How does natural selection determine which mutations remain and which do not?

[Ophiolite]

Already read that and many more multiple times, but thanks for your perspective I appreciate the explanation. So you also are of the "happens randomly"crowd, and as far as which one's remain is pretty much hit or miss, thus "natural selection" does NOT cause or determine which ones remain and which ones do not! Cool!

I am puzzled by your almost total misunderstanding. Let's try it in simple terms.

• Mutations arise in a variety of ways, but such mutations are essentially random.
• Some mutations are deleterious under any circumstances and lead to early death of the organism.
• The effect of other mutations is dependent upon the environment in which they are expressed.
• In some environments they are negative, in some neutral and in others, positive.
• Circumstances within the environment tend to reduce the survival of the organism or its ability to reproduce if the mutations are negative, increase its chance of survival and reproduction if positive, and have no discernible effect if they are neutral. (This is natural selection.)
  
• Consequently mutations that are positive tend to spread within a population, those that are negative tend to decrease.
• A corollorary of this last point is that populations evolve, not individuals.

Is this clear? If not which points remain unclear?

 

[jacks]

Sorry no paper there...

Sorry it is a .pdf file. If you search "A Darwinian process: the molecular evolution of enzymes" it is the first thing to show up. It is written by Joan Betran from Barcelona.

 

[tas8831]

If no natural selection is involved, please define "selective pressure"? Is there a difference in your thinking?

Um... Selective pressure is "applied" to the living organism, not the actual mutation.

Waiting for your phony 'gotcha'!

 

[tas8831]

I am puzzled by your almost total misunderstanding.

I suspect that it is intentional. I think he is playing a game that he has convinced himself he can win. Looking forward to the inevitable collection of dubious quotes from those he will present as "reputable scientists" or excessive verbiage...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am puzzled by your almost total misunderstanding. Let's try it in simple terms.

• Mutations arise in a variety of ways, but such mutations are essentially random.

With the first premise being false, no wonder you are puzzled.

Nothing is random, no, not even mutations....

 

[Ophiolite]

With the first premise being false, no wonder you are puzzled.

Nothing is random, no, not even mutations....

Probably unwise to make (random) guesses as to why I am puzzled. In this instance you got it wrong - in two ways.

There is nothing wrong with the notion that mutations are random. Feel free to provide citations from peer reviewed research articles in reputable journals that support your assertion that nothing is random. Alternatively explain why your assertion is true through the particular definition of "random" you have chosen.

Secondly, I wasn't puzzled. I was being polite.

 

[tas8831]

Do you want to know how the cell is regulated or do you want to know what regulates the DNA to turn it on and off? Or do you want to know how cells communicate with each other?

Each cell expresses, or turns on, only a fraction of its genes. The rest of the genes are repressed, or turned off. The process of turning genes on and off is known as gene regulation. Gene regulation is an important part of normal development. Genes are turned on and off in different patterns during development to make a brain cell look and act different from a liver cell or a muscle cell, for example. Gene regulation also allows cells to react quickly to changes in their environments. Although we know that the regulation of genes is critical for life, this complex process is not yet fully understood.

What is it with Christians and plagiarism?

Can genes be turned on and off in cells?

"Each cell expresses, or turns on, only a fraction of its genes. The rest of the genes are repressed, or turned off. The process of turning genes on and off is known as gene regulation. Gene regulation is an important part of normal development. Genes are turned on and off in different patterns during development to make a brain cell look and act different from a liver cell or a muscle cell, for example. Gene regulation also allows cells to react quickly to changes in their environments. Although we know that the regulation of genes is critical for life, this complex process is not yet fully understood."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Probably unwise to make (random) guesses as to why I am puzzled.

No guessing - you confirmed what I posted.

Secondly, I wasn't puzzled. I was being polite.

Really? Here is what you said plainly:

I am puzzled

p u z z l e d ,
not p o l i t e.

by your almost total misunderstanding.

They posted correctly, not with misunderstanding as far as I can see here.
The misunderstanding (and p u z z l e m e n t) (OR confusion between puzzled and polite) lies with your posts, as you said clearly.

Let's try it in simple terms.

• Mutations arise in a variety of ways, but such mutations are essentially random.

You and anyone else can say they are random. So ? That doesn't make them random unless you make that the definition instead of Webster's definition.

 

[pshun2404]

Which process? As I wrote, many different mutational processes are at work, which involve a variety of different enzymes, external agents and random factors.

So do you have any ideas as to what "different enzymes, external agents and random factors" are involved in how some mutations are kept?

I take from what you said that you believe the beneficial ones like the non-beneficial ones just arose randomly (except those with specific environmental causes, though these usually are not passed on).

 

[Ophiolite]

Really? Here is what you said plainly:

p u z z l e d ,
not p o l i t e.

They posted correctly, not with misunderstanding as far as I can see here.
The misunderstanding (and p u z z l e m e n t) (OR confusion between puzzled and polite) lies with your posts, as you said clearly.

I very clearly stated that I was puzzled.

I stated that I was puzzled in order to be polite, hence my statement "I wasn't puzzled, I was being polite".

Saying I was puzzled was polite compared with the alternative of saying to pshun "Your posts reveal seriously disorganised thinking, deep ignorance of the fundamentals of evolution, an almost total disregard for the informative replies you have received from members and other deficiencies to numerous to mention".

Mutations are essentially random. This is standard thiniking within the biological sciences. Forum rules require you to provide citations to support controversial claims. Asserting nothing is random is a controversisal claim. Please abide by forum rules.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Mutations are essentially random. This is standard thiniking within the biological sciences.

This is the way the world thinks, yes.

Now here is the way the Creator states what is truth (nothing random, no , not one thing) :
Romans 8:28-29 NLT - And we know that God causes everything ...
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:28-29 - New International Version...
And we know that God causes everything to work together[a] for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many ...

and
http://biblehub . com/romans/8-28.htm
excerpts from
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

"Now that all things do work together for good, the saints "know", and are firmly persuaded of; both from the word and promises of God, and from the instances of Jacob, Joseph, Job, and others, and also from their own experience: and it is to be observed, that it is not said that all things "have" worked together, and so they may again, or that they "shall" work together, but all things work together for good; they "now" work together, they are always working together, whether it can be observed or not: prosperity and adversity, whether in things temporal or spiritual, work "together", and make an intricate woven work in providence and grace; which will be viewed with admiration another day: one copy reads, "God works together", or "causes all things to work together for good"; and so the Ethiopic version, "we know that God helps them that love him, to every good thing": and to this agrees the Syriac version, "we know that to them that love God, he in everything helps them to good"; and certain it is, that God is the efficient cause, that makes all things work together for his people's good.

The persons to whom all things work together for good, are described as such
that love God;

a character, which does not agree with all the sons and daughters of Adam: love to God is not naturally in men;

it is wrought in the soul in regeneration, and is an evidence of it; it grows up with faith, which works by it; without it, a profession of religion is vain;....

 

[Ophiolite]

This is the way the world thinks, yes.

Now here is the way the Creator states what is truth (nothing random, no , not one thing) :
Romans 8:28-29 NLT - And we know that God causes everything ...
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:28-29 - New International Version...
And we know that God causes everything to work together[a] for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many ...

and
http://biblehub . com/romans/8-28.htm
excerpts from
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

"Now that all things do work together for good, the saints "know", and are firmly persuaded of; both from the word and promises of God, and from the instances of Jacob, Joseph, Job, and others, and also from their own experience: and it is to be observed, that it is not said that all things "have" worked together, and so they may again, or that they "shall" work together, but all things work together for good; they "now" work together, they are always working together, whether it can be observed or not: prosperity and adversity, whether in things temporal or spiritual, work "together", and make an intricate woven work in providence and grace; which will be viewed with admiration another day: one copy reads, "God works together", or "causes all things to work together for good"; and so the Ethiopic version, "we know that God helps them that love him, to every good thing": and to this agrees the Syriac version, "we know that to them that love God, he in everything helps them to good"; and certain it is, that God is the efficient cause, that makes all things work together for his people's good.

The persons to whom all things work together for good, are described as such
that love God;

a character, which does not agree with all the sons and daughters of Adam: love to God is not naturally in men;

it is wrought in the soul in regeneration, and is an evidence of it; it grows up with faith, which works by it; without it, a profession of religion is vain;....

So you are essentially rejecting science. That is your right. It does, however, render pointless any further discussion with you. Thank you for your time.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you are essentially rejecting science.

Not at all. True science is wonderful and enlightening !

I reject what is false - test everything to find out.

If you accept what is false, that is your right.....

 

[gaara4158]

I'm not insisting on anything. So you are saying that if whether a "mutation is passed on to subsequent generations is determined by that mutation’s effect on the organism’s ability to reproduce."

So if it is helpful (in this way) it is passed on? And if it is not "it usually ends with that organism as it fails to pass on its genes." Right?

Yes. That’s how it works.

 

[Ophiolite]

Not at all. True science is wonderful and enlightening !

I reject what is false - test everything to find out.

If you accept what is false, that is your right.....

"True" science is the science practiced by scientists following the principles of methodological naturalism. That science does not entertain your nonsense. That science requires evidence and reasoned argument in order to reject anything.

Where are your tests that show nothing is random? All you have provided is scripture. I have little problem with you using that as the basis for your belief, but you cannot justify calling it science.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"True" science is the science practiced by scientists following the principles of methodological naturalism.

You've misdefined "True" here to your own or mankind's liking.

Here is what the Creator says, briefly. (also over the long haul, which there is neither desire, time nor space here as far as I know) >>
What does the Bible say about knowledge? - Got Questions
What does the Bible say about knowledge?
Proverbs 2:6 tells us that the Lord gives wisdom that comes from His own mouth—the ... The knowledge man possesses tends to make one proud. ... Human knowledge is opposed to God's knowledge and therefore is no knowledge at all; ...

There are a few TRUTHFUL scientists "out there", but they are relatively quiet most of the time,
and much more accurate concerning all things than the worldly ones are.

YHWH the CREATOR says that if you search for them, honestly, you will find them,
and likewise the TRUTH.

 

[Ophiolite]

You've misdefined "True" here to your own or mankind's liking.

Here is what the Creator says, briefly. (also over the long haul, which there is neither desire, time nor space here as far as I know) >>
What does the Bible say about knowledge? - Got Questions
What does the Bible say about knowledge?
Proverbs 2:6 tells us that the Lord gives wisdom that comes from His own mouth—the ... The knowledge man possesses tends to make one proud. ... Human knowledge is opposed to God's knowledge and therefore is no knowledge at all; ...

There are a few TRUTHFUL scientists "out there", but they are relatively quiet most of the time,
and much more accurate concerning all things than the worldly ones are.

YHWH the CREATOR says that if you search for them, honestly, you will find them,
and likewise the TRUTH.

You do not get to define science.

But you are welcome to retain your personal definition of true. I certainly wouldn't want to be defiled by it.

 

[sfs]

So do you have any ideas as to what "different enzymes, external agents and random factors" are involved in how some mutations are kept?

Some idea, although it's not my field. For example, methylated cytosines (which commonly occurs when the cytogine is adjacent to a guanine) spontaneously deaminate form thymine, which then represents a mismatch with the complementary G. Mismatch repair proteins (e.g. MBD4) preferentially remove the T in a CpG context, but the preference is only partial; they seem to be about 90% accurate in removing the T rather than the G.

 

[tas8831]

So do you have any ideas as to what "different enzymes, external agents and random factors" are involved in how some mutations are kept?

What is your evidence-supported opinion on how mutations are 'kept'?

I take from what you said that you believe the beneficial ones like the non-beneficial ones just arose randomly (except those with specific environmental causes, though these usually are not passed on).

What is your evidence-supported opinion on how mutations 'arise'?

Surely, it will not counter the conclusions of reputable scientists...

 

[essentialsaltes]

Already read that and many more multiple times, but thanks for your perspective I appreciate the explanation. So you also are of the "happens randomly"crowd, and as far as which one's remain is pretty much hit or miss, thus "natural selection" does NOT cause or determine which ones remain and which ones do not! Cool!

Natural selection does not happen at the level of the cell. Natural selection is the differential success of genes or mutations at the reproductive level.

Evolution works through two stages:

Mutations provide the greater variety of genes available in the gene pool of the species. Your question seems to be very focused on this part and have gotten some good answers on the various ways in which mutations arise in an individual. Different ones arise in all the individuals in a species, so that there are many organisms with slight (or great) differences.

After this, there is the competition for reproductive success. Here is where the selection takes place. Just like breeders can use artificial selection to choose to breed varieties of tomatoes (or cats, or whatever) together to favor certain varieties. But in nature, not all varieties live to adulthood, or succeed at reproducing, and some varieties may reproduce more rapidly than others. This is where the natural selection takes place.

Mutation provides the variety, selection weeds out the ones that are not favored by the environment.