How does evolution happen?

[Mike Flynn]

Here what i don't get about evolution.
at what point did the monkey *snap* have emotions? why do all humans sin but no animals? (i dont consider animals capable of sin, they're not "smart enough")

Of course evolution has nothing to do with 'sin'. Animals behave in ways that we would consider reprehensible. The difference is they don't qualify it as sin. I suppose theologically you can compare it to the behaviour of a child. They are innocent because they are 'blind', like the Bible says (and like you are indicating with 'smart enough').

Anyone who owns a pet will tell you that animals do have emotions...you are just not qualifying the differences between animals and humans very well.

All evolution can tell you about this is that mental development was selected just like everything else...and I suppose at some point our ability to reason and be aware of something greater than ourselves blossomed.

This could be the form from which we derive Adam and Eve...corresponding to some stage of development where awareness of God was possible.

Why do all humans sin? This is not a scientific question, it is a *theological* one. The answer is formulated very well (and quite profoundly) in Genesis, and not at all in evolution. However, there are some interesting parralels in human sociological development.

 

[revolutio]

Here what i don't get about evolution.
at what point did the monkey *snap* have emotions? why do all humans sin but no animals? (i dont consider animals capable of sin, they're not "smart enough")

Well I think that leaves alot of humans safe from sin because I know a few squirrels that could outsmart some of my classmates.

But really, all animals, to the best of my knowledge have emotions. All the chemicals that produce emotions in the human brain are there in animals. Even if you don't buy the chemical cause of emotions you can clearly see them displayed in an animal's behavior. Elephants are incredibly emotional creatures they mourn their dead with great ceremony. Dolphins are also very emotive characters who can clearly show affection.

 

[lucaspa]

Here what i don't get about evolution.
at what point did the monkey *snap* have emotions?

There is no "snap" and suddenly there is emotions. Evolution is a gradual process. The field of evolutionary psychology is looking at behavior among organisms and it occasionally makes inferences about the "emotion" behind them. It turns out that some of the behavior we associate with "emotions" are not confined to primates. For instance, octopi play! That behavior is generally associated with the emotion "happiness" in humans. Are octopi "happy"? We can't ask them, but the behavior corresponds. See the latest issue of Discover for an article on octopi intelligence and behavior. Elephants have long exhibited behavior that looks like mourning to humans. Are they experiencing "grief"? Hard to tell.

why do all humans sin but no animals? (i dont consider animals capable of sin, they're not "smart enough")

Isn't "sin" defined as disobedience to God? Unless we know that God has directly communicated with a species and left commandments on how the members of the species should behave, it's impossible to tell if they "sin".

We can, however, test different species for what we consider "moral" behavior. Particularly the ability to take pain on themselves rather than see another individual suffer. And many species of primates exhibit what we would consider "moral" behavior.

10. MD Hauser, Morals, apes, and us. Discover 21: 50-55, Feb. 2000.Summarizes some studies in monkeys to determine if they have "moral" behavior.

Many species of animals also deliberately deceive. Captive octopi, for instance, will leave their tanks at night when no one is around, go to other tanks, eat the fish in them, and then return to their own tanks so that it is not known that it they that ate the other fish! They will only do this behavior when there are no humans in the lab. It would seem they know this behavior is "wrong" and don't want to get "caught". Is that sin?

All the ape species have demonstrated high intelligence and deception in escapes from zoos. At least as much intelligence as humans display in prison escapes.

9. E Linden, Can animals think? Time 154: 57-60, Sept 6, 1999.

There are other studies showing that many species of primates attempt to manipulate the behavior (and thus mental state) of other members of their species.

11. CD Frith and U Frith, Interacting minds -- a biological basis, Science 286:1692-1695, Nov. 26, 1999.

Now, as to animal intelligence, let me give you a quiz.

You are in a test where your only source of food is sunflower seeds. But these are mixed with a lot of sand. You have no tools, but are in a house. How do you separate the seeds from the sand?

 

[tcampen]

You are in a test where your only source of food is sunflower seeds. But these are mixed with a lot of sand. You have no tools, but are in a house. How do you separate the seeds from the sand?

Can I try? I would put the sand/seed mixure in water. Seeds float, but sand doesn't. Then I'd scoop the seeds off the water's surface, or use a screen if available.

Where does my answer rank? I hope I'm close to chimp level.

 

[tcampen]

Well I think that leaves alot of humans safe from sin because I know a few squirrels that could outsmart some of my classmates.

But really, all animals, to the best of my knowledge have emotions. All the chemicals that produce emotions in the human brain are there in animals. Even if you don't buy the chemical cause of emotions you can clearly see them displayed in an animal's behavior. Elephants are incredibly emotional creatures they mourn their dead with great ceremony. Dolphins are also very emotive characters who can clearly show affection.

Does nobody here have a cat or dog at home? Ever seen a dog wag its tail or get all excited to go on a walk? Every had a cat sit on your lap and purr? Or the sadness they experience when you leave, or one of their animal companions dies? Emotions in animals seems beyond question through our everyday experience with them, though Lucaspa's presentation doesn't hurt either.

 

[Vance]

If there is water available, I would do the same. If not, I would try tossing the mixture in an arc to see if the sand flies further, and the seeds fall closer. If that didn't work I would try something else.

 

[tcampen]

Come on already.....what's the answer? Is there one?

 

[lucaspa]

[/font]

Can I try? I would put the sand/seed mixure in water. Seeds float, but sand doesn't. Then I'd scoop the seeds off the water's surface, or use a screen if available.

Where does my answer rank? I hope I'm close to chimp level.

Very good. You get an "A". A Japanese Macaque monkey figured out the same solution. All the rest of her tribe were picking the seeds out one by one, but this Einstein took a double handful of sand/seeds down to the shore and dropped them in the ocean. Seeds floated, sand sank, and she scooped the wheat off the surface in her forepaws.

Pretty smart, huh?

 

[tcampen]

Very good. You get an "A". A Japanese Macaque monkey figured out the same solution. All the rest of her tribe were picking the seeds out one by one, but this Einstein took a double handful of sand/seeds down to the shore and dropped them in the ocean. Seeds floated, sand sank, and she scooped the wheat off the surface in her forepaws.

Pretty smart, huh?

Just another example of Culture among primates other than ourselves. The differences between us and our nearest cousins become fewer and fewer all the time. Now, it just seems to be a matter of degree.

Monkeys rock!

 

[Jet Black]

Just another example of Culture among primates other than ourselves. The differences between us and our nearest cousins become fewer and fewer all the time. Now, it just seems to be a matter of degree.

Monkeys rock!

iirc though, none of the others learned this.

 

[lucaspa]

Just another example of Culture among primates other than ourselves. The differences between us and our nearest cousins become fewer and fewer all the time. Now, it just seems to be a matter of degree.

Monkeys rock!

Einstein's teaching of her technique to the rest of the troop would be an example of culture. Her figuring out the solution to the problem is an example of intelligence.

IMO, the differences between us and our nearest cousins comes from:
1. The ability to make tools to make tools.
2. The ability to form complex sounds and thus more representations for an expanded vocabulary.

 

[notto]

Book Plug:


Reason for Hope
by Phillip Jane/Berman Goodall (Author)

As a young woman, Jane Goodall was best known for her groundbreaking fieldwork with the chimpanzees of Gombe, Africa. Goodall's work has always been controversial, mostly because she broke the mold of research scientist by developing meaningful relationships with her "specimens" and honoring their lives as she would other humans. Now at the age of 60, she continues to break the mold of scientist by revealing how her research and worldwide conservation institutes spring from her childhood callings and adult spiritual convictions. Reason for Hope is a smoothly written memoir that does not shy away from facing the realities of environmental destruction, animal abuse, and genocide. But Goodall shares her antidote to the poison of despair with specific examples of why she has not lost faith. For instance, she shares her spiritual epiphany during a visit to Auschwitz; her bravery in the face of chimpanzee imprisonment in medical laboratories; and devotes a whole chapter to individuals, corporations, and countries that are doing the right thing. But most of all Goodall provides a beautifully written plea for why everyone can and must find a reason for hope.

 

[tcampen]

Einstein's teaching of her technique to the rest of the troop would be an example of culture. Her figuring out the solution to the problem is an example of intelligence.

IMO, the differences between us and our nearest cousins comes from:
1. The ability to make tools to make tools.
2. The ability to form complex sounds and thus more representations for an expanded vocabulary.

Monkeys may yet get #1, but #2 will likely require a bit of evolution. I don't think they're wired or have the physiological ability to make such sounds (hence sign language).

But culture, i.e. passing down information and skills from one individual and generation to another, is well establishd in the great apes, orangatans and chimps, to name a few. I don't doubt that the rice and water technique would likely become part of their culture under the appropriate circumstances.

 

[lucaspa]

Monkeys may yet get #1, but #2 will likely require a bit of evolution. I don't think they're wired or have the physiological ability to make such sounds (hence sign language).

But culture, i.e. passing down information and skills from one individual and generation to another, is well establishd in the great apes, orangatans and chimps, to name a few. I don't doubt that the rice and water technique would likely become part of their culture under the appropriate circumstances.

#1 also appears to require a bit of evolution. Many species use tools. A few make them. But we seem to be the only species that makes tools to make other tools. i.e., a flint knife in order to shave a stick and cut vines to make a spear. A very small adaptation that has enormous consequences: all of our technology.