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There was a thread a while back entitled "Belief not a choice?" and several atheists in that thread insisted that people only come to believe things by evaluating evidence. So I thought I'd extend that into a syllogism and see if it floats.
1. People only come to believe something by evaluating evidence.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, People who are Christians only came to believe that God exists by evaluating evidence.
Is the above a sound argument? If not, why not?
There was a thread a while back entitled "Belief not a choice?" and several atheists in that thread insisted that people only come to believe things by evaluating evidence. So I thought I'd extend that into a syllogism and see if it floats.
1. People only come to believe something by evaluating evidence.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, People who are Christians only came to believe that God exists by evaluating evidence.
Is the above a sound argument? If not, why not?
The purpose of the law is to show us we are unable to follow it. It exposes sin.The Ten Commandments contain excellent ways to live one's life. Does that mean people who break them are good or bad?
Then tell me why David, Joshua, and many more are revered. When they were killing, stealing other people's lands, possessions, etc.
I live my life closer to the Ten Commandments than many people the bible praises. And this to me is what a Christian is.
Thanks to all for responding. I agree with all of you who believe premise 1 is faulty and that the argument is unsound.
I thought I'd reference Wikipedia to define what is meant by "evidence".
"Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. "
"Types of legal evidence include testimony, documentary evidence, and physical evidence."
You can get more details from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence
As I said earlier, I remember my mom and dad telling me that Santa was real and I believed it. Also, I might meet someone and they introduce them self as Steve and I have no reason to doubt them, so I believe it. In like manner, the Holy Spirit may speak to a Christian and reveal a truth. Or my sense of seeing tells me that I see a car...I simply believe that and have no reason to think that I may be imagining things. I have no reason to doubt what I perceive is reality. I think all of these examples could be grouped into a kind of belief known as a "properly basic belief".
I also think that we can come to believe something through sound logical argument. I'm going to assume that no one here would dispute that.
So I'd like to modify p1 from the original found in the OP and see if you think it fixes the argument.
1. People come to believe something by evaluating evidence, logical arguments, or properly basic beliefs.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, people who are Christians came to believe that God exists by (everything listed in p1).
But if you do not agree with my modified argument, please reply with how you would modify p1 and thus make the argument sound.
Thank you my Christian friend. I think I took that into account when I included a "properly basic belief" in p1. I believe that just as a person reveals to me a truth about himself (such as "Hi, my name is Steve") and I accept it as a "properly basic belief", so does the Holy Spirit reveal truths to Christians (spiritually, as you point out)(such as "Jesus is the son of God") and we accept those as "properly basic beliefs" also. Both are persons revealing information to other persons.I'd say you are closer to the truth, but you are forgetting the most important thing. God gives people faith. God reveals Himself to people. It is spiritual.
My perceptions are not infallible. Are yours?Thanks to all for responding. I agree with all of you who believe premise 1 is faulty and that the argument is unsound.
I thought I'd reference Wikipedia to define what is meant by "evidence".
"Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. "
"Types of legal evidence include testimony, documentary evidence, and physical evidence."
You can get more details from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence
As I said earlier, I remember my mom and dad telling me that Santa was real and I believed it. Also, I might meet someone and they introduce them self as Steve and I have no reason to doubt them, so I believe it. In like manner, the Holy Spirit may speak to a Christian and reveal a truth. Or my sense of seeing tells me that I see a car...I simply believe that and have no reason to think that I may be imagining things.
Not even when you are unable to convey to others this "reality" that you perceive?I have no reason to doubt what I perceive is reality.
Is that how you came to your god belief?I think all of these examples could be grouped into a kind of belief known as a "properly basic belief".
I also think that we can come to believe something through sound logical argument. I'm going to assume that no one here would dispute that.
You still have not shown that P1 must occur with P2 to get to 3.So I'd like to modify p1 from the original found in the OP and see if you think it fixes the argument.
1. People come to believe something by evaluating evidence, logical arguments, or properly basic beliefs.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, people who are Christians came to believe that God exists by (everything listed in p1).
But if you do not agree with my modified argument, please reply with how you would modify p1 and thus make the argument sound.
1. People come to believe something by evaluating evidence, logical arguments, or properly basic beliefs.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, people who are Christians came to believe that God exists by (everything listed in p1).
I disagree with this. Children accept plenty of things without evidence.There was a thread a while back entitled "Belief not a choice?" and several atheists in that thread insisted that people only come to believe things by evaluating evidence.
“Selling eternal life is an unbeatable business, with no customers ever asking for their money back after the goods are not delivered.” ― Victor J. StengerI know what to share not based upon science and secular evidence but based upon His Amazing Grace, which includes the moment-by-moment promise of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
“Selling eternal life is an unbeatable business, with no customers ever asking for their money back after the goods are not delivered.” ― Victor J. Stenger
still off topic. I did not ask anyone to address my intro, only the syllogism. Does this mean you will refuse to address it?It would be best then, to not make statements, if you don't want people to address them. You make a claim about someone said this or that and it is open season.
Thank you my Christian friend. I think I took that into account when I included a "properly basic belief" in p1. I believe that just as a person reveals to me a truth about himself (such as "Hi, my name is Steve") and I accept it as a "properly basic belief", so does the Holy Spirit reveal truths to Christians (spiritually, as you point out)(such as "Jesus is the son of God") and we accept those as "properly basic beliefs" also. Both are persons revealing information to other persons.
still off topic. I did not ask anyone to address my intro, only the syllogism. Does this mean you will refuse to address it?
Please define "properly basic belief".
I disagree with your definition here because you are using some kind of evidence (your experience that he is trustworthy, or that people don't usually lie about their names) to evaluate whether one is telling the truth. Properly basic beliefs are those which are accepted without any evidence provided. See my examples above.For my part, I define "basic belief" as a belief that we are epistemically justified in holding as true and that is not derived from another belief. When believe (there is a difference between accepting a proposition and believing a proposition, but that's an argument for another day) that someone's name is the one they tell me it, I am deriving my belief from another belief "He is a trustworthy source of information about himself; he does not really lie about himself". Another belief might be, if I never met the man before, "People in a normal public setting do not have a reason to lie about their names; I have no reason to doubt the man given the circumstances". This is important because it really does affect who the course of the conversation will go.
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