bluedart,
Not so. It is an obvious fact that in countries that are predominantly Muslim (or other religion) that high percentages of the children follow the same path. Any sociologist can tell you that. Even clients of mine (I'm a counselor) who hang out with alcoholics are more prone to relapse when around these people. If we just go through life without using our heads (logic) we will be prone to many disasterous decisions. And society or the world as the Bible calls it does affect us. For that reason Paul tells us to not conform to the ways of this world (Romans 12:2).
I think there has been a misunderstading. We adopt the discourses we have been born into, this is obvious.
My comment "I think this is wrong. This way, a person ends up believing in the reasonability of his arguments for beliving in God, but doesn't believe in God per se"
was addressed to your saying
"We need to really question what we believe and seek out the evidence. That is what takes us from blind faith (which is dangerous) to faith based on reason."
Unless your point here is that of being God's elect -- that these people will turn to Him regardless of what society they were born into.
And if it wasn't for logic we would all still be waiting for the tooth fairy or Santa Clause on Christmas.
No. You don't stop believing in the TF or SC because of logic. You stop believing in them because of common sense. This is something completely different and socially conditioned.
God gave us a mind we shouldn't let it go to waste!
Do you believe in predestination and exclusivistic election?
When I talk about faith with reason I am just saying don't let your faith be blind. There are so many people who don't use logic and reason and join cults and end up dead on the 10 o'clock news. I think we can all agree that it would have been good if they done some more thinking and checking.
I don't think people joiniing "cults" has anything to do with the lack of logic or faulty reason per se. Mostly, they are unhappy, and seek a quick way out of their misery. The best one could say is that they lack common sense.
Even what you are doing (seeking and asking questions) is using your God given brain and reason. You don't appear to me to be blindly making decisions. That's all I'm saying.
Desperation leads to desperate matters ... -- hence the "blindly making decisions".
Even if there is evidence (outward signs) for anything when you have hundreds of signs it can be quite compelling.
Yes, compelling if you act on common sense.
See, I don't think "evidence of God" and "sign of God" are the same thing. A "sign of God" is somehting personally accessible only to you and you precisely on the condition that you are honeslty seeking a sign from God; while "evidence of God" would be something accessible to all. For something to be accessible to all, all would have to be honestly seeking a sign from God, in effect, they would have to be unified in spirit, which we are not, hence no objective evidence of God.
And even if evidence is finite, it can still be helpful and compelling. That's why it is used in court rooms.
It is never finite! We do not know what we do not know ...
On your third point you are absolutely correct. No evidence is needed to have faith in God. Someone could place their faith in Christ with no evidence and find God. It is the people who are not so fortunate that I am concerned about.
They need love and help, not "evidence of God".
We all can be mislead and many of us may want to make sure that at the very least what we believe in doesn't contradict itself.
If a person can be mislead, then this person's faith wasn't right to begin with, and it's better such a faith was destroyed.
If the faith was right and the person ws mislead still, then we surmise it happened so with a reason.
"How can that be irrelevant?!
How can that be irrelevant?"
Because it doesn't change the fact that we are loved by God.
If I do not know something, then I cannot consciously, repsonsibly act on it or towards it. This is why I must know at least some things.
I think I already answered this question. Evidence and reason only help in the making of the decision to believe. I cannot prove without a doubt that God exists or that Jesus is God. I still have to demonstrate faith and this faith is in God.
Then you are still clinging on to evidence, and think faith is based on evidence.
To whom do you have to prove that God exists, and why do you feel called to do so?
I wrote a letter on this topic this morning to someone, and I think it is good. Let me know if you'd like to read it and I'll pm it to you.
"What is the proof that one has received the Holy Spirit?"
Very difficult to explain ... I might mess it up. You have to take the red pill and see what happens.
No. This is not good enough.
Well we may need to agree to disagree on that one. Morpheus did say "there is no turning back ... you stay in wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."
Neo made a choice to seek the truth and he trusted (had faith) that Morpheus had the answers. He chose to get in the car and not turn Morpheus in to Smith when interrogated and believed that Morpheus was not a terrorist. He was putting things together from the moment he followed the white rabbit. Then Trinity new everything about him, Morpheus new the building he worked at so well. Neo used his head and reason and it helped him to trust Morpheus.
And in the end of it all, Neo turns out to be the bad one, knowing more than everyone else!
NO. Already answered this too. Faith not based on evidence but it helps.
I think outsiders should be told this more often. Instead, they are expected to have faith based on trusting historic evidence.
As I said evidence is not necessary but may help.
The path of "evidence" is a common one, and it is done to procure what is actually a non-intended side-effect, namely faith.
