How does Trent align to scripture?

TraderJack said:

Canon 23 of the 6th Session of Trent on Justification as rendered by the OP:

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Canon 23 as rendered by the provided Roman source: Once again, exactly the same....

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I won't name names, but I find it interesting that it was a MODERATOR that reported the OP, for much the same reason I stated in this earlier post:

Catholic Christian said:

The source link in the OP is not a Catholic source, and the document has been altered. This is therefore a forgery and a lie. This is not valid theology - it is forgery and misinformation.

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People chose one or two sections that were not altered and presented them as proof that the OP is an authentic representation: Very disingenuous.

Here's how Trent aligns with scripture:

Christ established an authorative Church. That Church makes decisions that are binding, as is seen in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts - where, by the way, they didn't even bother to consult the scripture when deciding doctrine on circumcision.

Trent is in line with the Biblical process on formulating doctrines. If anyone thinks Trent does not align with Scripture, it is not the fault of Trent - it is the the erroneous interpretaion of Scripture by that individual which is the problem.


"...thou art Peter (kepha) and upon
this Rock (kepha) I shall build my Church..."

quote=PaladinValer;Tell me...what does the Greek imply when it talks about "faith." Is it passive or is it active?

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"Passive faith" is an oxymoron.

Apostolic Christians get it. Evangelicals do not.

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I recommend Prunes.

The source was cited so the charge of misrepresentation is false.

It is pretty plain to the unjaundiced eye that the scriptures cited are for refutation of the canons above them as a glance at the cited scource confirms.

Here the a web addy for all of the Councils of Trent Documents.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm#2

There are the Canons and on my next post I will include the foot notes wich have the correct Scriptural references.

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.
Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.
Canon 4.
If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
Canon 5.
If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let him be anathema.
Canon 6.
If anyone says that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil as well as those that are good God produces, not permissively only but also propria et per se, so that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of St. Paul, let him be anathema.
Canon 7.
If anyone says that all works done before justification, in whatever manner they may be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins, let him be anathema.
Canon 8.
If anyone says that the fear of hell,[113] whereby, by grieving for sins, we flee to the mercy of God or abstain from sinning, is a sin or makes sinners worse, let him be anathema.
Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
Canon 10.
If anyone says that men are justified without the justice of Christ,[115] whereby Her merited for us, or by that justice are formally just, let him be anathema.
Canon 11.
If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost,[116] and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.
Canon 12.
If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Canon 13.
If anyone says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary for every man to believe with certainty and without any hesitation arising from his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him, let him be anathema.
Canon 14.
If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified,[118] or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.
Canon 15.
If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined,[119] let him be anathema.
Canon 16.
If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation,[120] let him be anathema.
Canon 17.
If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.
Canon 18.
If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace,[121] impossible to observe, let him be anathema.
Canon 19.
If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema.
Canon 20.
If anyone says that a man who is justified and however perfect is not bound to observe the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe,[122] as if the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life without the condition of observing the commandments, let him be anathema.
Canon 21.
If anyone says that Christ Jesus was given by God to men as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey, let him be anathema.
Canon 22.
If anyone says that the one justified either can without the special help of God persevere in the justice received,[123] or that with that help he cannot, let him be anathema.
Canon 23.
If anyone says that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace,[124] and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or on the contrary, that he can during his whole life avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin, let him be anathema.
Canon 24.
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.
Canon 25.
If anyone says that in every good work the just man sins at least venially,[126] or, what is more intolerable, mortally, and hence merits eternal punishment, and that he is not damned for this reason only, because God does not impute these works into damnation, let him be anathema.
Canon 26.
If anyone says that the just ought not for the good works done in God[127] to expect and hope for an eternal reward from God through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if by doing well and by keeping the divine commandments they persevere to the end,[128] let him be anathema.
Canon 27.
If anyone says that there is no mortal sin except that of unbelief,[129] or that grace once received is not lost through any other sin however grievous and enormous except by that of unbelief, let him be anathema.
Canon 28.
If anyone says that with the loss of grace through sin faith is also lost with it, or that the faith which remains is not a true faith, though it is not a living one, or that he who has faith without charity is not a Christian, let him be anathema.
Canon 29.
If anyone says that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again,[130] or that he can indeed recover again the lost justice but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and Universal Church, instructed by Christ the Lord and His Apostles, has hitherto professed, observed and taught, let him be anathema.
Canon 30.
If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world[131] or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened,[132] let him be anathema.
Canon 31.
If anyone says that the one justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal reward,[133] let him be anathema.
Canon 32.
If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.
Canon 33.
If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, let him be anathema.

Peace

Notes
1. Mal. 4:2.
2. Heb. 12:2.
3. Rom. 5:12; 1 Cor. 15:22.
4. Is. 64:6.
5. Eph. 2:3.
6. Cf. Sess. V at the beginning.
7. Rom. 6:17, 20.
8. Cf. II Synod of Orange (529), c.25. Hardouin, II, 1101.
9. See II Cor. 1:3.
10. Gal. 4:4.
11. Gen. 49:10, 18.
12. Gal. 4:5.
13. Rom. 9:30.
14. Ibid., 3:25; Dist. I De poenit., passim.
15. See 1 John 2:2.
16. See II Cor. 5:15.
17. Col. 1:12-14.
18. John 3:5.
19. Zach. 1:3.
20. Lam. 5:21.
21. Rom. 10:17.
22. Ibid., 3:24.
23. Cf. Sess. XIV, chap. 4.
24. Heb. 11:6.
25. Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5.
26. Ecclus. 1:27.
27. Acts 2:38; cc.13, 97, D.IV de cons.
28. Matt. 28:19f.
29. See 1 Kings 7:3.
30. Tit. 3:7.
31. See 1 Cor. 6:11.
32. Eph. 1:13f.
33. Rom. 5:10.
34. Eph. 2:4.
35. C.76, D.IV de cons.
36. Eph. 4:23.
37. See I Cor. 12:11.
38. Rom 5:5.
39. Cf. infra, chap. 10.
40. James 2:17, 20.
41. Gal 5:6, 6:15.
42. Matt. 19:17.
43. Luke 15:22; c.31, D.II de poenit.
44. Rom. 3:24; 5:1.
45. Heb. 11:6.
46. Rom. 11:6.
47. Cf. infra, can. 12 and 13.
48. Infra, can. 14.
49. Eph. 2:19.
50. Ps. 83:8.
51. See 2 Cor. 4:16.
52. Col. 3:5.
53. Rom. 6:13, 19.
54. Apoc. 22:11.
55. Ecclus. 18:22.
56. James 2:24.
57. Thirteenth Sunday after Pentecost.
58. St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, c.43 (50), PL, XLIV, 271.
59. See 1 John 5:3.
60. Matt. 11:30.
61. John 14:23.
62. Matt. 6:12.
63. Rom. 6:18, 22.
64. Tit. 2:12.
65. Rom. 5:1f.
66. Ibid., 8:17.
67. Heb. 5:8f.
68. See 1 Cor. 9:24, 26f.
69. See 2 Pet. 1:10.
70. Cf. infra, can. 25.
71. Cf. infra, can. 31.
72. Ps. 118:112.
73. Heb. 11:26.
74. Cf. C.17, C.XXIV, q.3.
75. Matt. 10:22; 24:13.
76. Rom. 14:4.
77. Phil. 1:6, 2:13.
78. See 1 Cor. 10:12.
79. Phil. 2:12.
80. See 1 Pet. 1:3.
81. Rom. 8:12f.
82. Cf. infra, can. 23 and 29.
83. C.72, D.I de poenit.
84. John 20:22f.
85. Ps. 50:19.
86. Eph. 4:30.
87. See 1 Cor. 3:17.
88. Apoc. 2:5.
89. See II Cor. 7:10.
90. Matt. 3:2; 4:17; Luke 3:8.
91. Rom. 16:18.
92. See I Cor. 6:9f.; 1 Tim. 1:9f.
93. See I Cor. 15:58.
94. Heb. 6:10.
95. Heb. 10:35.
96. Matt. 10:22.
97. Rom. 6:22.
98. See II Tim. 4:8.
99. John 15:1f.
100. Apoc. 14:13.
101. John 4:13f.
102. Rom. 10:3; II Cor. 3:5.
103. Matt. 10:42; Mark 9:40.
104. See II Cor. 4:17.
105. See I Cor. 1:31; II Cor. 10:17.
106. James 3:2.
107. See I Cor. 4:3f.
108. Ibid., 4:5.
109. Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6; Apoc. 22:12.
110. Cf. supra, chaps. 1, 3.
111. Ibid., chap. 5.
112. Rom. 5:5.
113. Matt. 10:28; Luke 12:5.
114. Supra, chaps. 7, 8.
115. Gal. 2:16; supra, chap. 7.
116. Rom. 5:5.
117. Supra, chap. 9.
118. Supra, chap. 9.
119. Supra, chap. 12.
120. Ibid., chap. 13.
121. Ibid., chap. 11.
122. Cf. chap. cit.
123. Supra, chap. 13.
124. Ibid., chap. 14.
125. Ibid., chap. 10.
126. Ibid., chap. 11 at the end.
127. Ibid., chap. 16.
128. Matt. 24:13.
129. Supra, chap. 15.
130. Ibid., chap. 14.
131. Cf. Sess. XIV, chap. 8.
132. Cf. Sess. XXV at the beginning.
133. Supra, chap. 11 at the end.
134. C.5, D.LXI.
135. C.4, D.LIX; cc.2, 6, 8, D.LXI.
136. Acts 20:28.
137. See II Tim. 4:5.
138. John 10:12.
139. Ezech. 33:6.
140. C.20, C.VII, q.1 ff.; tit. X, De cler. non resid., III, 4 et in VI, III, 3.
141. C.11, X, De cler. non resid., III, 4.
142. Cf. Sess. XXIII, chap. 1 de ref.
143. Cf. Sess. and chap. cit.
144. Cf. Schroeder, Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils, p.353, no. 60.
145. C.15, VI, De rescript., I, 3.
146. C.34, VI, De elect., I, 6.
147. Cf. Sess. XIV, chap. 4 de ref.
148. Cf. Sess. XXIV, chap. 3 de ref. and Sess. XXV, chap. 6 de ref.
149. Cf. Sess. XIV, chaps. 2, 3 de ref. and Sess. XXIII, chap. 8 de ref.

Peace

myfavoritmartin said:

How would you know who reported it?
FOR THOSE UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE OP I'VE EDITED TO ADD:COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE...

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Post #2 is the scene of the crime.

myfavoritmartin said:

Scott? really?

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No. And that is all I will say.

I've been looking at post #19 on the 23rd Canon of the 6th seesion on Justification and it appears that someone has changed the words "who ever saith" (quoted in the first two references) to "who ever believeth" (quoted in the third reference). The canons all say "who ever saith" because they were pointed at persons who were teaching (not believing) heresy.

Something is definately up.

And am I correct in understanding that the scripture references in the OP were put there by a non-Catholic source?

tadoflamb said:

I've been looking at post #19 on the 23rd Canon of the 6th seesion on Justification and it appears that someone has changed the words "who ever saith" (quoted in the first two references) to "who ever believeth" (quoted in the third reference). The canons all say "who ever saith" because they were pointed at persons who were teaching (not believing) heresy.

Something is definately up.

And am I correct in understanding that the scripture references in the OP were put there by a non-Catholic source?

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Carm.org is a known anti-Catholic site. To try and quote Catholic documents from an anti-Catholic website is like trying to find out the positions of the Democrat Party at a Republican website. That type of misinformation seems to violate the commandment about bearing false witness against your neighbor.

Catholic Christian said:

Carm.org is a known anti-Catholic site. To try and quote Catholic documents from an anti-Catholic website is like trying to find out the positions of the Democrat Party at a Republican website. That type of misinformation seems to violate the commandment about bearing false witness against your neighbor.

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Thanks for the heads up.

There certainly is something very disturbing about this.

Anyone not in submission to the pope is by the RC definition un-saved & therefore anti-catholic.
That much was made clear in the Bull "Unam Sanctum" which I have quoted & linked to for your convenience, in my signature at the bottom of my posts.

There will be a few differences in language because the documents were originally written in Latin.

I wish somebody would a new translation. Hanover College reproduces the 1848 Waterworth translation, and that translation uses language that was archaic at that time.

A key canon in understanding the position of Trent occurs from the seventh session it in translation says:

CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed, but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices for the obtaining of grace; let him be anathema.

The really important phrase is "through the act performed". This is a translation of ex opere operato. This say that it is not works and faith, but the works themselves save you. Faith is not necessary, simply perform the works. It is contrasted with faith alone but if you take the first part of the sentence, the official position of the Roman Catholic Church, there is no faith.

All this has of course been debated and proven false long ago. The definitive reference on Trent was written by Marin Chemnitz not long after Trent concluded. He understood the positions of Rome very well for he was living the debate. His writings have been translated for us and for anyone wanting to really understand Trent I would refer to his 4 volume work.

http://www.cph.org/cphstore/product...egory=&find_description=&find_part_desc=trent

or electronically by a different translator in Collection 7 at: http://www.cph.org/forms/CETL/

Marv