How does the Reformed view defend against these scriptures?

[frienden thalord]

No it doesn't. But I'm sure you can elaborate on why you think so.

Hammster if we receive the correct understanding it will never contradict what JESUS said.
Can you please bring an example of what you meant .

 

[friend of]

1. Can a man do good works then, if he is not a Christian who is born again? No. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23).
2. Can a man want to be born again and follow instructions on "how to do it?" No, for that would be like saying that a man in a grave can desire to come out of the grave, or follow instructions on how to be made alive. It would be like trying to lure him out of the grave. "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:33).
3. Can any man "accept Christ" as his personal Savior, so that he becomes saved after that? Of course not. Accepting Christ is a good work done only by a Christian. Only AFTER God makes a person alive, can he and will he accept Christ. "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).
4. Can you "offer salvation" to anyone? That is surely impossible. One might as well offer food to a dead man than salvation to a dead sinner (Eph.2:1-2).

Now please, I would ask you to reconcile the entire concept of Free Will to these which you agree with.

 

[friend of]

T.U.L.I.P. or, The Five Points of Calvinism

I'm going off this literature. It states:

ONLY GOD CAN MAKE US ALIVE. AND GOD DOES THAT SOVEREIGNLY - WITHOUT OUR AID, WITHOUT OUR ASKING

So how you can reconcile Free Will to the teachings of Calvin is what I'd like to know.

 

[Hammster]

Because of the concept of Irresistible Grace, which you yourself just claimed to ascribe to.

You'll have to actually elaborate here. Why do you think effectual grace means the Reformed deny the essence of faith in things unseen?

 

[Tree of Life]

Really. Really?

The entire reformed view is that those who will follow the Lord have no choice in the matter.

This is not really the reformed view. But it is a common misconception of the reformed view!

 

[Hammster]

Can a man do good works then, if he is not a Christian who is born again? No. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23).

Isn't believing in Christ a good thing?

 

[friend of]

This is not really the reformed view. But it is a common misconception of the reformed view!

Why don't you explain it to me then.

 

[Tree of Life]

My contention is that if any could be lost, than so too could any be saved.

It seems you assume that by "any" Peter means "any person". However, if "any" corresponds to "you" in the same verse then "any" would mean "any one of God's people".

What scripture do you have to back this up?

I cited a parallel verse John 11:51-52.

The use of would and let both imply a decision on behalf of one to accept Christ by their own volition.

I don't deny this. And neither does Reformed theology.

The sacrament of the Lord's supper signifies a concerted effort on part of Man and God together. Calvinism denies that man has any part in this relationship, as it states that God is wholly responsible for Man's Faith in it's entirety. Man has no part in co-creation, because God does it all, as far as saving Faith is concerned.

This is partly what Reformed theology teaches and partly a misunderstanding. It's very common to misunderstand Reformed theology in this way.

 

[friend of]

Isn't believing in Christ a good thing?

Why are you ignoring my other posts?

 

[Tree of Life]

Why don't you explain it to me then.

The Reformed view would say that God, by the power of his Holy Spirit, renews the will of the elect and makes them want to freely choose him. The elect then freely choose God of their own volition. We choose God because we want to, not because we're forced to.

 

[Hammster]

Why are you ignoring my other posts?

I'm not. Can you please answer the question?

 

[friend of]

However, if "any" corresponds to "you" in the same verse then "any" would mean "any one of God's people".

According to Tree of Life, "any" can be substituted with "you". I warned that I would hold reservations over eisegesis in my OP.

I cited a parallel verse John 11:51-52.

Thanks for actually engaging in the discourse.

I don't deny this. And neither does Reformed theology.

It actually contradicts the point in TULIP which speaks about Irresistible Grace.

If Grace is Irresistible than Faith is a matter of God's own doing and not of Man. It is not then Faith in things unseen, it is God witnessing to Himself. Please respond to this point if anything.

This is partly what Reformed theology teaches and partly a misunderstanding. It's very common to misunderstand Reformed theology in this way.

........

Okay...

Then Clarify!??

 

[friend of]

I'm not. Can you please answer the question?

You ignored posts #22 and #23. I'll happily continue to answer your questions if you actually reciprocate.

 

[Hammster]

You ignored posts #22 and #23. I'll happily continue to answer your questions if you actually reciprocate.

My question quotes the first part of 22. It's important for understanding what you want to know.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

I agree that Calvinism (or the idea that God regenerates a person before they choose God) is wrong. It is forced love. But we know love is not forced. True love is when two parties both agree to love each other of their own free will choice. It's how loving marriages work.

Anyways, the only two verses I think appear to be Calvinistic (but are not) are Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. God intentionally leaves names of those who have worshiped the beast out of the book of life. Obviously the book of life is that book whereby Christ died for that person. But these guys did not even have their name written in the Lamb's book since the foundation of the world. That is how bad these people are to God. They didn't even have a chance at salvation because God knew they were rotten apples. But they are the exception the rule in 1 John 2:2. The rest of the world Jesus died for. Christ died for all men so to offer them the free gift of salvation. Babies that die are saved by Christ's sacrifice. A name is blotted out of the book of life when a baby grows up and reaches the age of accountability and they sin. Only through Jesus (and their repentance towards Him) can a person's name reappear again.

There is no such thing as God making some to believe and God making some to be damned. That is complete an utter non sense.


...

 

[Tree of Life]

According to Tree of Life, "any" can be substituted with "you". I warned that I would hold reservations over eisegesis in my OP.

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Who is the "you" in the first part of the verse? Isn't Peter referring to "you believers"? So, then, it's not a stretch to understand the next pronoun "any" as a reference to "any of you" and the adjective "all" as also modifying "you" ("all of you believers").

Thanks for actually engaging in the discourse.

Thanks for inviting me to do so.

It actually contradicts the point in TULIP which speaks about Irresistible Grace.

If Grace is Irresistible than Faith is a matter of God's own doing and not of Man. It is not then Faith in things unseen, it is God witnessing to Himself. Please respond to this point if anything.

You think it contradicts TULIP but no one who holds to TULIP or teaches TULIP believes that it contradicts. So where does the problem lie? Perhaps you've misunderstood the implications of TULIP.

Okay...

Then Clarify!??

No reformed teacher believes that people are totally passive in their salvation or that salvation happens to them in contradiction to their will or even without their will being involved. Our free choice to embrace Jesus is a very important part of our salvation and any good reformed teacher would have no problem saying this.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

1 Timothy 2:3 Lexicon: This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Timothy 2:4 Lexicon: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:5 Lexicon: For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:6 Lexicon: who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Peter 3:9 Lexicon: The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 Lexicon: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Matthew 22:14 Lexicon: "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 10:38 Lexicon: "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Luke 9:23 Lexicon: And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Mark 8:34 Lexicon: And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

This is the truth in the Greek itself. God bless.

 

[Hammster]

1 Timothy 2:3 Lexicon: This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Timothy 2:4 Lexicon: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:5 Lexicon: For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:6 Lexicon: who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Peter 3:9 Lexicon: The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 Lexicon: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Matthew 22:14 Lexicon: "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 10:38 Lexicon: "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Luke 9:23 Lexicon: And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Mark 8:34 Lexicon: And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

This is the truth in the Greek itself. God bless.

Those are in the Bible? I bet if the reformers had seen those, they would have had a different view.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Those are in the Bible? I bet if the reformers had seen those, they would have had a different view.

The Hebrew and Greek show the true meanings behind the words of Scripture we read in English.

 

[Hammster]

The Hebrew and Greek show the true meanings behind the words of Scripture we read in English.

No doubt. I bet those reformers knew nothing about that.