How does CS Lewis reconcile the problem of evil?

[Akureyri]

In the book The Problem of Pain, CS Lewis supposedly reconciles the problem of evil in chapters 2 & 3. But I don't see that he adequately does this.

If God exists, he/she/it is either:
A) Capable of stopping rapists from raping children
B) Not capable of stopping rapists from raping children
C) Sometimes capable and sometimes not capable of stopping rapists from raping children (but at any given point in time, either A or B would apply)
There can't be any other options.

If anyone knows specifically where in the book The Problem of Pain CS Lewis reconciles this, I'd like to know.

Thanks

 

[St_Worm2]

In the book The Problem of Pain, CS Lewis supposedly reconciles the problem of evil in chapters 2 & 3. But I don't see that he adequately does this.

If God exists, he/she/it is either:
A) Capable of stopping rapists from raping children
B) Not capable of stopping rapists from raping children
C) Sometimes capable and sometimes not capable of stopping rapists from raping children (but at any given point in time, either A or B would apply)
There can't be any other options.

If anyone knows specifically where in the book The Problem of Pain CS Lewis reconciles this, I'd like to know.

Thanks

"A" is correct, of course. However, God has given us "free will", which implies that we must have the ability to choose to do right or wrong, yes ..

If God stopped us from making any wrong (or evil) choices, and only allowed us to make the choices He would make, could we still call our wills "free" ..

Here's a YouTube with C S Lewis speaking about this very subject. It's very short, perhaps too short, but hopefully it will help. Oddly, this video was posted by the Islamic Worldview ..

FREE WILL and the PROBLEM OF EVIL .. by C. S. Lewis​

 

[Akureyri]

"A" is correct, of course. However, God has given us "free will", which implies that we must have the ability to choose to do right or wrong, yes ..

If God stopped us from making any wrong (or evil) choices, and only allowed us to make the choices He would make, could we still call our wills "free" ..

Here's a YouTube with C S Lewis speaking about this very subject. It's very short, perhaps too short, but hopefully it will help. Oddly, this video was posted by the Islamic Worldview ..

If God caused the rapist's car to break down while he was on his way to rape the child, how would that be interfering with his free will?

 

[St_Worm2]

If God caused the rapist's car to break down while he was on his way to rape the child, how would that be interfering with his free will?

Take this scenario (or any number of others like it) to its logical conclusion and you will have your answer.

Did you listen to Lewis' 3 minute talk on YouTube?

 

[Akureyri]

Take this scenario (or any number of others like it) to its logical conclusion and you will have your answer.

Did you listen to Lewis' 3 minute talk on YouTube?

Yes. And he only explains that interfering with the rapists decision to rape the child would impact free will. He doesn't touch on whether or not causing the rapists car to break down impacts free will. And it's obvious why he doesn't. Because he knows that would defeat his position.

CS Lewis is speaking to what he perceives to be an audience of people who have no ability to think through all the scenarios or to think logically. Unfortunately, he didn't have people such as myself in mind.

 

[St_Worm2]

Yes. And he only explains that interfering with the rapists decision to rape the child would impact free will. He doesn't touch on whether or not causing the rapists car to break down impacts free will. And it's obvious why he doesn't. Because he knows that would defeat his position.

CS Lewis is speaking to what he perceives to be an audience of people who have no ability to think through all the scenarios or to think logically. Unfortunately, he didn't have people such as myself in mind.

Hi Akureyri, I mean no disrespect in saying this, but it's you who has yet to "think through all the scenarios or to think logically". So, again, take the example you used to its logical conclusion (in this case you'll need to think like the rapist) and you'll have your answer.

Do you really believe that God causing the child rapist's car to break down is going to stop him in the end? Will he just give up on his insatiable lust due to that fact, or will the Lord have to interfere again and again and again?

For whatever reason (as C. S. Lewis pointed out in the YouTube video), God thought free will important enough that He gave it to us in spite of its sometimes horrible dark side. And while I do believe that God can and does interfere in the affairs of mankind regularly (so that we are not completely overrun by evil), if He only allowed us to consider doing evil, but never allowed us to act upon it, our wills would not be free.

Since your question in the OP has been clearly answered, IOW, how Lewis reconciles the problem of evil and the existence of God (and that by Lewis himself, no less), why do you persist as if it haven't been? If you are trying to make God out to be an uncaring, maniacal monster (or that that's what He would be if the God of the Bible really did exist), I can assure you there are much better ways of doing so than continuing down this particular rabbit trail.

As a parting thought to consider, one of the chief arguments levied against the Judeo/Christian God is that He is a "Puppet Master" and that we cannot possibly have free will if such a Being truly exists. But as soon as the tables are turned, and we show that God not only allows, but encourages free thought and actions on our part, the same folks want to make Him into the very thing they first claimed to hate, a "Puppet Master", and then call Him evil because He refuses to act as one. Go figure ..

In any case, I'm done, as I believe I've said all I can about this. I hope you don't mind if I pray for you as I really do hope that you come to know the One who thought you so important that He chose to die for you rather than live without you.

Yours and His,
David

 

[aiki]

If God exists, he/she/it is either:
A) Capable of stopping rapists from raping children
B) Not capable of stopping rapists from raping children
C) Sometimes capable and sometimes not capable of stopping rapists from raping children (but at any given point in time, either A or B would apply)
There can't be any other options.

These aren't the only possible options. God is always capable of stopping a rapist, but He does not always do so for reasons related to the exercise of our free will. God desires that we freely choose to love Him, but this freedom to choose necessarily entails that we be free to choose not to love Him. And when people choose not to love God, they enter into darkness and sin, which sometimes includes committing heinous acts like rape.

Think of it this way: A man who makes a knife capable of carving wood into beautiful shapes must necessarily make a knife also capable of cutting human flesh. The knife is intended to be used only for artistic purposes but it has the unavoidable potential of being used to do terrible harm to a person. In the same way, God makes us with the capacity to choose to do good but that capacity to choose makes us unavoidably capable of choosing to do what is bad.

If God suspends or neutralizes the consequences of our evil choices He effectively negates our freedom to choose and/or becomes an enabler of evil choices. God greatly values our freedom to choose because it is an integral part of genuinely loving Him. And it is above all a relationship of love that God is desiring to have with us.

You see, then, that the issue in your rape scenario isn't so much one of God's ability to prevent rape, but of the impossibility of making us able to genuinely love Him and to do good without making us also able to genuinely hate Him and to do evil.

Selah.

 

[Akureyri]

Hi Akureyri, I mean no disrespect in saying this, but it's you who has yet to "think through all the scenarios or to think logically". So, again, take the example you used to its logical conclusion (in this case you'll need to think like the rapist) and you'll have your answer.

Have you or anyone you know ever attempted to do something and every time you tried there was some kind of difficulty that eventually you gave up?

Do you really believe that God causing the child rapist's car to break down is going to stop him in the end? Will he just give up on his insatiable lust due to that fact, or will the Lord have to interfere again and again and again?

If God can do anything, then it would be very easy for him to stop a rapist from raping a child. But since we know that children get raped, then we know God doesn't love the children enough to stop the rapist from raping the child. Is there something about that which you either don't understand or disagree with?

For whatever reason (as C. S. Lewis pointed out in the YouTube video), God thought free will important enough that He gave it to us in spite of its sometimes horrible dark side. And while I do believe that God can and does interfere in the affairs of mankind regularly (so that we are not completely overrun by evil), if He only allowed us to consider doing evil, but never allowed us to act upon it, our wills would not be free.

No one's will is being impacted by the tree falling down and blocking the road which leads from the rapist's house to the child's house. Or do you think someone's will is being impacted by this?

Since your question in the OP has been clearly answered, IOW, how Lewis reconciles the problem of evil and the existence of God (and that by Lewis himself, no less), why do you persist as if it haven't been?

Because it hasn't been clearly answered - at least not here.

If you are trying to make God out to be an uncaring, maniacal monster (or that that's what He would be if the God of the Bible really did exist), I can assure you there are much better ways of doing so than continuing down this particular rabbit trail.

I'm not trying to make God be anything. I'm merely trying to get a better understanding of how Christians reconcile various logical invalidities which arise out of the claims they make.

As a parting thought to consider, one of the chief arguments levied against the Judeo/Christian God is that He is a "Puppet Master" and that we cannot possibly have free will if such a Being truly exists. But as soon as the tables are turned, and we show that God not only allows, but encourages free thought and actions on our part, the same folks want to make Him into the very thing they first claimed to hate, a "Puppet Master", and then call Him evil because He refuses to act as one. Go figure ..

In any case, I'm done, as I believe I've said all I can about this. I hope you don't mind if I pray for you as I really do hope that you come to know the One who thought you so important that He chose to die for you rather than live without you.

You don't need to pray for me. Would you like to get me to believe your god exists? If so, I'd like to ask a few questions of you:

1) Does your God know everything I am thinking of?
2) Does your God want me to believe he exists?
3) Can you communicate back and forth with your god?

 

[bling]

In the book The Problem of Pain, CS Lewis supposedly reconciles the problem of evil in chapters 2 & 3. But I don't see that he adequately does this.

If God exists, he/she/it is either:
A) Capable of stopping rapists from raping children
B) Not capable of stopping rapists from raping children
C) Sometimes capable and sometimes not capable of stopping rapists from raping children (but at any given point in time, either A or B would apply)
There can't be any other options.

If anyone knows specifically where in the book The Problem of Pain CS Lewis reconciles this, I'd like to know.

Thanks

Why stop with the rapist and not go all the way back to why a Loving God is not placing us all in a wonderful garden with all we could want.

The “problem” is created by man’s wonderful objective. God is doing all He unselfishly can do to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

Everything it driven by the objective.

The Garden type situation is what God desires for all humans, but God quenches His own desires to provide the very best situation for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective. Humans have the opportunity to become like God himself in that we have Godly type Love (since God is Love). This “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes, since it compels even God to do all He does.

God is not trying to get anything from created beings, but is trying to gift the greatest gifts possible to humans if they will only accept the gifts as they are given (since they have the free will to refuse the gifts). Humans just have a very hard time humbling themselves enough to accepting charity.

It is truly sad and horrible but tragedies of all kinds (including the rapping of children) are needed for humans to experience, see, receive, give and grow Godly type Love. Christians must cease the opportunities these tragedies produce or there is even a greater tragedy, but sadly Christians look the other way so more and greater tragedies are presented them to get some kind of response that will help their Love grow and help other experience, see, receive that unselfish Love and decide if that is what they want.

The Garden type situation does not provide the “need” for humans to humbly themselves to the point of accepting charity. Adam and Eve had done nothing wrong prior to sinning so they did not need forgiveness (Charity) and could rightly expect their father to “love” them with a wonderful parent type love for wonderful obedient children.

 

[St_Worm2]

Have you or anyone you know ever attempted to do something and every time you tried there was some kind of difficulty that eventually you gave up?

Perhaps temporarily, but if something needs to be done, I get it done, no matter how many times something gets in my way.

In the case of a child rapist, he would have a rock for a heart and a raging, insatiable lust for the sickness he intends to perpetrate, so (for different reasons, of course) I can't imagine any backing off there either. In fact, someone that nuts, who doesn't care at all about others or even about the consequences he will face as a result of his actions, would never stop. You continue:

If God can do anything, then it would be very easy for him to stop a rapist from raping a child. But since we know that children get raped, then we know God doesn't love the children enough to stop the rapist from raping the child. Is there something about that which you either don't understand or disagree with?

No one's will is being impacted by the tree falling down and blocking the road which leads from the rapist's house to the child's house. Or do you think someone's will is being impacted by this?

As C. S. Lewis said, God deemed an unfettered free will important enough that He chose to give us one in spite of the innate danger involved in doing so. So there it is in a nutshell, we either have free will or we don't. We are either free to choose to do what we want to do, be it good or evil, and are free to act upon that choice, or we aren't. If we are free to choose, but not free to act, we don't have free will!! There is no "middle ground" here.

You continue:

Because it hasn't been clearly answered - at least not here.

I gave you a video with Lewis himself answering your OP question of how he reconciles the existence of a good God and the problem of evil. If you don't like the answer Lewis gives, no one here can help that, but the question is answered. Quite frankly, at least 9 out of 10 Christians on this site will give you the same answer because it is the truth. You continue:

I'm not trying to make God be anything. I'm merely trying to get a better understanding of how Christians reconcile various logical invalidities which arise out of the claims they make.

The problem of evil is a tough one to be sure. However, not everything about God and not everything He chooses to do (or why He chooses to do it) can be known by us. Why He chose to give us "free will" rather than controlling our every thought and action cannot be truly known this side of Heaven. Quite frankly, He does not answer to us and has no need to as He needs nothing from us. His actions toward His children then are clearly the result of His choice to love us (in spite of the fact that we do not deserve it) and as such, He is worthy of our trust. You continue:

You don't need to pray for me.

Too late. Sorry!

Would you like to get me to believe your god exists?

Well sure, but that's really not something I can do. Only God Himself is capable of such an act. I will be happy to tell you anything you want to know about how and why I became a Christian however.

--David

 

[Akureyri]

These aren't the only possible options. God is always capable of stopping a rapist, but He does not always do so for reasons related to the exercise of our free will.

What options are there other than God is either capable or not capable of stopping a rapist? We already excluded sometimes capable, as at any given point in time, one who is sometimes capable would be either capable or not capable.

God desires that we freely choose to love Him, but this freedom to choose necessarily entails that we be free to choose not to love Him.

We're not free to choose to love him if external stimuli tell us that he doesn't exist. Or can one love something which doesn't appear to exist?

And when people choose not to love God, they enter into darkness and sin, which sometimes includes committing heinous acts like rape.

Atheists don't choose to not love God. They don't even believe God exists. Therefore, they aren't the ones who enter into "darkness". That being said, who are the ones who enter into "darkness"? Could it be those who believe a god exists, but choose to reject such god?

Think of it this way: A man who makes a knife capable of carving wood into beautiful shapes must necessarily make a knife also capable of cutting human flesh. The knife is intended to be used only for artistic purposes but it has the unavoidable potential of being used to do terrible harm to a person. In the same way, God makes us with the capacity to choose to do good but that capacity to choose makes us unavoidably capable of choosing to do what is bad.

If God can do anything, then he can stop a rapist from raping a child. What about that do you not understand?

If God suspends or neutralizes the consequences of our evil choices He effectively negates our freedom to choose and/or becomes an enabler of evil choices.

If God causes the rapists car to break down while the rapist is on his way to rape a child, he has not negated any freedom of the would-be-rapist.

God greatly values our freedom to choose because it is an integral part of genuinely loving Him. And it is above all a relationship of love that God is desiring to have with us.

If he desires for us to love him, then why does he choose to remain invisible and undetectable to many?

You see, then, that the issue in your rape scenario isn't so much one of God's ability to prevent rape, but of the impossibility of making us able to genuinely love Him and to do good without making us also able to genuinely hate Him and to do evil.

Selah.

As I said earlier, if God can do anything, he can stop a rapist from raping a child without impeding the rapist's free will.

 

[aiki]

These aren't the only possible options. God is always capable of stopping a rapist, but He does not always do so for reasons related to the exercise of our free will. What options are there other than God is either capable or not capable of stopping a rapist? We already excluded sometimes capable, as at any given point in time, one who is sometimes capable would be either capable or not capable.

God is capable but not always willing to prevent the consequences of our evil choices.

God desires that we freely choose to love Him, but this freedom to choose necessarily entails that we be free to choose not to love Him.
We're not free to choose to love him if external stimuli tell us that he doesn't exist. Or can one love something which doesn't appear to exist?

This attempt to abrogate responsibility for your choice concerning God doesn't fly. THere are many people who have the same evidence for God's existence that you have, who don't have the "external stimuli" you assert is necessary for belief in God, and yet they do believe in Him and love Him. The problem, then, isn't the absence of this "stimuli" you've mentioned. Its absence is not a barrier for all the many people who do believe in, and love, God. Why is it for you? Is it because you're smarter than all the people who believe? Or more perceptive? Or more logical? I very much doubt it.

Atheists don't choose to not love God. They don't even believe God exists. Therefore, they aren't the ones who enter into "darkness".

This is a non sequitur. If a smoker believes he will never get cancer from his smoking, is he guaranteed not to get it? Obviously not. If you don't believe the bus will hit you if you step in front of it as it passes by, will it therefore not hit you when you step in front of it? Does your unbelief negate everything you choose not to believe in?

That being said, who are the ones who enter into "darkness"? Could it be those who believe a god exists, but choose to reject such god?

Yes, them, too.

If God can do anything, then he can stop a rapist from raping a child. What about that do you not understand?

I never said God couldn't stop a rapist from raping a child. In fact, I said just the opposite. It seems you're the one who does not understand.

If God causes the rapists car to break down while the rapist is on his way to rape a child, he has not negated any freedom of the would-be-rapist.

And if God does this sort of thing every time the rapist attempts to rape somebody, what then? If I try to exit a freeway but find myself back on the freeway every time I do, is my choice to leave the freeway truly free? I don't see that it is. My choice to exit the freeway is meaningless if I can't actually leave the freeway. So, too, with a rapist. His choice to rape someone is meaningless if he is always prevented from successfully acting on that choice. And if his choice is meaningless, is it truly free?

If he desires for us to love him, then why does he choose to remain invisible and undetectable to many?

God is invisible to all, but He is not undetectable to all. In fact, millions of people have seen that God, despite being invisible, is nonetheless very real and evident. Does God hide Himself from some? No, I don't think He does. The evidence that persuades many to believe He exists is available to all.

As I said earlier, if God can do anything, he can stop a rapist from raping a child without impeding the rapist's free will.

Well, for reasons I explained above, I don't agree.

Selah.

 

[Akureyri]

Why stop with the rapist and not go all the way back to why a Loving God is not placing us all in a wonderful garden with all we could want.

I'm focusing on the situation in which the Christian has the most to reconcile. If you can reconcile A, B and C, then A has been reconciled.

The “problem” is created by man’s wonderful objective. God is doing all He unselfishly can do to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

Everything it driven by the objective.

The Garden type situation is what God desires for all humans, but God quenches His own desires to provide the very best situation for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

Really? Then why does he provide a situation in which he won't stop a rapist from raping an innocent child?

Humans have the opportunity to become like God himself in that we have Godly type Love (since God is Love). This “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes, since it compels even God to do all He does.

Please provide an example and/or illustration of "Godly type Love".

God is not trying to get anything from created beings, but is trying to gift the greatest gifts possible to humans if they will only accept the gifts as they are given (since they have the free will to refuse the gifts).

Provide an example or illustration of a gift which is given by God.

Humans just have a very hard time humbling themselves enough to accepting charity.

Please don't generalize like that. I'm human and I have no problem accepting charity. And I know other humans who will accept charity.

It is truly sad and horrible but tragedies of all kinds (including the rapping of children) are needed for humans to experience, see, receive, give and grow Godly type Love. Christians must cease the opportunities these tragedies produce or there is even a greater tragedy, but sadly Christians look the other way so more and greater tragedies are presented them to get some kind of response that will help their Love grow and help other experience, see, receive that unselfish Love and decide if that is what they want.

This does absolutely nothing to reconcile the problem of evil.

 

[Akureyri]

Perhaps temporarily, but if something needs to be done, I get it done, no matter how many times something gets in my way.

In the case of a child rapist, he would have a rock for a heart and a raging, insatiable lust for the sickness he intends to perpetrate, so (for different reasons, of course) I can't imagine any backing off there either. In fact, someone that nuts, who doesn't care at all about others or even about the consequences he will face as a result of his actions, would never stop. You continue:

How would the would-be-rapist's reluctance to back off diminish God's ability to stop the rapist from raping the child? If you were able to stop the rapist from raping the child, would you stop the rapist?

As C. S. Lewis said, God deemed an unfettered free will important enough that He chose to give us one in spite of the innate danger involved in doing so. So there it is in a nutshell, we either have free will or we don't. We are either free to choose to do what we want to do, be it good or evil, and are free to act upon that choice, or we aren't. If we are free to choose, but not free to act, we don't have free will!! There is no "middle ground" here.

How would a rapist not be free to act if God caused a tree to fall in the road, blocking his path to get to the child he wishes to rape?

You continue:

I gave you a video with Lewis himself answering your OP question of how he reconciles the existence of a good God and the problem of evil. If you don't like the answer Lewis gives, no one here can help that, but the question is answered.

That's like me asking why five plus five is equal to ten and you answer with "because it is" or "simple addition". The question has been answered, but not as best as it can.

Quite frankly, at least 9 out of 10 Christians on this site will give you the same answer because it is the truth. You continue:

How can you know it is the truth?

The problem of evil is a tough one to be sure. However, not everything about God and not everything He chooses to do (or why He chooses to do it) can be known by us.

How would you know this?

Why He chose to give us "free will" rather than controlling our every thought and action cannot be truly known this side of Heaven. Quite frankly, He does not answer to us and has no need to as He needs nothing from us.

How can you know that God doesn't need anything from us?

His actions toward His children then are clearly the result of His choice to love us (in spite of the fact that we do not deserve it) and as such, He is worthy of our trust. You continue:

Why would you trust someone who sits there and does nothing - when he's capable of doing anything - while a tornado rips a child out of your arms?

Would you like to get me to believe your god exists?

Well sure, but that's really not something I can do. Only God Himself is capable of such an act. I will be happy to tell you anything you want to know about how and why I became a Christian however.

Perhaps you're underestimating yourself.

Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?
Does God know everything I am thinking?

 

[bling]

Really? Then why does he provide a situation in which he won't stop a rapist from raping an innocent child?

The rapist raping the child is like most every other tragedy.

Suppose every girl 17 years, 11months and 29 days old had was never raped no matter where she lived or how she dressed, but as soon as a girl turned 18 years old (she may not even know when she was born) rape could and did sometimes occur, what would be your logical conclusion to why this would happen just this way?

Please provide an example and/or illustration of "Godly type Love".

The Good Samaritan. Going the extra mile. Christ going to the cross. The Father’s Love for the prodigal Son.

Provide an example or illustration of a gift which is given by God.

The big one is God’s forgiveness (Love). With our humbly accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness we automatically obtain Godly type Love.

Please don't generalize like that. I'm human and I have no problem accepting charity. And I know other humans who will accept charity.

Really, why do you not have a problem humbly accepting “Charity”?

This does absolutely nothing to reconcile the problem of evil.

Evil has purpose in helping willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.