How does one who does not believe in God define what is good?

Ken-1122

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In that case, are there any assurances that our determinations won't shift? Is there any way to remove such moral power out of the hands of humanity so that we don't devour ourselves by our own self determination?
What proof do you have that removing moral power out of the hands of humanity will improve things? Such a thing has never happened.
When I speak of authority, I am speaking of one who occupies a certain position. In regards to morality, it would have to be a being who owns the rights to such things and is therefore in a position to judge. If morality is a human owned concept, then humans are the moral authority.
What proof do you have that morality is not a human owned concept?
When I speak of divinity, for the sake of argument, I am not specifically pointing in any direction, I am simply referring to that which is greater than humanity in such a way that we owe our being to it.
Greater than humanity? By whose standard? I know of no moral being that humanity has determined to be greater than we are; do you?
Disagreements may be understandable, but the nature of authority, in the philosophical sense, is that it is the authority, and all disagreements are illegitimate if they stem from a source that is not authoritative.
Aren’t those just empty words without enforcement? What’s to prevent me from proclaiming myself the moral authority and all who disagree illegitimate? How is this different?
If something is truly divine, I would assume that whether we agree or disagree, it should not be up to us to decide, because it would then be up to us to judge such things.
But we do judge those things. As humans we judge everything.
This is a good question, although I would object to the term "compel" when it comes to the God I worship.
What’s wrong with the term compel? If the God you worshipped communicated with me in a way I could understand and convince me he is morally superior to me, I may be compelled to respect your God as my moral authority. However as it is, I have no communication with your God only with people like you who have no credibility in my view.
Regardless, I believe that such an authority could foster respect if it acts in a way that is worthy of respect.
If I have no way to communicate with your God, how am I supposed to know how he acts? The only thing I see are people with obvious agendas and no credibility who claim he acts this way or that way; no actual proof of how he acts.
It is not merely about whether we agree or disagree with it, but whether its position over us is legitimate and its governance over us does not leave us as poor reflections of itself.
Again; without enforcement, or communication I see no way it could possibly have governance over us. Do you? If so; how?
 
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Tayla

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As an atheist I define what I believe to be good by using morality.
What are morality? I define morality as the ability to understand the consequences of actions and how they affect me and my neighbor. And it starts from the position that what is helpful for me and my neighbor is good, and what is harmful to me and my neighbor is bad.
Yes, very well stated. Goodness doesn't exist without having people or other conscious creatures to experience the effects of the goodness.

Kind of like: if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound if there is no one to hear it?

Like the forms of Plato vs. Aristotle. Plato's forms are abstract whereas Aristotle's are embedded within the object itself. Some want to claim that goodness is "out there" floating in the ether somewhere waiting for someone to pull it into their mind via faith or something.
 
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Tayla

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As a Buddhist, I define "good" as that which decreases suffering for one's self & for others.
As a non-Buddhist, I would add: "and which increases the enjoyment/satisfaction/pleasure/joy/etc of self or others."

On a related note; I think the essential characteristic of what is called evil, is that it causes suffering for self or others (including any conscious creature). Without suffering, something is not evil.
 
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Tayla

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In general, though, people have a pretty solid grasp on what is good in broader categories. We derive that ability from countless ancestors who cooperated with each other as a social species.
Long before we acquired the ability to understand symbols, our distant relations were already reacting positively to pro-social behaviour. You can observe it in other, decidedly less intelligent species.
Yes.

I think the reason such things as the conscious experience of social norms exist is because the universe allows for such things to be. Ultimately it is living brains that generate such experiences, but only because it is possible for them to do so. Some might call this "being created in the image of God", but I don't see how that explains anything.
 
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Tayla

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As an athiest, I define good as that which improves the wellbeing of thinking creatures, or reduces the harm to them.
I wonder if you would expand this to include not inflicting suffering on conscious creatures capable of experiencing it?
 
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Tayla

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Taxing my neighbor to provide things for me.
Shoplifting
Killing one's spouse to collect the insurance money.
Hit and run.
Giving money to a charity organization .
Giving someone your only food because they are hungry too.
Making a good salary working for a non profit that one knows is is fraudulent

I would like to know what the process is that you use to decide which is good and which is bad in these situations.
A good list of specific scenarios. I'll bet if someone took a poll on each of these, whether they are moral/ethical or not, there would be no difference in the answers for religious vs non-religious. A certain percentage of the population would answer yes or no with no difference for religion.
 
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Tayla

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"Do no harm" pretty much sums it up. Most normal people who have not been desensitized feel uncomfortable with they cause harm to another, so they have a few formidable years to determine right and wrong.
Yes. Determining whether or not an action will harm someone doesn't require God providing the answer. The human mind can figure it out because it has that capability.
 
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ananda

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As a non-Buddhist, I would add: "and which increases the enjoyment/satisfaction/pleasure/joy/etc of self or others."
Yes, that would be the flip side of the same coin, or the opposite pole of the same spectrum, so I am in agreement.

On a related note; I think the essential characteristic of what is called evil, is that it causes suffering for self or others (including any conscious creature). Without suffering, something is not evil.
I agree.
 
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Tayla

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I guess what I am trying to say is, is such a thing good because we have made it so, or were we made for such a thing as good?
I wonder why this question needs answering or why it is relevant to the topic of morality. Humans have the capability to sense whether or not something is moral/ethical or not, and that is all that is needed in order to develop our moral sensibility.

I agree that the universe, that reality as it is; that it provides for this capability in the functioning human brain. I don't have to explain its source beyond that which can be measured (such as which neurons are involved).
 
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Tayla

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Basically, this definition of goodness seems to suggest that all it is is an adherence to a subjective goal. Why is X good? because it furthers the subjective goal of human survival and/or flourishing, and though the goal is something we can all agree with, the christian wants the acknowledgement that in the absence of a divine authority, what is it that allows us to ground our notion that humans are valuable apart from our subjective desires?
It is a fact the humans are the way they are, the way you have described. What more of an answer is needed? Does providing a non-provable explanation for this phenomenon really add anything to our knowledge of the facts? Shouldn't we be content with knowing what is actually knowable?

For example, from the world of physics. What good does it do to try to explain why matter, energy, entropy, and etc exist. All we can know is that they do exist and and how they work.
 
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Tayla

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What proof do you have that removing moral power out of the hands of humanity will improve things? Such a thing has never happened.
Yes. Removing things from the hands of one person just means that someone worse will grab it.
 
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R.J. Aldridge

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What proof do you have that removing moral power out of the hands of humanity will improve things? Such a thing has never happened.

What proof do you have that morality is not a human owned concept?

I believe that humans have the faculties to handle things like morality, but we are not always good stewards of such things. Concepts like a constitution or a bill of rights act to remove, in part, the power of human control so as to safeguard our shared values, taking them out of the reach of those who might abuse them. In a broader sense, the nature of good and evil can be rendered meaningless if its human authors desire to do so. This is why I view morality as something humans have stewardship over, but not ownership.

You might think of morality like civilization itself. Humans have built some incredible things and civilizations exist because everyone pays into it by doing their part on behalf of the collective values, but humans cannot claim responsibility for the raw materials we all take for granted. We cannot claim ownership of the earth as if we invented it, likewise, we cannot claim ownership of good and evil as if we created them for the purpose of regulating social behavior. Either our social behavior is built on a foundation of morality or morality is built on a foundation of social behavior. If morality is something we align ourselves with, I would say the former is true and morality is not ours to shape. If we align morality with ourselves, then the latter is true and we can claim authority over it.

Greater than humanity? By whose standard? I know of no moral being that humanity has determined to be greater than we are; do you?

Humanity is quite good at elevating itself to Godhood in our imagination. Maybe it's because we recognize some sort of hierarchical standard of values that we fall short of.

Aren’t those just empty words without enforcement? What’s to prevent me from proclaiming myself the moral authority and all who disagree illegitimate? How is this different?

Those would be empty words without enforcement. Presumably the authority, the "author", would have the credentials to justify such a claim.

But we do judge those things. As humans we judge everything.

This is true, but my point was not to claim that humans are incapable of judging what is or is not divine, but rather that human judgement cannot make something divine. Divinity is not at the mercy of human judgement, therefore if anyone disagrees that something is divine, it is not humans who have the last word, it is the divine itself.

What’s wrong with the term compel? If the God you worshipped communicated with me in a way I could understand and convince me he is morally superior to me, I may be compelled to respect your God as my moral authority. However as it is, I have no communication with your God only with people like you who have no credibility in my view.

Respect out of compulsion can imply a relationship that is not based on respect at all but upon the lack of another option. God wants you to respect Him because you want to not because you have to or because of purely intellectual reasons. As far as your lack of communication with God, I am trying to communicate with you in a way you would understand, but I don't know you or how you think. So, I am trying to understand your perspective. Are you doing the same in regards to me? Perhaps God values inquiry on your part, like a desire to understand Him. Like I mentioned, the God I worship does not compel respect, but He will put in the leg work if we make an effort.

If I have no way to communicate with your God, how am I supposed to know how he acts? The only thing I see are people with obvious agendas and no credibility who claim he acts this way or that way; no actual proof of how he acts.

When I wish to communicate with God I put myself in a position to listen. I read His word in order to find out who He is, what He has done, and how He acts. If your claim is that this record is not credible, show me where.

Again; without enforcement, or communication I see no way it could possibly have governance over us. Do you? If so; how?

I wouldn't expect God to show His governance over you because perhaps you are governed by something else. I have willingly placed myself under His governance, and like a seed will sprout and grow and eventually produce fruit, I expect that if His governance is real, then I should see the fruit manifest in my life.
 
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R.J. Aldridge

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It is a fact the humans are the way they are, the way you have described. What more of an answer is needed? Does providing a non-provable explanation for this phenomenon really add anything to our knowledge of the facts? Shouldn't we be content with knowing what is actually knowable?

For example, from the world of physics. What good does it do to try to explain why matter, energy, entropy, and etc exist. All we can know is that they do exist and and how they work.
I guess I am someone who likes to dig deeper into these things. As a cognitive creature, I am capable of recognizing that there is a vast universe out there while I am stuck on the earth. There is something beyond my reach and I enjoy venturing into the unknown. To cut myself off from the investigation of the "why" is to reject the scientific pursuit and willingly enslave my mind, confining it to my own little cell where I know every inch and I don't dare look outside for something new.
 
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VirOptimus

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I guess I am someone who likes to dig deeper into these things. As a cognitive creature, I am capable of recognizing that there is a vast universe out there while I am stuck on the earth. There is something beyond my reach and I enjoy venturing into the unknown. To cut myself off from the investigation of the "why" is to reject the scientific pursuit and willingly enslave my mind, confining it to my own little cell where I know every inch and I don't dare look outside for something new.
Religion is not science.
 
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R.J. Aldridge

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Religion is not science.
Are you characterizing my desire to learn and investigate the "why" of a matter a religious ideology and not a scientific one? If science doesn't ask why, then science is a religion with its own rigid dogma.
 
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VirOptimus

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Are you characterizing my desire to learn and investigate the "why" of a matter a religious ideology and not a scientific one? If science doesn't ask why, then science is a religion with its own rigid dogma.
Science only describes physical reality.
 
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R.J. Aldridge

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Science only describes physical reality.
Does that mean that science is limited and any non-physical realities must be dealt with by other means? Or does that mean that only physical reality exist because science, which can only deal with physical reality, says so?
 
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VirOptimus

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Does that mean that science is limited and any non-physical realities must be dealt with by other means? Or does that mean that only physical reality exist because science, which can only deal with physical reality, says so?
It means just what it says.

Science does not deal with the supernatural or metaphysics.

Wheter that exist is belief, ie religion.
 
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