• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How does this add up to your doctrine?

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
Romans 11:17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Doesn't it show that even the elect of God can be cut out for unbelief!!!
 

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
39
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
This doesn't contradict anything. Look at the parallel that Paul is speaking of: John 15:1-11

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Notice how the branches that Paul and Jesus are talking about (the ones that break off) are those who believed in vain.

1 Cor. 15:1-2

1Now I would remind you, brothers,[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Those who have believed in vain are not part of the elect, regardless of that which you will say. These are people who will believe because it's "cool" or "different". Think about "christians" converting to islam. Those people never were really christians at all if they convert to islam, or some other religion. Clearly their reasoning is simply that they don't like Christianity, so they switch! CHRISTIANITY IS NOT A RELIGION! Though people would say otherwise. The people who believed in vain never were christians in the first place. Hence, the elect cannot be cut off, but only those who have believed in vain. John 6:37

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Seriously correcting your mistake,

Randy
 
Upvote 0

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
The disciple's are the elect(branches) and Jesus warns them that if they do not remain in him, they are no good for nothing

I believe in the elect very much, but it goes much deeper than that. I believe in the called workers in the field choosen by God Those who have been predestined before the foundation of the world.

God does include with them, those that hear the gospel of their salvation having believed.

The scripture clearly shows me that only believers are guarenteed to be saved, for even the elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.

I'm just a child, who's only hope is in Jesus.

Jesus called the world and gave them a choice to believe or not to believe and the consequences for thier choice. He made the elect the messengers of that.

I believe in the the elect of God, but they are workers for the harvast.
 
Upvote 0

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
No I read John 3:16 and throughthat has set before us life and death, so choose Jesus, so that you may live.

God will show mercy on believers and condemn unbelievers as the word of God says.

God will show mercy on whom He wills and He will to show mercy on believers.

Abraham was not saved by works of the law, for there was no law. He was not saved by works at all.

He believed God and it was credited to him as righteouseness.

It was not His work that he was saved, but the belief of the works of God, who provided the sacrifice.

He had to accept it as we do Jesus in order to be save, but it was the work of the cross that we are saved by.

The wages of our sin is death, so we cannot save ourselves. The only hope we do have is Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

tigersnare

Angry Young Calvinist
Jul 8, 2003
1,358
23
42
Baton Rouge, LA
✟1,636.00
Faith
Calvinist
Unreformedbythetruth said:
for even the elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.

Those so called "elect" do not exist. These elect however do..

Romans 8
29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
 
Upvote 0

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
I praise God for the elect, if it was not for the work they were called by God to do to reach people like me, i would of never knew of the hope for the world through Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
39
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
We have a choice to choose God... ok... Have you read the bible? Is it us who bears our own faith? Is it us who makes our own faith. Nope.

Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Woah! DOUBLE IMPORTANCE THERE! What are you saying Paul? Sorry... what? did you just say... faith is not of my doing... hence not my choice? Wow!!!! THAT'S AWESOME!

Randy
 
Upvote 0

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
What is the wages of your sin.

Did you pay your wages.

No you didn't, Jesus did.

It is not your work that saved you, because it wouldn't be salvation but death.

It is a free gift, that God is offering to you, but you going to have to accept it in order to receive.

Any gift free or not, you have to accept in order to receive it.
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
39
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Unreformedbythetruth said:
What is the wages of your sin.

Did you pay your wages.

No you didn't, Jesus did.

It is not your work that saved you, because it wouldn't be salvation but death.

It is a free gift, that God is offering to you, but you going to have to accept it in order to receive.

Any gift free or not, you have to accept in order to receive it.

That's interesting, but illogical. Now, you say that we have to accept the gift from God. Ok. But if "It is not your work that saved you..." then.... why do I have to accept anythign on my behalf? Wouldn't the acceptance of something be a work in itself? You'll have to do better than that, because when you say that we have to accept the free gift of God, then you reject scripture. So you say "OK. Prove it!" No problem. John 6:29 'Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."'

What? Jesus just said that it is the work of God that you believe in Him... hmm... don't see Jesus saying that we have to accept his working in us to believe in Him.

Your response = illogical.

Randy
 
Upvote 0

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
Luke 10:2
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

Here you have the few workers(elect).

R

[BIBLE]evelation 7

144,000 Sealed

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.[/BIBLE]

Here is the harvast and where they come from.



[BIBLE]The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!" 13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

[/BIBLE]

I have no problem with the elect of God, but they are tools of God to reach the world with His love for them that He showed at the cross.

There was a closed door because of the sin of Adam, but Jesus has changed it and reopened the door and made the elect of God the messengers of it.



[BIBLE]Romans 5

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.[/BIBLE]

I still believe Jesus that God loved the world, and since He loved the world He provided a way for all men to be saved through Jesus Christ and made His elect the messengers of it.
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
39
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
OK OK... hold on a second. The elect are but the messengers of God... interesting. Well... who are the messengers of God? You will say, the elect. *sigh* vicious circle you have yourself in here, you need to get yourself out. Notice something odd about your reasoning. Aren't all believers called to be messengers of God? Think about it. Have you ever read the Gospel according to Matthew. Like... common! The great commission. Matthew 28:16-20

16Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." [ESV]

Interestingly enough... we are all called to be messengers of God. And, using your reasoning, therefore, we are all part of the elect. Hmm... It's simple reasoning. Deductive reasoning, that is.

The Believers are the messengers of God.
The Messengers of God are the elect.
So, the believers are the elect.

It's sheer logic. You are saying that there are two classes, but according to Jesus, there is but one. Therefore, according to Truth, there is but one class of believers.

Randy

P.S. Let me remind you that God is a God of reason. Isaiah 1:18

18"Come now, let us reason[a] together, says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
 
Upvote 0

rnmomof7

Legend
Feb 9, 2002
14,503
735
Western NY
✟94,487.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Unreformedbythetruth said:
The disciple's are the elect(branches) and Jesus warns them that if they do not remain in him, they are no good for nothing

I believe in the elect very much, but it goes much deeper than that. I believe in the called workers in the field choosen by God Those who have been predestined before the foundation of the world.

God does include with them, those that hear the gospel of their salvation having believed.

The scripture clearly shows me that only believers are guarenteed to be saved, for even the elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.

I'm just a child, who's only hope is in Jesus.

Jesus called the world and gave them a choice to believe or not to believe and the consequences for thier choice. He made the elect the messengers of that.

I believe in the the elect of God, but they are workers for the harvast.
(1.) The doom of the unfruitful (v. 2): They are taken away. [1.] It is here intimated that there are many who pass for branches in Christ who yet do not bear fruit. Were they really united to Christ by faith, they would bear fruit; but being only tied to him by the thread of an outward profession, though they seem to be branches, they will soon be seen to be dry ones. Unfruitful professors are unfaithful professors; professors, and no more. It might be read, Every branch that beareth not fruit in me, and it comes much to one; for those that do not bear fruit in Christ, and in his Spirit and grace, are as if they bore no fruit at all, Hos. 10:1. [2.] It is here threatened that they shall be taken away, in justice to them and in kindness to the rest of the branches. From him that has not real union with Christ, and fruit produced thereby, shall be taken away even that which he seemed to have, Lu. 8:18. Some think this refers primarily to Judas.

Matthew Henry
 
Upvote 0

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
God choose 12, to be his elect. Then you have people like mary, who where not the elect but saved.

I have no problem with limiting the elect which the scripture clearely shows, but the saved will be like the sands of the seashore.

I have no problem with you all limiting the workers, to do the work that God has prepared for them to do

To tell the world His love for them and the hope that is found in Jesus Christ

The scripture is our doctrine, if we add or take away from that, we will face the plagues discribed in the book.

I found people holding their doctrine out more than Christ, maybe it is just to lead them astray.

The scripture is a real dollar bill, and man-made doctine is a fake dollar bill.

I find the most problem with people is they study the fake dollar bill for so long,that the real dollar bill as became fake and the fake dollar bill has became the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Unreformedbythetruth

Active Member
Oct 7, 2005
28
0
57
✟15,138.00
Faith
Christian
Accepting Christ, or believing in Him, did that work pay our debt.

No it didn't, so it is still the work of the cross that saved us.

If i give you something I made, and you accepted it. Would you say look what my hands have made?

All praise, boosting, and glorifying goes to the one who did the work, not to the one who accepted the gift.



John 6:27-29




27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."


28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

There was this worker who wanted to work for a farmer. So He ask the one in charge of the work, What is the work of the farmer. The one in Charge said the work of the farmer is to pull weeds. So if He wanted to work for the farmer, He had to pull weeds. He has a choice He can walk away and not pull weeds, or he can pull weeds. It is still the work of the farmer.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,048
1,800
60
New England
✟613,708.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Unreformedbythetruth said:
Accepting Christ, or believing in Him, did that work pay our debt.

No it didn't, so it is still the work of the cross that saved us.

If i give you something I made, and you accepted it. Would you say look what my hands have made?

All praise, boosting, and glorifying goes to the one who did the work, not to the one who accepted the gift.



John 6:27-29




27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."


28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

There was this worker who wanted to work for a farmer. So He ask the one in charge of the work, What is the work of the farmer. The one in Charge said the work of the farmer is to pull weeds. So if He wanted to work for the farmer, He had to pull weeds. He has a choice He can walk away and not pull weeds, or he can pull weeds. It is still the work of the farmer.

Good Day, unreformed

I am not sure where you got this translation, but it is error.

Joh 6:28

(ALT) Therefore, they said to Him, "What shall we be doing so that we shall be working the works of God?"

(ASV) They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?

(Bishops) Then saide they vnto him: What shall we do, that we myght worke ye workes of God?

(ESV) Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

(GB) Then sayde they vnto him, What shall we doe, that we might worke the workes of God?

(GNT) eipon oun prov auton ti sbapoiwmen tpoioumen ina ergazwmeqa ta erga tou qeou

(HCSB) "What can we do to perform the works of God?" they asked.

(HOT)​




(KJV+) Then3767 said2036 they unto4314 him,846 What5101 shall we do,4160 that2443 we might work2038 the3588 works2041 of God?2316

(KJVA) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

(NASB) Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

(RSVA) Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

(Vulgate) dixerunt ergo ad eum quid faciemus ut operemur opera Dei

(YLT) They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?'

Again from the Greek:

Joh 6:28 eipon oun prov auton ti sbapoiwmen tpoioumen ina ergazwmeqa ta erga tou qeou

You my friend have a really really bad translation on your hands.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
39
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Unreformedbythetruth said:
Accepting Christ, or believing in Him, did that work pay our debt.

No it didn't, so it is still the work of the cross that saved us.

If i give you something I made, and you accepted it. Would you say look what my hands have made?

All praise, boosting, and glorifying goes to the one who did the work, not to the one who accepted the gift.



John 6:27-29




27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."


28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

There was this worker who wanted to work for a farmer. So He ask the one in charge of the work, What is the work of the farmer. The one in Charge said the work of the farmer is to pull weeds. So if He wanted to work for the farmer, He had to pull weeds. He has a choice He can walk away and not pull weeds, or he can pull weeds. It is still the work of the farmer.

Yah, I agree wth bill on this one. Translation = faulty.

Where the crap do you get that believing is the work of the "farmer" in this verse? You are making absolutely no sense at all.

Ya know what... i think YOUR doctrines are more man centered than any other doctrine ever thought of. What does God do, then? According to you, nothing. He is no longer active; He is no longer sovereign. You deny scripture in your own words. No proof and no logic. The elect are the twelve, and ONLY the twelve? Think again.

Romans 9:10-13

10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Is Jacob part of the elect? According to you... no. According to you, only the twelve are part of the elect.

Yet again, you are missing everything.

Who are the messengers of God? You will say "The twelve". Well... that's illogical. I guess we all better stop spreading the gospel becuase we don't have to... since we are not called to be messengers of God.

Acts 16:10

10And when Paul[a] had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

Woah woah woah! Who wrote the book of acts? We all know that Luke did. Who was Luke? A greek, a GENTILE. Was Luke part of the elect? According to you, no. But why in the world would God call him and Paul to preach the gospel? You just finished saying that the twelve are the ones who are the messengers of God. This would not include Luke. But Luke was also called to be a messenger of God. Hence, Luke is part of the elect. Your responses are just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo illogical and unbiblical. What you are saying is that we don't have to spread the gospel. Shame on you!

Unreformed by the truth? No. Unreformed by ignorance is more like it.

Randy
 
Upvote 0

seekingpurity047

Why am I not surprised
Apr 12, 2005
3,303
148
39
Brooklin
✟4,248.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
tigersnare said:
Would you like the "Angry Young Calvinsist" label now? ;)

Hahha... sorry tiger... it's just that... gah! How can you not see that there is but on category of true believers?

It gets on my nerves that.... he's totally contradicting himself with every sentence he types.

Randy
 
Upvote 0