how does devout christians justify voting Democrat?

[Thunder Peel]

So those two issues are enough to make a decision on? I wish the decision on who to vote for were really that simple.

Actually the Democrats' stance on abortion is more complex and nuanced than you claim. It's not as black-and-white as you seem to think.

The Republicans may oppose gay marriage, but they have policies that encourage poverty. Are you saying that gay marriage is more important an issue to God than poverty? Christ talked a lot about poverty, He never spoke about gay marriage or homosexuality at all. I think you might have your priorities wrong.

The Republicans may oppose gay marriage, but they have policies that completely ignore global warming. Are you saying that the stewardship of Earth is less important a moral issue for God than gay marriage? Once again, I think you might have your priorities wrong.

Now, I'm not saying that you should change who you vote for. I'm just saying that your decision should be based on more than a naive understanding of just two issues.

I'm not naive at all. Every Democrat nominee out there has voiced support for abortion and gay rights. Moderate Democrats are few in number and they lack the support from the party to run for higher office in most cases. As for the words of Jesus, did He not say this in Matthew 19:5?:

And he said, 'This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.

He didn't say same-sex partner or another man, He specifically lists man and woman together. There are numerous verses throughout both the Old and new Testament that say homosexuality is a sin. Unless you're going to cherry-pick what you believe then there is no way to get around that. God created Adam and Eve only--Adam was not given a choice or a preference. From the very beginning it was clear that God designed men and women to balance each other out.

Just because many Republicans don't believe in global warming is hardly the same thing as being against the earth. I recycle and reuse many things instead of just tossing them away. The Democrat plan of taxing corporations and trying to regulate our daily lives doesn't do anything to save the earth except for making things more expensive.

The government cannot be God. It takes in trillions of dollars and spends like mad, yet poverty, crime and sickness have not gone down. We as Christians should be the ones giving freely and being generous with our time and talents, not relying on the government to strong-arm people by forcibly taking things away. Jesus never took anything from the rich but instead told them to give. There's a big difference. So much of the current Democrat platform is based on class envy and coveting what someone else has.

 

[Hieronymus]

And it's hard to believe that God is unconcerned if you don't vote for the candidate who made caring for the powerless and indigent his main priority...inasmuch as that is explicitly defined as pure and faultless religion.

You mean the candidate who promises to care for the less fortunate, and then probably doesn't...

 

[RDKirk]

You mean the candidate who promises to care for the less fortunate, and then probably doesn't...

Or the candidate who promises to somehow bring morality "back" to the country (as though the country were ever moral) and then probably doesn't?

The best the Body of Christ can get--and what the Body of Christ is commanded to pray for--is a government that allows us to "...lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity." A government that promises or intends to do anything more than that is actually going to hurt us in the long run. Roger Williams pointed out 'way back in the 1600s that whenever any king loans his sword to Christians, it's always Christians who get killed.

Jesus' goals cannot be acquired by men's methods. His battles cannot be won by men's weapons.

 

[Thunder Peel]

Or the candidate who promises to somehow bring morality "back" to the country (as though the country were ever moral) and then probably doesn't?

The best the Body of Christ can get--and what the Body of Christ is commanded to pray for--is a government that allows us to "...lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity." A government that promises or intends to do anything more than that is actually going to hurt us in the long run. Roger Williams pointed out 'way back in the 1600s that whenever any king loans his sword to Christians, it's always Christians who get killed.

That's why many of us are for as small a government as possible. The bigger it grows, the more corruption and intrusion run rampant.

 

[Hieronymus]

Hurray for globalisation then... :\

 

[RDKirk]

That's why many of us are for as small a government as possible. The bigger it grows, the more corruption and intrusion run rampant.

I takes a huge government to control personal morality.

 

[Thunder Peel]

I takes a huge government to control personal morality.

Not really. Criminals will commit crimes regardless of how big or small a government is, just like good people will seek to do the right thing regardless of who's in charge. Big government often encourages more irresponsibility and ushers in laws that promote unbiblical lifestyles.

God changes people, not federal bureaucrats.

 

[RDKirk]

Not really. Criminals will commit crimes regardless of how big or small a government is, just like good people will seek to do the right thing regardless of who's in charge. Big government often encourages more irresponsibility and ushers in laws that promote unbiblical lifestyles.

God changes people, not federal bureaucrats.

If the intent is to criminalize issues of personal morality with actual social effect, then you need to be prepared to hunt for them, root through their lives for incriminating evidence, prosecute them, and then imprison them. That's not a "small government."

For a long time when I was military, merely being a homosexual was a crime--like embezzling, blackmarketeering, or espionage. If I discerned that one of my troops might be homosexual, I was obligated to take the same action I'd take if I had suspected him of embezzling or espionage: Calling the criminal authorities for an investigation leading to possible prosecution.

To say that did not require a larger criminal justice apparatus would be absurd.

This is why when homosexuality was still illegal (something the military could not change on its own), the policy of "don't ask, don't tell" was actually a real boon for us supervisors. I was no longer obligated to launch such witch hunts.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I'm not naive at all. Every Democrat nominee out there has voiced support for abortion and gay rights. Moderate Democrats are few in number and they lack the support from the party to run for higher office in most cases. As for the words of Jesus, did He not say this in Matthew 19:5?:

Once again...do not try to combine religious ideas with government. The 14th amendment to the US Constitution, section 1 reads as follows "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

This essentially is the lynchpin that legalizing same sex marriage hangs on. So, same sex couples have the same LEGAL right to marry as I do. Biblical morality has nothing to do with this, as we do not live in a theocracy. Religious opposition is all well and good, but religious beliefs cannot infringe on someone's civil rights as stated in the US Constitution. This is the same problem with the current abortion and birth control discussions. Those opposed are trying to force religious beliefs on a secular society. If you want to live in a theocracy, you are welcome to find an island somewhere and start your own, however, the United States cannot be held captive by a fringe element of society trying to force their particular brand of morality on society at large.

 

[Kersh]

That's why many of us are for as small a government as possible. The bigger it grows, the more corruption and intrusion run rampant.

Except conservatives aren't for small government any more than liberals. The difference, by and large, is that one side wants big government to impose their moral standards on the populace, while the other wants big government to "care" for the poor on the dime of the "rich". Both are misguided imho.

 

[JoeP222w]

Since dems are ok with several things that are against bible

Which political party you belong to is not strictly commanded or prohibited in the Bible.

And there are things wrong with both major parties in the USA.

 

[SnowyMacie]

There are six verses in the entire Bible about homosexuality, six verses about prenatal development, but over 300 about taking care of the poor, needy, and marginalized.

Here's my story on how I became a democrat...

I grew up in a very Republican household. I first voted in 2010, and voted for Rick Perry, because Christians are Republican, or at least, conservative. I couldn't fathom how a Christian could be a Democrat because they supported gays, abortion, and illegal immigrants. When I graduated high school, also in 2010, I went to a Christian university that was full of other Christians like myself. During my freshman year, I heard a speaker in chapel one day say a quote I'll never forget "Christians who are Republicans can't fathom how you can be a Christian and Democrat, and on the other hand Christians who are Democrats can't fathom how you can be Christian and Republican." That was my first expose to the mere idea that someone can be a Christian and Democrat. Also, for reason that I'm not 100% about, I slowly became more libertarian. As a conservative, if I wanted the government to be small, why should they enforce our morality so much?

I spent most of my time as a sophomore as a libertarian. I was having a conversation with a friend one day, who was talking about how he was a Christian and libertarian to someone else, and mentioned how while he did believe gay marriage was a sin, he didn't think it was the government's job to enforce who two consenting adults sleep with. I realized in that moment that only made sense in my libertarian mindset. It was also during this time that I took, like every other sophomore at my school, "Old Testament Survey." Growing up, I was taught the Israelites sinned against God, but never told why and so I assumed it was things like violence, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. However, when I actually read and studied the prophets, I realized their chief sin was, at best, ignoring the poor and needy, at worst, downright exploiting them. Those others were still there, but that didn't seem to be focus of God. This God actually fit with Jesus, and I realized the true scandal of the gospels isn't just that Jesus is God, but that God is like Jesus.

Over my years as an upperclassmen, I reflected on my views and realized that if I claimed follow Jesus, I couldn't not support thing like universal healthcare, welfare, livable wages, affordable education, etc.. Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality or even abortion, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity. There were some definite wrong things, like my parents teaching me that all homeless people were bums looking to rob you. That's not every detail of the story, but that is basically how I became a Christian Democrat. Traveler says it great, scripture is very clear on how we're supposed to treat the poor and needy.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality or even abortion, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity.

THIS is the problem...people go for a very surface understanding of scripture...without digging into historical context, or much of anything other than the English words on a page.

It seems to me that the more "fundamentalist" one is in their beliefs, the more simplistic view of scripture they have. It takes a willingness to dive into the grey areas and understand that not everything is as black and white as some would like, and then be willing to walk through that realization to the formation of a new personal theology. Most folks don't like it.

 

[Caretaker]

I am embarrassed to admit that I voted for Obama, twice. He's been a terrible President. But, I think that if either Clinton or Trump is elected, we will long for the good old days of Obama. And, I fear that a Trump-Hillary race is all but inevitable.

Yep! I voted for Obama the first time, but after three months in office I knew I had goofed, primarily because of his neocon appointments (including Hillary). Second time I voted for Ron Paul. I'm afraid you're right, though. Either Hillary or Trump might make Obama look good.

 

[Caretaker]

Once again...do not try to combine religious ideas with government. The 14th amendment to the US Constitution, section 1 reads as follows "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

This essentially is the lynchpin that legalizing same sex marriage hangs on. So, same sex couples have the same LEGAL right to marry as I do. Biblical morality has nothing to do with this, as we do not live in a theocracy. Religious opposition is all well and good, but religious beliefs cannot infringe on someone's civil rights as stated in the US Constitution. This is the same problem with the current abortion and birth control discussions. Those opposed are trying to force religious beliefs on a secular society. If you want to live in a theocracy, you are welcome to find an island somewhere and start your own, however, the United States cannot be held captive by a fringe element of society trying to force their particular brand of morality on society at large.

Agreed. Good post.

 

[Caretaker]

Except conservatives aren't for small government any more than liberals. The difference, by and large, is that one side wants big government to impose their moral standards on the populace, while the other wants big government to "care" for the poor on the dime of the "rich". Both are misguided imho.

Did you vote for Ron Paul?

 

[Caretaker]

There are six verses in the entire Bible about homosexuality, six verses about prenatal development, but over 300 about taking care of the poor, needy, and marginalized.

Here's my story on how I became a democrat...

I grew up in a very Republican household. I first voted in 2010, and voted for Rick Perry, because Christians are Republican, or at least, conservative. I couldn't fathom how a Christian could be a Democrat because they supported gays, abortion, and illegal immigrants. When I graduated high school, also in 2010, I went to a Christian university that was full of other Christians like myself. During my freshman year, I heard a speaker in chapel one day say a quote I'll never forget "Christians who are Republicans can't fathom how you can be a Christian and Democrat, and on the other hand Christians who are Democrats can't fathom how you can be Christian and Republican." That was my first expose to the mere idea that someone can be a Christian and Democrat. Also, for reason that I'm not 100% about, I slowly became more libertarian. As a conservative, if I wanted the government to be small, why should they enforce our morality so much?

I spent most of my time as a sophomore as a libertarian. I was having a conversation with a friend one day, who was talking about how he was a Christian and libertarian to someone else, and mentioned how while he did believe gay marriage was a sin, he didn't think it was the government's job to enforce who two consenting adults sleep with. I realized in that moment that only made sense in my libertarian mindset. It was also during this time that I took, like every other sophomore at my school, "Old Testament Survey." Growing up, I was taught the Israelites sinned against God, but never told why and so I assumed it was things like violence, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. However, when I actually read and studied the prophets, I realized their chief sin was, at best, ignoring the poor and needy, at worst, downright exploiting them. Those others were still there, but that didn't seem to be focus of God. This God actually fit with Jesus, and I realized the true scandal of the gospels isn't just that Jesus is God, but that God is like Jesus.

Over my years as an upperclassmen, I reflected on my views and realized that if I claimed follow Jesus, I couldn't not support thing like universal healthcare, welfare, livable wages, affordable education, etc.. Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality or even abortion, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity. There were some definite wrong things, like my parents teaching me that all homeless people were bums looking to rob you. That's not every detail of the story, but that is basically how I became a Christian Democrat. Traveler says it great, scripture is very clear on how we're supposed to treat the poor and needy.

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

 

[Caretaker]

No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commanding officer. -- 2 Timothy 2:4
.

An interesting verse. Many Anabaptists base their refusal to participate in government on this verse, at least in part. They also cite 2 Corinthians 6:14: "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

But on the flip side, there is Jesus' parable of the talents (Matthew 24:14-28).

So, should we, or should we not vote? Should we, or should we not seek/serve in public office?

 

[Kersh]

Did you vote for Ron Paul?

No. In hindsight, I might have considered it, but I think we really need to support the Libertarian party, as opposed to libertarian leaning Republicans.

 

[Caretaker]

No. In hindsight, I might have considered it, but I think we really need to support the Libertarian party, as opposed to libertarian leaning Republicans.

"The perfect is the enemy of the good." -- Voltaire

On a different note, I'm curious regarding your opinion of Ayn Rand.