How Far Left? This Far...

[98cwitr]

They were paid for with involuntary taxes and, depending on which nation/empire we're talking about, some mix of plunder and government ownership of production.

Can you be more specific? What kinds of involuntary taxes?

 

[SimplyMe]

Roads and police existed prior to the 16th amendment. How were they paid for then?

I am for voluntary means of taxation. It's the involuntary that seem to make slaves out of all of us.

The US tried that, more or less, and "voluntary" taxation didn't work. It is why we now have the US Constitution instead of the Articles of Confederation. If we couldn't get voluntary taxation in Colonial times, I don't see how it would ever work today.

 

[98cwitr]

The US tried that, more or less, and "voluntary" taxation didn't work. It is why we now have the US Constitution instead of the Articles of Confederation. If we couldn't get voluntary taxation in Colonial times, I don't see how it would ever work today.

So between 1787 and 1909 we had what sort of national revenue model? It's a far cry from the modes and methods the left wishes to implement; which is in gross contrast to the following from our state's constitution:

The North Carolina Constitution provides, "We hold it to be self-evident that all persons are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, the enjoyment of the fruits of their own labor, and the pursuit of happiness."

The Fruits-of-Their-Labor Clause

Can't enjoy them when the government then usurps them from us.

Why does the left like the idea of turning us into state-owned slaves?

 

[Speedwell]

Can you be more specific? What kinds of involuntary taxes?

The same kind of taxes we have now. Property tax. Sales tax, customs duties, tariffs and other transaction taxes. Excises taxes. Do you really think there was no taxation prior to the 16th Amendment?

 

[98cwitr]

The same kind of taxes we have now. Property tax. Sales tax, customs duties, tariffs and other transaction taxes. Excises taxes. Do you really think there was no taxation prior to the 16th Amendment?

I can choose to buy property or not.

I can choose to buy a product or not.

I can choose to buy domestic or foreign product.

There was plenty of forms of taxation, which worked and still work well, that provide voluntary means of raising capital that do not threaten to remove a person's civil liberties if not paid. That is my real issue. Income taxes are under the threat of force.

 

[Speedwell]

I can choose to buy property or not.

I can choose to buy a product or not.

I can choose to buy domestic or foreign product.

There was plenty of forms of taxation, which worked and still work well, that provide voluntary means of raising capital that do not threaten to remove a person's civil liberties if not paid. That is my real issue. Income taxes are under the threat of force.

That's way too theoretical for me. Yes, you could go and live in the woods, squatting on someone else's land and living like a cave man and you wouldn't have to pay property tax, sales tax, excise tax or customs duties, but so what? You're never actually going to do that.

 

[SimplyMe]

I can choose to buy property or not.

But you do have to live somewhere, so at best you would be paying the taxes second hand -- likely even paying a fee for the extra work the property owner has to do in paying his taxes (such as accountant costs). So you still technically pay.

I can choose to buy a product or not.

Somewhat true -- though even if you grow your own food and make your own clothes, you still likely need to buy farm equipment, as well as needle and thread. Yes, you can limit what you pay but I'm guessing the life of trying to "minimize taxes" would not be an appealing life. Not to mention, you'd still be paying tax on the land -- particularly since it has always proven difficult to make a living as a sharecropper (where you are only paying the tax second hand).

I can choose to buy domestic or foreign product.

There was plenty of forms of taxation, which worked and still work well, that provide voluntary means of raising capital that do not threaten to remove a person's civil liberties if not paid. That is my real issue. Income taxes are under the threat of force.

Sorry, but no. I suspect if we had no income tax, you'd be complaining about being "forced" to pay sales taxes and property taxes, with the threat of civil liberties if they find you not paying them.

 

[98cwitr]

But you do have to live somewhere, so at best you would be paying the taxes second hand -- likely even paying a fee for the extra work the property owner has to do in paying his taxes (such as accountant costs). So you still technically pay.

True! I can choose where though, and I could base that decision on the taxation of such property. I could also choose to rent and have the tax burden on my landlord, who obviously would extend such costs to me, but also my fellow neighbors; albeit I think perpetual renting is absolutely preposterous and a financially ignorant thing to do.

Somewhat true -- though even if you grow your own food and make your own clothes, you still likely need to buy farm equipment, as well as needle and thread. Yes, you can limit what you pay but I'm guessing the life of trying to "minimize taxes" would not be an appealing life. Not to mention, you'd still be paying tax on the land -- particularly since it has always proven difficult to make a living as a sharecropper (where you are only paying the tax second hand).

Sure! I could buy those things used and avoid the taxation.

Sorry, but no. I suspect if we had no income tax, you'd be complaining about being "forced" to pay sales taxes and property taxes, with the threat of civil liberties if they find you not paying them.

I wouldn't. We pay those now and I do not harp on them. I am not an anarchist, and I do believe the government needs forms of taxation to provide certain services such as arbitration and national defense; my issue is that they are forced by men with guns.

 

[SimplyMe]

True! I can choose where though, and I could base that decision on the taxation of such property. I could also choose to rent and have the tax burden on my landlord, who obviously would extend such costs to me, but also my fellow neighbors; albeit I think perpetual renting is absolutely preposterous and a financially ignorant thing to do.

Sure! I could buy those things used and avoid the taxation.

Last I knew, used items are still taxed -- though you are right that enforcement is lax if you buy it from another individual, and not from a store. But, again, even buying used, you are helping to pay the tax that the original owner paid -- just second hand, as it was part of his costs.

I wouldn't. We pay those now and I do not harp on them. I am not an anarchist, and I do believe the government needs forms of taxation to provide certain services such as arbitration and national defense; my issue is that they are forced by men with guns.

Yet I find this a distinction without a difference. All taxes, be it property tax, sales tax, or income tax, are "forced by men with guns." Your issue appears to be you only want to be taxed on items you feel are acceptable, and for taxes to only be spent on what you want -- regardless of what a majority of your fellow Americans prefer.

 

[98cwitr]

Last I knew, used items are still taxed -- though you are right that enforcement is lax if you buy it from another individual, and not from a store. But, again, even buying used, you are helping to pay the tax that the original owner paid -- just second hand, as it was part of his costs.

Check again. I buy many used items (Craigslist, from friends and coworkers) that have no taxation associated with them for that particular transaction.

Yet I find this a distinction without a difference. All taxes, be it property tax, sales tax, or income tax, are "forced by men with guns." Your issue appears to be you only want to be taxed on items you feel are acceptable, and for taxes to only be spent on what you want -- regardless of what a majority of your fellow Americans prefer.

No theyre not. Does anyone put a gun to your head and force you to buy a car, or a new purse, or shoes? No, those are voluntary transactions.

Sure, you could make the argument that I choose to work and therefore earn income and income is voluntary to a degree, and to a degree you're right, but to choose otherwise would prohibit me to care for my family and myself. I could choose to be homeless, but that's not my God-given nature, so I don't choose such things.

 

[Speedwell]

Check again. I buy many used items (Craigslist, from friends and coworkers) that have no taxation associated with them for that particular transaction.



No theyre not. Does anyone put a gun to your head and force you to buy a car, or a new purse, or shoes? No, those are voluntary transactions.

Sure, you could make the argument that I choose to work and therefore earn income and income is voluntary to a degree, and to a degree you're right, but to choose otherwise would prohibit me to care for my family and myself. I could choose to be homeless, but that's not my God-given nature, so I don't choose such things.

Try not paying your property tax for a while. You'll see the men with guns eventually.

 

[SimplyMe]

Check again. I buy many used items (Craigslist, from friends and coworkers) that have no taxation associated with them for that particular transaction.

That is nice, but it doesn't change what I stated. Again, there are sales tax, in most every state, on used items -- just typically they don't even attempt to enforce it unless you buy from a business. And, again, the item had the original tax paid, even if you aren't directly paying for it.

No theyre not. Does anyone put a gun to your head and force you to buy a car, or a new purse, or shoes? No, those are voluntary transactions.

I never claimed they weren't. You can choose not to buy anything, ever. Though I'm not sure what type of lifestyle that would be.

Sure, you could make the argument that I choose to work and therefore earn income and income is voluntary to a degree, and to a degree you're right, but to choose otherwise would prohibit me to care for my family and myself. I could choose to be homeless, but that's not my God-given nature, so I don't choose such things.

Yes, you could buy yourself a farm and become almost completely self-sufficient -- kind of like some of the Preppers do. Even live "off the grid." You could get out of almost all taxes then, particularly as you could claim to have no income. As you point out, you have chosen not to live that way -- it is your choice you are working a job and paying income tax.

But, again, you ignored the point that it is your fellow citizens who have chosen not to solely limit the government to sales and property taxes.

 

[Dryskale]

Distributism seems very much like a trojan horse. Someone or something must control the distribution, to whom, and how much.

I ask a third time: How much of my labor, in a numerical value representing the percentage, should the state own?

What you are asking is very complex and nuanced. Right now it's a progressive tax structure, so it depends on what your yearly income is.

 

[98cwitr]

What you are asking is very complex and nuanced. Right now it's a progressive tax structure, so it depends on what your yearly income is.

Not really. We can boil it down to effective rates. So how much...what's a good number?

 

[98cwitr]

Try not paying your property tax for a while. You'll see the men with guns eventually.

One evil at a time please.

 

[Speedwell]

One evil at a time please.

LOL! The fact is we live in a democratic republic and decide together how and how much we are to be taxed. If you think that's evil, go try and find a place to live that has no taxes.

 

[Dryskale]

Not really. We can boil it down to effective rates. So how much...what's a good number?

Are you putting a gun to my head and demanding that answer?

 

[Dryskale]

Not really. We can boil it down to effective rates. So how much...what's a good number?

Do you own land? What's your yearly income? Do you contribute to community with public works or charitable donations? Do you have Children? Do you take care of your parents or other dependents? Do you use natural or public resources?

These questions are some of what is used to determine a tax debt. Unless you are wanting a moral justification for this, then we would have to discuss what is important to how a society functions and what pertains to a society.

 

[98cwitr]

Are you putting a gun to my head and demanding that answer?

Ha! No way!

 

[98cwitr]

LOL! The fact is we live in a democratic republic and decide together how and how much we are to be taxed. If you think that's evil, go try and find a place to live that has no taxes.

I don't think we do. The majority of the population wants to legalize marijuana, for example. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. Certain minority-view factions continue to win. So to consider that the government is still "of the People" I think is an illusion of granduer. It may have once been true, but it no longer is. We need to make it that way again though, if it ever truly was.