How does one get "born-again"?

[Lockheed]

I've never met a person who genuinely, completely thought they were sinless, have you? Even the most devout pagan, even the animist, even the atheist knows they have sinned, if not against God, then against other people.

You said: "It is by the Spirit that we learn that we are sinners in need of a savior." Now you say every one knows they're sinners.

Don't most people think that they're "good enough" to get to heaven?

How is that possible when you just admitted that the Holy Spirit plays a role in sinners coming to faith since "by the Spirit that we learn that we are sinners in need of a savior"?

Why does the Holy Spirit have to tell men that they're sinners in need of a savior if "Born into each one of us is the desire to know God and be accepted by God"?

You can't see the diffence between those two?

Can't one have a desire to be accepted by someone without knowing why they aren't accepted?

It's possible, sure, but is that what the Bible says? The Bible says that "no one seeks for God"... I'm still wondering why you claim otherwise.

 

[ZiSunka]

You said: "It is by the Spirit that we learn that we are sinners in need of a savior." Now you say every one knows they're sinners.

Don't most people think that they're "good enough" to get to heaven?

I'm not trying to negate the work of the Holy Spirit, so don't twist my words to make it look like I am. Everyone does know they are sinners, but not everyone knows he/she needs a savior. And I don't think most people do think they are good enough to get into heaven, let alone to have a relationship with God. They are just hoping their good outweighs their bad.

It's possible, sure, but is that what the Bible says? The Bible says that "no one seeks for God"... I'm still wondering why you claim otherwise.

It also says, "Seek the Lord while He may be found."

 

[ZiSunka]

De 4:29 - Show Context But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. 1Ch 16:10 - Show Context Glory in His holy name; Let the hearts of those rejoice who seek the Lord! 1Ch 16:11 - Show Context Seek the Lord and His strength; Seek His face evermore! 1Ch 22:19 - Show Context Now set your heart and your soul to seek the Lord your God. Therefore arise and build the sanctuary of the Lord God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the Lord and the holy articles of God into the house that is to be built for the name of the Lord."1Ch 28:9 - Show Context "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever. 2Ch 11:16 - Show Context And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord God of their fathers. 2Ch 12:14 - Show Context And he did evil, because he did not prepare his heart to seek the Lord. 2Ch 14:4 - Show Context He commanded Judah to seek the Lord God of their fathers, and to observe the law and the commandment. 2Ch 15:2 - Show Context And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: "Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.2Ch 16:12 - Show Context And in the thirty-ninth year of his reign, Asa became diseased in his feet, and his malady was severe; yet in his disease he did not seek the Lord, but the physicians. Ps 105:4 - Show Context Seek the Lord and His strength; Seek His face evermore! Lockheed, you took one sentence out of context and made it the central verse of your whole thesis. We do seek the Lord, we must seek the Lord, He wants us to seek Him.

 

[Lockheed]

Rom 3:11
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;


Is the Bible contradictory or unclear? Or perhaps there is more to both sets of passages that needs expressing?

Just because one finds verses in the Bible where God commands people to seek for Him, does it mean that unbelieving, rebellious individuals can, or are those commands to the already believing whose hearts were opened by God?

Or are they like the Law, which commands perfect obedience that men cannot accomplish because of their sinful states? Thus God commands "seek Me" but Rom 3:11 says "no one seeks for God".

Unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[ksen]

Ok I said I get born again when God sees my faith. I didn't think the third option was right at all till I realized 40 odd percent of people had gone for it. Then I realized, no there is nothing I do in the born again process. That is God's work. (By the way I'm about to be blasted for being Arminian again.) But what on earth, should we all sit around and say, bless God, its not my faith that'll save me. Of course not, its God's grace, but faith is the channel. Do you see what I mean. Without faith you cannot be born again so in a sense both 2 and 3 are right.

O yes, but I believe faith is a gift of God in the first place. Eph 2:8 So in the end, we need faith to be saved but 'Salvation is of the Lord.'

Whose faith is it?

• I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Gal 2:20 (KJV)

 

[ksen]

Believing is not a deed, nor is it a work. God doesn't force salvation on anyone, He lets us freely choose to be His or to turn away from Him. What kind of God would force people to be saved against their will?

Calvinism doesn't teach that anyone is saved against their will. It also doesn't teach that God won't save some who want to be saved.

 

[ZiSunka]

Calvinism doesn't teach that anyone is saved against their will. It also doesn't teach that God won't save some who want to be saved.

I don't see how anyone can know they are saved if it is something that God does TO us and doesn't involve us at all.

For people who believe in calvinism, how do you know you are saved??

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't see how anyone can know they are saved if it is something that God does TO us and doesn't involve us at all.

For people who believe in calvinism, how do you know you are saved??

Good Day, LambsLove

His spirit testifies with our spirit, that we are the sons of God.

If your salvation and your state of being saved is dependant on your involvement, how do you know you did it right?

How do you know with in the things that you do you are saved?

Did God invole you when it came to your abilty to breathe the air, or did he "do" that to you?

Luk 12:32"Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

It is God's work according to his good pleasure that we "will"

Phi 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ZiSunka]

His spirit testifies with our spirit, that we are the sons of God.

So if you "feel" saved, you are saved?

 

[ZiSunka]

If your salvation and your state of being saved is dependant on your involvement, how do you know you did it right?

Do it right? Jesus already "did" it right. All I have to do is accept in faith.

How do you know with in the things that you do you are saved?

Huh? I don't have a clue what you are asking. Can you rephrase it?

Did God invole you when it came to your abilty to breathe the air, or did he "do" that to you?

Well, yeah, I guess I do have the responsibility to breathe, since God programmed me to breathe, but I have control over whether I do it or not. Haven't you ever heard of people who asphixiated themselves to death?

 

[BBAS 64]

So if you "feel" saved, you are saved?

Good Day, Lambslove

Do not know that "feel" is in that verse.

Bill

 

[ZiSunka]

His spirit testifies with our spirit, that we are the sons of God.

So what does this mean?

 

[Simon_Templar]

Because "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." I didn't make myself His ally first... He reconciled me and gave me a new heart and new spirit, where before I had a spirit that was hostile toward Him.

If my salvation was based on my doing anything even "accept(ing) God's offer" I'd be lost. Instead, my salvation is based on Christ's accomplished work on the cross.

The Bible doesn't ever use the language "accept God's offer of salvation", instead it says "God commands men everywhere to repent..." but "no one seeks for God." Though God commands men to repent, they cannot do so unless He first opens their hearts and gives them His Spirit. Therefore it is evident that if I am saved it was God who saved me, while I was a hostile enemy toward Him. (Rom 5:10, Col 1:21)

much of this argument simply boils down to semantics. Wether you say, "accept his offer of salvation" or "obey his command to repent" there is little difference. the anti-works salvation doctrines common in today's church rely upon redefining the concept of "works" to include things that it did not include in scriptural context.
First I must say that its clear from scripture that we do not come to God unless he first calls us by his Holy Spirit. We are not capable of acknoledging him without the working of the Holy Spirit convicting us and calling us to him. However, To define human response to the call of God as "works" is unscriptural. God doesn't work us like puppets, and he doesn't do everything for us.. he wants us to learn and grow, but he knows that we aren't capable of doing what we need to do ourselves. Thus he takes us, like a parent holding up a toddler so the child can practice walking. It is God who is really enabling, and doing the work, but we have to go along and obey and accept. This kind of response is not "works based salvation" its what the bible tells us to do.

 

[brotherjim]

. . . To define human response to the call of God as "works" is unscriptural. . . .

True.

If I hit my finger with a hammer, I am guaranteed to respond somehow, some way. Even if I wince and grit my teeth and manage to hold back those unclean words I once use to say, I will still bring forth some response--and of course God knows exactly what the response in my heart was.

I love the story in Acts of when Paul preached at Mar's hill, for it concluded with three possible responses to the anointed Word and invitation of God, only one of which was eternally profitable. But each listener did no doubt respond, whether in deed and/or word or but secretly within their heart and mind: the anointed Word beckons such by its very nature, and even the avoidance/ignoring of a response is a/the response, the Holy Ghost Himself rejected (by default??).

brotherjim


"An adulterous generation seeks after a sign."

 

[GreenEyedLady]

The Bible doesn't ever use the language "accept God's offer of salvation", instead it says "God commands men everywhere to repent..." but "no one seeks for God." Though God commands men to repent, they cannot do so unless He first opens their hearts and gives them His Spirit. Therefore it is evident that if I am saved it was God who saved me, while I was a hostile enemy toward Him. (Rom 5:10, Col 1:21)

I have been reading throught this thread. Your ideas are intresting.
I thought I read either here or on some other thread that you said, no where in the bible does it talk about anyone seeking God. I am confused by this as many in the OT seeked God without thier hearts being "opened" by God with the Holy Spirit. Am I missing somthing here?


1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

2 Chronicles 12:14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

 

[BBAS 64]

So what does this mean?

Good Day, LambsLove

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:

Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

The ones that are led by the Spirit are the sons of god, the ones that are of God hear His word, those who are not lead do not hear because they are of the devil. Jn# 8

Those that are led are free, for the Son will set you free indeed, if he does not set you free you will die in your sin as a slave. We who the Son sets free are adopted, others are not they have not been led.

Hope that helps,

Bill

 

[oworm]

I have been reading throught this thread. Your ideas are intresting.
I thought I read either here or on some other thread that you said, no where in the bible does it talk about anyone seeking God. I am confused by this as many in the OT seeked God without thier hearts being "opened" by God with the Holy Spirit. Am I missing somthing here?

He was talking about people seeking salvation in and of themselve outside of Gods effectual call

1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

This is an exhortation to Gods covenant people

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

This is an exhortation to Gods covenant people

2 Chronicles 12:14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

He "prepared not his heart" because he wasnt able to by virtue of his evilness!

Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

They that "seek the Lord" are they that know Him already by virtue of Gods revelation. That is why they "understand all things"

 

[Lockheed]

much of this argument simply boils down to semantics. Wether you say, "accept his offer of salvation" or "obey his command to repent" there is little difference. the anti-works salvation doctrines common in today's church rely upon redefining the concept of "works" to include things that it did not include in scriptural context.

No there is a big difference. No one can "accept" or "obey His command" to repent without first being made alive.

First I must say that its clear from scripture that we do not come to God unless he first calls us by his Holy Spirit. We are not capable of acknoledging him without the working of the Holy Spirit convicting us and calling us to him.

Amen.

However, To define human response to the call of God as "works" is unscriptural.

The human response is in reaction to God's response. Faith is not a work, however, the obedience that follows faith is. One is not saved by the fruit, but by the tree.

God doesn't work us like puppets, and he doesn't do everything for us.. he wants us to learn and grow, but he knows that we aren't capable of doing what we need to do ourselves. Thus he takes us, like a parent holding up a toddler so the child can practice walking. It is God who is really enabling, and doing the work, but we have to go along and obey and accept. This kind of response is not "works based salvation" its what the bible tells us to do.

More than merely enabling... God regenerates us. He gives us a new heart and a new spirit.

 

[Lockheed]

I have been reading throught this thread. Your ideas are intresting.
I thought I read either here or on some other thread that you said, no where in the bible does it talk about anyone seeking God. I am confused by this as many in the OT seeked God without thier hearts being "opened" by God with the Holy Spirit. Am I missing somthing here?

The Law demands perfect obedience, just because no one can (except our Lord) keep the Law perfectly as it demands, doesn't mean God didn't intend it to be so.

Some folks think that because God gave the Law, He must have intended us to actually keep it (in and of ourselves).

Now, I'm not saying YOU'RE saying this, I'm making a connection between this understanding and what you're wondering about.

Just like the Law is a perfect demand, part of that perfect demand is "seek Me" and because of sin, no one keeps the first commandment perfectly. Thus "no one seeks for God".

Secondly, God does tell those whom He has regenerated to "seek Me" as well, those who have the Spirit of God do desire to follow the Son.

1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Written to believers or unbelievers?

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Written to believers or unbelievers?

2 Chronicles 12:14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

Was this person a believer or unbeliever?

Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Evil = unbeliever
seeker of the Lord = believers.