How does this relate to us...

[stratt]

1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Here is my understanding of this verse.....
The eating of things offered to idols is not a sin, but we should abstain from it for the sake of those who are weak in the faith....

Could this be applied to those who believe we should be baptised? or not be baptised?

Those who think there are two gospels, or those who only believe the one by which they were saved?

speak in tounges/ not speak in tounges?

To put it another way.... after salvation... should we not support with love those who are weaker (or we think are weaker) than ourselves?

Because if you believe that baptisim is of no value , then you still know that it IS a sin to offend those who are weak in the faith.

Also paul says,

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

The context may be wrong.....

 

[A Brother In Christ]

1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Here is my understanding of this verse.....
The eating of things offered to idols is not a sin, but we should abstain from it for the sake of those who are weak in the faith....

Could this be applied to those who believe we should be baptised? or not be baptised?

Those who think there are two gospels, or those who only believe the one by which they were saved?

speak in tounges/ not speak in tounges?

To put it another way.... after salvation... should we not support with love those who are weaker (or we think are weaker) than ourselves?

Because if you believe that baptisim is of no value , then you still know that it IS a sin to offend those who are weak in the faith.

Also paul says,

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

The context may be wrong.....

One must be sensitive to New Believers ...

but a elder in the faith should not agree with wrong understanding .... but ignore it and continue to teach bible and let the H.S. contonect the dots

 

[timlamb]

1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Here is my understanding of this verse.....
The eating of things offered to idols is not a sin, but we should abstain from it for the sake of those who are weak in the faith....

Could this be applied to those who believe we should be baptised? or not be baptised?

Those who think there are two gospels, or those who only believe the one by which they were saved?

speak in tounges/ not speak in tounges?

To put it another way.... after salvation... should we not support with love those who are weaker (or we think are weaker) than ourselves?

Because if you believe that baptisim is of no value , then you still know that it IS a sin to offend those who are weak in the faith.

Also paul says,

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

The context may be wrong.....

Stratt, very good post. Paul understood the struggle of the Jew and the law, He taught Jews the Gospel message many times. Your application of scripture is wonderful, that is what "rightly dividing" means, to understand and properly use scripture.

 

[biblebeliever123]

Sound doctrine matters. Growing in Christ and better understanding of the Word of God is important. The idea of the body of Christ is to edify one another...that is BUILD UP...not to leave the babe in Christ as a babe but to KNOW what God would have you to KNOW. God would not have us to be 'ignorant brethren.' He gave all His word for our learning and specifically to the body of Christ he gave the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.
God would have all men to be saved .... AND... to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,Titus 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Adorning the doctrine....that's a very expressive thought isn't it !!

Take note of how Paul was dealing with the Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Always consider the weaker brother but don't encourage the weaker brother to remain in that condition. Edify him, build him up in Christ, and help him to come into a better understanding and appreciation of what Christ has accomplished for the believer by his finished crosswork, his death, burial, and resurrection...that he is accepted in the beloved, complete in Christ, and that now out of gratitude to serve the Lord.
Encourage the weaker brother to be taught by grace how to live the daily walk of the believer.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(TEACHING US....grace teaches us. )

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Our liberty in Christ does not give us license to sin, but rather gives us liberty to SERVE.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

 

[eph3Nine]

Stratt, very good post. Paul understood the struggle of the Jew and the law, He taught Jews the Gospel message many times. Your application of scripture is wonderful, that is what "rightly dividing" means, to understand and properly use scripture.

Paul didnt teach JEWS. He taught the GENTILES, of which the Jewish nation was part , AFTER God "SET THEM ASIDE" and removed their preferential status.

Paul taught the BODY OF CHRIST, which consisted of both jew and gentile made into ONE NEW MAN. His message and ministry was NOT to the nation Israel but to the Body of Christ...the NEW CREATION.

All we are asking is that you make the distinction as well.

 

[biblebeliever123]

Paul didnt teach JEWS. He taught the GENTILES, of which the Jewish nation was part AFTER God SET THEM ASIDE and removed their preferential status.

Paul taught the BODY OF CHRIST, which consisted of both jew and gentile made into ONE NEW MAN. His message and ministry was NOT to the nation Israel but to the Body of Christ...the NEW CREATION.

All we are asking is that you make the distinction as well.

Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not, a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[timlamb]

Paul didnt teach JEWS. He taught the GENTILES, of which the Jewish nation was part , AFTER God "SET THEM ASIDE" and removed their preferential status.

Paul taught the BODY OF CHRIST, which consisted of both jew and gentile made into ONE NEW MAN. His message and ministry was NOT to the nation Israel but to the Body of Christ...the NEW CREATION.

All we are asking is that you make the distinction as well.

You're saying there were only Gentiles to Paul?

"Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to every one, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law, I became like one under the law."
! Cor. 9:19,20

"...where there was a Jewish synagogue. As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three sabbath days he reasoned with them from scriptures, ..." Acts 17:1-2

Pauls focus may have been on gentiles but he did not avoid Jews.

 

[eph3Nine]

That is correct . He did not avoid JEWS. However, the gospel he preached to them was NOT the Kingdom gospel. Those "jews" no longer had any NATIONAL DISTINCTION and were placed in the same status as the unbelieving GENTILES.
"God concluded them ALL in UNBELIEF, in order to have mercy upon all."

Pauls message to these "jews" who no longer had special status with God (He called them LO AMMI...and still does to this day...which means NOT MY PEOPLE) was the MYSTERY program...NOT the Kingdom program that Peter had been preaching.

By the way...Paul went into the synagogues because that was where most of the UNBELIEVERS WERE!

God set the Nation Israel ASIDE for their UNBELIEF in THEIR program...which was a coming, prophesied MESSIAH...NOT a Head of a (then) NON EXISTANT BODY!

 

[timlamb]

That is correct . He did not avoid JEWS. However, the gospel he preached to them was NOT the Kingdom gospel. Those "jews" no longer had any NATIONAL DISTINCTION and were placed in the same status as the unbelieving GENTILES.
"God concluded them ALL in UNBELIEF, in order to have mercy upon all."

Pauls message to these "jews" who no longer had special status with God (He called them LO AMMI...and still does to this day...which means NOT MY PEOPLE) was the MYSTERY program...NOT the Kingdom program that Peter had been preaching.

By the way...Paul went into the synagogues because that was where most of the UNBELIEVERS WERE!

God set the Nation Israel ASIDE for their UNBELIEF in THEIR program...which was a coming, prophesied MESSIAH...NOT a Head of a (then) NON EXISTANT BODY!

Wow, you are saying that Paul preached different Gospels, are you saying that the jews became like gentiles, are you saying it was ok for Paul to go to the un-believing jews in the synagogues, but the believing Jews are believing the wrong program, are you saying paul preached the gentile gospel to the jews????

Just what are you saying .

We were talking about Paul teaching Jews, did you just agree or disagree, or are you saying he taught them Jew stuff not gentile programs, rightly divided, mystery...something .

 

[stratt]

I think what she is saying, is that the jews were a seperate entity from the gentiles until christ died, then in Gods eyes, the jews became the same as the rest of us ( although only for a time. ) When that time is fulfilled, the nation of isael will again be divided from the rest of the world. I think that is what she is saying.... that has been my understanding of scripture anyways....

I personally dont disagree that isreal was seperate from gentiles, but they arent different during this age of grace. That makes sence to me.

I also see that the israel which exists today, is a part of bible prophesy (not that they follow god) but that they are prophesied to reject the christ and carry on, go back into the land and rebuild the temple.

I can see where jesus' life was basically the old testament, in that it is directed at israel, but that after his death, the program changed.

All of this is clear to me (at least in my understanding) but what of it? Is it that important? shouldnt we concentrate on the finer things of our own dispensation? Things such as the fruit of the spirit? Or Jesus?

I guess what im asking is.... if jesus himself said that all of scripture speaks of him, then why would we want to go through the bible looking for separation between isreal and gentiles but not looking for jesus? Is the bible really mostly about the seperation? Isnt Jesus the main focal point of scripture? Werent all the dispensations and in fact all of scripture intended to glorify God and present him in a way that we, in our total depravity, can see him for the holy, gracious God he is?

I dont really see alot of glory for god or our realization of sin in the dispensational method.... nor talk of salvation..... i may be horribly wrong, but i just wanted to see what you guys had to say.

 

[timlamb]

I think what she is saying, is that the jews were a seperate entity from the gentiles until christ died, then in Gods eyes, the jews became the same as the rest of us ( although only for a time. ) When that time is fulfilled, the nation of isael will again be divided from the rest of the world. I think that is what she is saying.... that has been my understanding of scripture anyways....

I personally dont disagree that isreal was seperate from gentiles, but they arent different during this age of grace. That makes sence to me.

I also see that the israel which exists today, is a part of bible prophesy (not that they follow god) but that they are prophesied to reject the christ and carry on, go back into the land and rebuild the temple.

I can see where jesus' life was basically the old testament, in that it is directed at israel, but that after his death, the program changed.

All of this is clear to me (at least in my understanding) but what of it? Is it that important? shouldnt we concentrate on the finer things of our own dispensation? Things such as the fruit of the spirit? Or Jesus?

I guess what im asking is.... if jesus himself said that all of scripture speaks of him, then why would we want to go through the bible looking for separation between isreal and gentiles but not looking for jesus? Is the bible really mostly about the seperation? Isnt Jesus the main focal point of scripture? Werent all the dispensations and in fact all of scripture intended to glorify God and present him in a way that we, in our total depravity, can see him for the holy, gracious God he is?

I dont really see alot of glory for god or our realization of sin in the dispensational method.... nor talk of salvation..... i may be horribly wrong, but i just wanted to see what you guys had to say.

Stratt, you seem to have an unprententious, insightful, honesty about you, I am humbled.

I come to this thread in search of dispensational truth, and found this, I think your opinions are right, if not of dispensationalism, at least of some of those here who practice it. I think using dipensations is good for bible study, but completely impractical for applying the word.

You seem to be on an honest search for truth, that is honorable; and you are in it with your eyes wide open.

Your first questions here sounded a little niave, so forgive me for being condisending. Our discussion here has evolved into a volly of egos. We should be embarassed. Feel free to make any analasis of what you see here, but don't hang around too long and become poisoned. There must be better ground for your pearls.

God Bless,
Tim

 

[eph3Nine]

Wow, you are saying that Paul preached different Gospels, are you saying that the jews became like gentiles, are you saying it was ok for Paul to go to the un-believing jews in the synagogues, but the believing Jews are believing the wrong program, are you saying paul preached the gentile gospel to the jews????

Yes...Paul was commissioned to preach ONE gospel...it was NOT the same gospel as that of Peter.

Pauls gospel was that which WAS a MYSTERY until God revealed it TO him. The Bible says that "God concluded (both Jew AND Gentile) in UNBELIEF, so that He could have mercy upon ALL". God says He took away Israels special status and made her as all other...GENTILES...unbelievers.

Was it ok for Paul to go to UNBELIEVING JEWS in the synagogues. Sure it was. God sent him to ALL people. His commission was to the world...ALL unbelievers were Gentiles.
Believing Jews, that is those who had already been saved under the Kingdom program that Peter preached, were part of the "little flock" and Paul didnt need to preach to them...they were already saved and part of Gods EARTHLY PROGRAM.

Jews from Paul on who believed the gospel HE preached, are part of the heavenly program and of the Body of Christ. ONE LORD, a unity in HIM, but different destinations and audiences.

Just what are you saying .

We were talking about Paul teaching Jews, did you just agree or disagree, or are you saying he taught them Jew stuff not gentile programs, rightly divided, mystery...something .

Im saying what the Word of God teaches. Paul taught ALL people...His commission was to Gentiles, of which the nation Israel belonged AFTER God set them ASIDE and began the "preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING to the MYSTERY".

There was no such thing as JEW and GENTILE to Paul when it came to his message. He taught them ALL as ALL of them were considered UNBELIEVERS if they hadnt already been saved by Peters message.

 

[timlamb]

I wish you would actually READ some of the posts we have made in here. You would SEE the answers in scripture for yourself.

Yes...Paul was commissioned to preach ONE gospel...it was NOT the same gospel as that of Peter.

Believing Jews, that is those who had already been saved under the Kingdom program that Peter preached, were part of the "little flock" and Paul didnt need to preach to them...they were already saved and part of Gods EARTHLY PROGRAM.

Jews from Paul on who believed the gospel HE preached, are part of the heavenly program and of the Body of Christ. ONE LORD, a unity in HIM, but different destinations and audiences.

There was no such thing as JEW and GENTILE to Paul when it came to his message. He taught them ALL as ALL of them were considered UNBELIEVERS if they hadnt already been saved by Peters message.

I cant make you understand this...you have to study it for yourself.

So you are saying that if Peter got to them first with HIS gospel, they are earthbound in the little flock.

But if Paul got to them first with HIS gospel, they are no longer seperated from the body and are heaven bound.

So they are saved either way, it just changes their destination?

What of us who believe both of them, do we get to go where we want?

 

[eph3Nine]

So you are saying that if Peter got to them first with HIS gospel, they are earthbound in the little flock.

The only gospel being preached to the nation ISRAEL was Peters gospel. When that program was set ASIDE, which the bible says it WAS, Paul was raised up with the gospel of the GRACE of God for ALL...jew and gentile alike.

Its not about what "I" say...but about what GOD has said. The Nation of Israel REJECTED Gods KINGDOM program with an earthly KING..one that was prophesied over and over. When it became clear that Israel was putting the other nations in jeopardy by NOT believing FIRST....God went to His SECRET plan that allowed for ALL men to be saved without depending on the Nation Israel. Thats whats so awesome about the MYSTERY. God had it in mind ALL ALONG...and wouldnt let mankind keep Him from redeeming them.

But if Paul got to them first with HIS gospel, they are no longer seperated from the body and are heaven bound.

The Jews KNEW what their gospel was. By the time Paul came along they had either accepted it or they rejected it. When Paul was given the gospel of the GRACE of God for ALL men, those jews remaining were given the option of believing without the law. They never WERE in the Body of Christ...so they have nothing to MISS. They had unique promises and a unique calling which they alone can fulfil.

NOW, one who is jewish has to come to God the way every other unbeliever does...thru faith in the finished work of Christ. He would be placed INTO the Body of Christ thru the ONE baptism of Eph. 4:5. That baptism was NOT available for the OT saints..theirs was a water baptism that DEMONSTRATED their faith in the program God set out for THEM.

God has TWO realms ...Heaven and EARTH. Israel has to do with the earthly realm...WE, the Body of Christ , have to do with Gods re establishing His rule and reign in HEAVEN.

So they are saved either way, it just changes their destination?['quote]

YES, now you are getting it!!!! Hallelujah! Yes yes yes...salvation was provided under BOTH sets of good news or gospels. BELIEVING was the issue...and yes, the destinations are different...ONE rules on EARTH with earthly thrones and an earthly KING and KINGDOM, and we rule in the heavenlies over the angels in a heavenly Kingdom.

What of us who believe both of them, do we get to go where we want?

LOL...We are SUPPOSED to believe both of them. Both of them ARE TRUE. But only ONE of them is true FOR YOU! You arent offered the deal given to the Nation Israel, and they werent offered (before Paul) what WE have. Both are wonderful and unique and awesome.

However, God is the One who decides where we end up...LOL

Believing Pauls gospel takes we who are His BODY to HEAVEN.

Believing Peters gospel gives THEM an EARTHLY inheritance.

God has plenty of room in both realms for ALL of us to be UNITED under HIM. After all, His goal is to bring all things unto Himself in Christ Jesus. We will simply be serving for eternity in different locations.

See, that isnt so hard. Can you live with this explanation...you seem to understand it now...whaddaya say?

 

[stratt]

Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

This verse is reffering to jesus' work casting out demons. The jews, rejecting christ, claimed jesus recieved his power form the devil. So jesus here is reffering to satans kingdom. But notice that he says EVERY kingdom..... including the kingdom of heaven OR the kingdom of God.

So then..... what of a body divided against itself? I suppose in that case, division would be like a cancer..... spreading... causing more division.... until the kingdom cannot stand.

I love you guys!

 

[stratt]

Also i would like to ask you all..... in regards to this verse....
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Now i know the common interpretation of this verse, it is one that says that we should avoid those who preach false doctrine as the doctrines will divide the church.... but i would like to show a back ground of the verse..... and show how i arrived at a different interpretation....

The letter to rome is largely about jews and gentiles.... It goes on for many chapters along one main idea, but then the letter begins to sum itself up look at this....

(Rom_14:1-13) The Jewish converts cautioned against judging, and Gentile believers against despising one the other.
(Rom_14:14-23) And the Gentiles exhorted to take heed of giving offence in their use of indifferent things.
(Rom_15:1-7) Directions how to behave towards the weak.
(Rom_15:8-13) All to receive one another as brethren.



this brings us to chapter 16 in which paul tells the romans to accept a whole list of people...

then we have our verse....

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Notice he says doctrine and not plural doctrines.... mark them which cause divisions contrary to the doctrine... could the doctrine not be unity? We have just seen a whole list of people the romans were to accept.... (in the beggining of the chapter) followed by chapters based on unity (as we have seen)
Now compare it with the verse that follows.....

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

They serve their own belly, because they create divisions.... they are then free to recieve tithes and are made fat from their riches..... the doctrine of unity is the doctrine which was spelled out in preceding chapters, is the doctrine that is in question.

So to sum up... doesnt it make more sence that different doctrines (although not good) is not the particular doctrine reffered to in this particular instance? It is unity that he is reffering to as the doctrine?

I am not sure if i am right, but it is my understanding of the verse.

 

[timlamb]

The only gospel being preached to the nation ISRAEL was Peters gospel. When that program was set ASIDE, which the bible says it WAS, Paul was raised up with the gospel of the GRACE of God for ALL...jew and gentile alike.

Its not about what "I" say...but about what GOD has said. The Nation of Israel REJECTED Gods KINGDOM program with an earthly KING..one that was prophesied over and over. When it became clear that Israel was putting the other nations in jeopardy by NOT believing FIRST....God went to His SECRET plan that allowed for ALL men to be saved without depending on the Nation Israel. Thats whats so awesome about the MYSTERY. God had it in mind ALL ALONG...and wouldnt let mankind keep Him from redeeming them.




The Jews KNEW what their gospel was. By the time Paul came along they had either accepted it or they rejected it. When Paul was given the gospel of the GRACE of God for ALL men, those jews remaining were given the option of believing without the law. They never WERE in the Body of Christ...so they have nothing to MISS. They had unique promises and a unique calling which they alone can fulfil.

NOW, one who is jewish has to come to God the way every other unbeliever does...thru faith in the finished work of Christ. He would be placed INTO the Body of Christ thru the ONE baptism of Eph. 4:5. That baptism was NOT available for the OT saints..theirs was a water baptism that DEMONSTRATED their faith in the program God set out for THEM.

God has TWO realms ...Heaven and EARTH. Israel has to do with the earthly realm...WE, the Body of Christ , have to do with Gods re establishing His rule and reign in HEAVEN.

So they are saved either way, it just changes their destination?['quote]

YES, now you are getting it!!!! Hallelujah! Yes yes yes...salvation was provided under BOTH sets of good news or gospels. BELIEVING was the issue...and yes, the destinations are different...ONE rules on EARTH with earthly thrones and an earthly KING and KINGDOM, and we rule in the heavenlies over the angels in a heavenly Kingdom.



LOL...We are SUPPOSED to believe both of them. Both of them ARE TRUE. But only ONE of them is true FOR YOU! You arent offered the deal given to the Nation Israel, and they werent offered (before Paul) what WE have. Both are wonderful and unique and awesome.

However, God is the One who decides where we end up...LOL

Believing Pauls gospel takes we who are His BODY to HEAVEN.

Believing Peters gospel gives THEM an EARTHLY inheritance.

God has plenty of room in both realms for ALL of us to be UNITED under HIM. After all, His goal is to bring all things unto Himself in Christ Jesus. We will simply be serving for eternity in different locations.

See, that isnt so hard. Can you live with this explanation...you seem to understand it now...whaddaya say?

I'm sorry ephy, now I feel bad. I was only being sarcastic because the idea of any seperation under Gods eternal reign is unacceptable.

But if it is any consolation, I think I understand where you are comming from. But I don't understand why those Israelites who don't believe Peter, get a chance to believe Paul and go to heaven with us, isn't that like flying second class. Don't those who believe first get the good seats?

 

[eph3Nine]

I'm sorry ephy, now I feel bad. I was only being sarcastic because the idea of any seperation under Gods eternal reign is unacceptable.

Awww...well dang it. I like to take people at their word and NOT look for hidden sarcasm...so I thought you were serious.

NO ONE IS SEPARATED in Gods eternal reign! We are ALL united IN HIM. However, the nation Israel does not have the distinction of being the Body of Christ ,and the Body of Christ is never given the distinction of being Gods chosen NATION. The two are under ONE LORD, but serve Him in different DESTINATIONS.

If you think we will all be in heaven, then please show me anywhere that the Nation Israels promises and calling were heavenly in nature. They were promised the EARTH...real estate...and they were promised a KINGDOM with thrones (twelve of them) and a KING. All this takes place ON THE EARTH. Over and over God reiterates that He gives them LAND ON THE EARTH...never heaven.

If all of us will be in heaven...will the new earth be empty? God promises a new heaven and a new earth...why? Because He is the Most High God , rulerof HEAVEN and EARTH...these are the two realms He created and over which He has the right to RULE.

Satan is a squatter who has usurped Gods rule and reign in both heaven AND on the earth. The whole of YOUR bible and MINE is Gods plan to RE ESTABLISH His rightful rule in BOTH REALMS.

He will use the Nation Israel to do so on the EARTH.

He will use we , the Body of Christ, to rule and reign in HEAVEN.

Two separate groups of people, serving ONE God in differing capacities. THIS is HIS REVEALED PLAN.

But if it is any consolation, I think I understand where you are comming from. But I don't understand why those Israelites who don't believe Peter, get a chance to believe Paul and go to heaven with us, isn't that like flying second class. Don't those who believe first get the good seats?

Oh, thank you, but I dont need consoling. I am disappointed that you dont appear to see the truth, but thats ok. I will live.

As to the unbelieving Israelites who did accept Pauls message...its a matter of what program was being offered at the time as to where they ended up. During ACTS, which was the transition FROM Peters program TO Pauls NEW MYSTERY program, both programs were existing together...one phasing out and the other phasing in. By the end of Acts, Peter is OUT of commission and Paul is the head honcho.

Israels program is wonderful...its NOT a second class gig , as you suggest...but GODS specific and wonderful program to THEM. They arent going to feel slighted at not ruling in HEAVEN. THEY understood that the earth was what they were promised and were content with it, as are ALL folks who RECOGNIZE Gods revealed will for them and cooperate with God IN IT!

Do you see how you are letting your own understanding color what is actually taught in the Bible? Do you see why its important to get our information about what really IS going on FROM the Bible itself?

Its NOT a matter of those believing FIRST getting the BEST seats at all! Its a matter of BELIEVING what God revealed to THEM and fitting in with GODS Will for THEM.
Both realms are extremely important to God. He created them to RULE OVER Them. He is the MOST HIGH God, ruler of heaven and earth. NOT just heaven!!

Dont ignore the many references to BOTH of these realms in your Bible. God DOES have a plan to re establish His rightful rulership of BOTH realms...DO YOU WANT TO be involved in His plans, or go off down another road that satan has cleverly designed for you and many others, which involves IGNORING the REVEALED WILL OF GOD by NOT ACKNOWLEDGING that He HAS plans for Both realms???

 

[A Brother In Christ]

If the body of Christ is under Grace.....

why does peter in 2 peter 3:18 tell them to grow in grace if the Jews are under law?

 

[timlamb]

Ephy, read Revelation chapter 22. In the Great city,(the new jerusalem) will be the throne of God AND of the LAMB. They will be the origine of the "River of Life", as it flows from the thrones of God and of the Lamb, through the new Jerusalem. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, IN THE GREAT CITY.