, has the right to change His mind about any judgment He proclaims. As for the cross, God would not change His mind on that. It is like us as humans, we have principals that we never compromise, and things that are flexible. To say God's every choice must be "fixed", is not logical.

So according to you God is not omniscient?

 

[Fervent]

It seems to me the issue is you are thinking of God as being in time, as if He is watching Creation from the sidelines and is a prisoner of time having to make a plan and then adjust on the fly. God is omnipresent, which means not only is He present everywhere in space but also in time. Time is an illusion, and God knows the end from the beginning.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So according to you God is not omniscient?

We must believe the bible's definition of God's knowledge (Him allowing free will), not just assign Him a human term.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It seems to me the issue is you are thinking of God as being in time, as if He is watching Creation from the sidelines and is a prisoner of time having to make a plan and then adjust on the fly. God is omnipresent, which means not only is He present everywhere in space but also in time. Time is an illusion, and God knows the end from the beginning.

Really? Then why did God "see" the sinfulness of man, and then regret making man, if He already knew? We need to believe the bible, not our preconceived, or taught, view of God.

 

[Fervent]

Really? Then why did God "see" the sinfulness of man, and then regret making man, if He already knew? We need to believe the bible, not our preconceived, or taught, view of God.

Anthropomorphisms don't discredit the omnipresence and omniscience of God. You may believe in a God that can make mistakes, but if He is capable of making a mistake how can you trust Him to not fowl up the whole affair? A God that has to learn is an untrustworthy God.

 

[Hentenza]

We must believe the bible's definition of God's knowledge (Him allowing free will), not just assign Him a human term.

Again, do you believe that God is not omniscient?

 

[HBP]

Although I believe God has a plan for His creation, I believe it flexes with man's choices. The fact is God does not "cause" any man to sin. Sin, specifically fornication can lead to childbirth, and whole generations of change. So God's plan must flex, with the choices of people.

Do we see examples of God's planning flexing? I say yes:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."​

We see in the above scripture, God regretted making man. This shows that God did not plan out in a linear fashion people's destinies. He could only be sorry if there was a "free will" element that He did not control.

We also see that God progressively learned about His creation.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."​

We see above that God saw that man did not repent over longer life spans, so He restricted their life to 120 years in length. This shows God did not know the perfect length to begin with, but learned as time went by what was the best length for man to live.

1Sa 13:13-14 And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. But now your kingdom shall not continue.​

We also see above that the LORD "would have" established Saul's kingdom forever, had he not sinned, but sin denied him that opportunity.

So in conclusion, we see God's plan flexes with the choices made by people.

Congratulations, you are on the road to process (open) theology! As with process theology, I believe there is a plan for creation but that it is only a plan in the broadest of terms and that nothing is set in concrete. God is an active (and reactive) participant in the plan, but humans have absolute freedom of will over their choices and actions. Theologian Greg Boyd has written extensively on open theism, which is somewhat easier to grasp than process theology. You might enjoy some of his books if you haven't read them.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Again, do you believe that God is not omniscient?

I believe the Bible. So, no He is not, in the sense that you present it. He is just powerful enough to put constraints or limits on man's free will.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Anthropomorphisms don't discredit the omnipresence and omniscience of God. You may believe in a God that can make mistakes, but if He is capable of making a mistake how can you trust Him to not fowl up the whole affair? A God that has to learn is an untrustworthy God.

Call the truth, a big scary word like "Anthropomorphisms", but it does not change the truth that God "saw" and God regretted. Ditch your doctrines for the truth.

 

[Fervent]

Call the truth, a big scary word like "Anthropomorphisms", but it does not change the truth that God "saw" and God regretted. Ditch your doctrines for the truth.

Your falsehoods are far from the truth, twisting Scripture to suit your purpose. Does your Bible not have numbers 23:19 in it?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Your falsehoods are far from the truth, twisting Scripture to suit your purpose. Does your Bible not have numbers 23:19 in it?

You preach as though God can not change His mind.

You quoted:

Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?​

But that is 100% not stating God cannot change His mind, see the whole of scripture:

Jer 18:8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.​

​

Jer 18:10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

​

Jer 26:3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.'​

​

Jer 26:13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will relent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you.​

​

Jer 42:10 'If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I relent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.​

​

Joe 2:14 Who knows if He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him—A grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God?​

​

Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?​

 

[Fervent]

You preach as though God can not change His mind.

You quoted:

Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?​

But that is 100% not stating God cannot change His mind, see the whole of scripture:

Jer 18:8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.​

​

Jer 18:10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

​

Jer 26:3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.'​

​

Jer 26:13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will relent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you.​

​

Jer 42:10 'If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I relent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.​

​

Joe 2:14 Who knows if He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him—A grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God?​

​

Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?​

What does "Nor a son of man, that he should repent" if not to state that He does not change His mind? You're mistaking language intended to make God familiar to us as being actually vulnerable to the kinds of changes human beings are.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread was moved from Soteriology to Controversial Christian Theology because of the discussion about open theism.

Below the Statement of Faith is this:
​

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism

​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Sorry, but those scriptures point to the fact that God has a measure of control, and has knowledge of the heart of man; they do not endow God with a perfect foreknowledge. The scriptures I provided counter what you are saying. God clearly regretted making man.



God, as God, has the right to change His mind about any judgment He proclaims. As for the cross, God would not change His mind on that. It is like us as humans, we have principals that we never compromise, and things that are flexible. To say God's every choice must be "fixed", is not logical.

If God could regret something he did he would not be the God of the scripture but a god of mans making and likeness.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Congratulations, you are on the road to process (open) theology! As with process theology, I believe there is a plan for creation but that it is only a plan in the broadest of terms and that nothing is set in concrete. God is an active (and reactive) participant in the plan, but humans have absolute freedom of will over their choices and actions. Theologian Greg Boyd has written extensively on open theism, which is somewhat easier to grasp than process theology. You might enjoy some of his books if you haven't read them.

Just bought Greg Boyd's book A.. God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God and read the first two chapters. His view is almost identical to mine. As with him, I came to the conclusion by study of scripture, after wrestling with the classical views of foreknowledge.

It is truly logical. Anyone who calls it a heresy is just uninformed.

 

[PatrickTate]

Although I believe God has a plan for His creation, I believe it flexes with man's choices. The fact is God does not "cause" any man to sin. Sin, specifically fornication can lead to childbirth, and whole generations of change. So God's plan must flex, with the choices of people.

Do we see examples of God's planning flexing? I say yes:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."​

We see in the above scripture, God regretted making man. This shows that God did not plan out in a linear fashion people's destinies. He could only be sorry if there was a "free will" element that He did not control.

We also see that God progressively learned about His creation.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."​

We see above that God saw that man did not repent over longer life spans, so He restricted their life to 120 years in length. This shows God did not know the perfect length to begin with, but learned as time went by what was the best length for man to live.

1Sa 13:13-14 And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. But now your kingdom shall not continue.​

We also see above that the LORD "would have" established Saul's kingdom forever, had he not sinned, but sin denied him that opportunity.

So in conclusion, we see God's plan flexes with the choices made by people.

I think that you are absolutely correct. We have amazing responsibility in our power of choice and our range of choice. Even our choices to pray for others and how fervently we pray can set in motion a major shift in their lives.