How does Creationism destroy Christianity? Pt 2

[nephilimiyr]

I've heard this said so many times here and I just don't see the logic.

From what I've found, people who leave the Christian faith do so for reasons that run alot deeper than this issue can ever address. Christianity isn't just a belief but a relationship with Jesus. If people felt it necessary to end their relationship with Jesus because of this issue I would suggest they never had a relationship to begin with.

But is this even one of the reasons why this is being said? Is it because of a belief that people wont come to Christ if they can't believe in a 6 day creation therefore the belief is stopping others who very well may except Christ? If this is the case this would only say how the belief in creationism stunts the grouth of Christianity, not destroy's it.

Or perhaps is it because the belief has created too big an arguement within the church body? If this is the case I don't see it's just a creationism thing but also theistic evolution has had it's hand in it. Therefore the correct way to make the statement is that this debate of how God created and when destroys Christianity.

Please, could someone explain this to me. Preferably from those who say this.

 

[Ark Guy]

Most people who come to Christ...don't know the first thing about Genesis.

In fact most people are biblically illiterate.

Once they come to Christ and start learning about the bible and start trusting in the Word of God Genesis and the six day creation makes sense to them.

later on through Christian literature and web sites they come to realize that there is strong scientific evidence that supports a literal six day creation and a world wide flood.

 

[wblastyn]

later on through Christian literature and web sites they come to realize that there is strong scientific evidence that supports a literal six day creation and a world wide flood.

Then later they find out they have been lied to, no longer trust Christians and either adjust or leave the faith.

 

[Vance]

Creationism does not destroy Christianity, but it does greatly hamper the message of the Gospel and it can (and has) destroyed an individual Christian.

The damage comes in two scenarios:

1. A person is knowledgable about the age of the world and the incredible vast amount of support for this age. They then hear YEC's talking about a 6,000 year old earth, dinosaurs living with people, the conspiracy theories, etc, and decide that if this is Christianity, they want nothing to do with it. I have seen this happen on more than a few occassions. This is accentuated YEC's make it a part of their presentation that if you believe the Bible, you must believe these things. Since there is no way that they could ever believe those things, they believe that the Bible must be equally in error and never get any closer.

2. A young person grows up in a YEC church and is taught all these theories and concepts, and is also taught that if you believe the Bible, you must believe these things. As they get older and realize that these theories are all not true, they begin to doubt the rest of Scripture, since they have been indoctrinated that if you disbelieve in the YEC concepts, you are disbelieving the Bible, actually hearing "then none of the Bible can be trusted".

This is not idle worries. I have seen this tragedy happen a number of times, and heard *of* it happening many more times. My guess is that the number of people who failed to heed the call due to being exposed to YEC'ism "as Christianity" is VERY, VERY high.

The point is that I could care less what a particular group of Christians believe, but to go around presenting YEC'ism as the sole and only reading of Scripture without informing the hearer that many Christians believe very different is wildly irresponsible and uneccessary. It is simply not being good stewards of the Word, even if you believe it.

 

[lucaspa]

From what I've found, people who leave the Christian faith do so for reasons that run alot deeper than this issue can ever address. Christianity isn't just a belief but a relationship with Jesus. If people felt it necessary to end their relationship with Jesus because of this issue I would suggest they never had a relationship to begin with.[/font]

Part of the problem, Neph, is that many of the professional creationists tie the relationship with Jesus to creationism. Therefore, if creationism is false, then so is the relationship with Jesus. They don't allow people to become theistic evolutionists. You can see that on this board. If you are a theistic evolutionist, then you aren't Christian.

As just one, but perhaps the most famous example, this is the oath required to joing the Creation Research Society, the first Creation Science group.

"(1)The Bible is the written Word of God, and because we believe it to be inspired thruout, all of its assertions are historically and scientifically true in all of the original autographs. To the student of nature, this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of simple historical truths. (2) All basic types of living things, including man, were made by direct creative acts of God during Creation Week as described in Genesis. Whatever biological changes have occurred since Creation have accomplished only changes within the original created kinds. (3) The great Flood described in Genesis, commonly referred to as the Noachian Deluge, was an historical event, world-wide in its extent and effect. (4) Finally, we are an organization of Christian men of science, who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. The account of the special creation of Adam and Eve as one man and one woman, and their subsequent Fall into sin, is the basis for our belief in the necessity of a Savior for all mankind. Therefore, salvation can come only thru accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior."

Now, look at that carefully, particularly (4). They have tied the special creation of Adam and Eve directly to salvation. No historical Adam and Eve, no need for salvation, no need of Jesus, exit Christianity.

It's a dumb thing to do.

 

[lucaspa]

2. A young person grows up in a YEC church and is taught all these theories and concepts, and is also taught that if you believe the Bible, you must believe these things. As they get older and realize that these theories are all not true, they begin to doubt the rest of Scripture, since they have been indoctrinated that if you disbelieve in the YEC concepts, you are disbelieving the Bible, actually hearing "then none of the Bible can be trusted".

This point is very, very good. Refer back to the Creation Science oath of the previous post. The fallacy is that "it is all true or none of it is true". This dichotomy simply is not true and, as you note, is irresponsible. Ark Guy uses this dichotomy in saying science "says" the resurrection is impossible by science. Make a choice! Either accept Biblical literalism or science! One or the other. Never mind that a correct understanding of science and of the creation stories removes the supposed conflict.

The point is that I could care less what a particular group of Christians believe, but to go around presenting YEC'ism as the sole and only reading of Scripture without informing the hearer that many Christians believe very different is wildly irresponsible and uneccessary. It is simply not being good stewards of the Word, even if you believe it.

Nicely sad! I hadn't thought of it in terms of stewardship before, but you are exactly right.

 

[eldermike]

This is a Christian only forum

 

[Vance]

This is a Christian only forum

Right, but I am not sure how that applies to this thread.

I don't know of any non-Christians posting here so far.

And, those who are already Christian could still lose their faith due to YEC teaching, as I have expressed. I have seen it happen. Those Christians coming to this forum need the message as much as anyone else.

 

[nephilimiyr]

And, those who are already Christian could still lose their faith due to YEC teaching, as I have expressed. I have seen it happen. Those Christians coming to this forum need the message as much as anyone else.

And as I said in my openning post, if people feel it necessary to end their relationship with Jesus because of this issue I would suggest they never had a relationship with Jesus to begin with. I believe it's alittle melodramatic to believe this issue is the main cause of someone's faith from going south.

If someone says that they can not be a christian anymore because of what creationism says is to me nothing but a cop out. As we all know here in this forum their are other ways other than creationism to believe what Genesis 1 is saying.

If that persons church is telling a person they can't be a christian if they don't believe in their idea of Genesis 1 than that person needs to leave that church and find one that better follows his belief.

I for one have done this in the past. I was raised Roman Catholic but as soon as I was able to, I left the church because of all their teachings I disagreed with.

 

[Vance]

Ah, but Neph, I am talking about real situations that actually happen, not mere speculation.

People believe that the Bible is true. They are told over and over about the YEC concepts (young earth, world-wide flood, no evolution) and are told that these teachings are clearly unequivocally taught in the Bible. They are told that people who don't believe these concepts don't really believe the Bible. They are taught how a disbelief in the whole YEC structure must, necessarily lead to an eventual disbelief in the entire Bible. They are even told that a disbelief in the YEC teachings actually means you don't believe in the need for God's redemption! (Yes, YEC's actually teach this). They grow up this way, fully indoctrinated. They have come to equate these doctrines with Christian beliefs in a very real way.

Later, they are shown the tremendous evidence for an old earth and in support of evolution (the old earth tends to be what really does it since it is SO incontrovertable), and struggle and struggle against the concepts because they fully believe that if they *do* accept this evidence, they can't really trust anything the Bible tells them. It all becomes fuzzy and unclear and untrustworthy. And those who do actually come to accept the evidence in full, and are not exposed to the concept that you *can* accept the evidence and still believe everything the Bible tells you, very often lose their faith.

This happens, and it happens more often than you would think (I grew up in the environment, my father having been an Assembly of God minister, and I have seen it happen first-hand). That is why I both promote the idea that you *can* accept an old earth and a local flood and even evolution and it should not effect your Christianity one little bit. I also promote to YEC's the idea that they should not teach their doctrines dogmatically, but make sure that their young people go off into the world knowing that there are differing viewpoints on these issues even among believing Christians.

 

[lucaspa]

And as I said in my openning post, if people feel it necessary to end their relationship with Jesus because of this issue I would suggest they never had a relationship with Jesus to begin with. I believe it's alittle melodramatic to believe this issue is the main cause of someone's faith from going south.

I have seen it. Many creationist organizations are very emphatic that you can't be a Christian unless you are a creationist. Did you read the ICR oath? Such condemnation could, and has, gotten people to doubt that their relationship with Jesus is anything more than wishful thinking.

As we all know here in this forum their are other ways other than creationism to believe what Genesis 1 is saying.

That's quite tolerant of you. However, if you read AiG, ICR, and Dr. Dino, these organizations say differently.

If that persons church is telling a person they can't be a christian if they don't believe in their idea of Genesis 1 than that person needs to leave that church and find one that better follows his belief.

They could. But they are often told that no church will have them if they accept evolution. That accepting evolution inevitably means being atheistic. It's a black or white choice. As an example, look at Ark Guy's posts on the resurrection: either accept the resurrection or accept science. If you accept science you can't possibly accept the resurrection. It's a take-no-prisoners and there-is-no-middle-ground attitude.

In some famous cases, there have been attempts to expel people from their denomination. Davis A Young and Howard Van Till of Calvin College faced a heresy trial instigated by Duane Gish for their publications arguing against the ICR (Gish was Deputy Director).

I for one have done this in the past. I was raised Roman Catholic but as soon as I was able to, I left the church because of all their teachings I disagreed with.

That's fine, but the Roman Catholic Church is noted for its tolerance in allowing people to do this. For some of the evangelical denominations, the picture is their denomination or atheism.

I'm glad you were exposed to such a tolerant background. What worries me is that many creationist organizations do not paint a picture of tolerance.

See the pages linked at http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/compromise.asp

 

[nephilimiyr]

Part of the problem, Neph, is that many of the professional creationists tie the relationship with Jesus to creationism. Therefore, if creationism is false, then so is the relationship with Jesus. They don't allow people to become theistic evolutionists. You can see that on this board. If you are a theistic evolutionist, then you aren't Christian.

But why can't people think for themselves? You say they don't allow people to become theistic evolutionists, so then don't listen to them. If your belief is that theistic evolution better explains Genesis 1 and you do have a relationship with Jesus then why should what creationists say matter to you? Find a church that better follows your belief. It just astounds me that people would leave their love for Christ because of a belief in what their church says you have to believe. That's what doesn't make sense to me.

When I come to a belief on a doctrine of a denomination, lets say the calvinist belief. I just chose to not involve myself with that church. Just like I would chose not to involve myself in a church who wants to teach a theistic evolutionist belief. But if the issue of what Genesis 1 says is so important to me that I would end my relationship with my Lord and saviour I can only blame myself for this decission, to blame someone else to me is a cop out.

"(1)The Bible is the written Word of God, and because we believe it to be inspired thruout, all of its assertions are historically and scientifically true in all of the original autographs. To the student of nature, this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of simple historical truths. (2) All basic types of living things, including man, were made by direct creative acts of God during Creation Week as described in Genesis. Whatever biological changes have occurred since Creation have accomplished only changes within the original created kinds. (3) The great Flood described in Genesis, commonly referred to as the Noachian Deluge, was an historical event, world-wide in its extent and effect. (4) Finally, we are an organization of Christian men of science, who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. The account of the special creation of Adam and Eve as one man and one woman, and their subsequent Fall into sin, is the basis for our belief in the necessity of a Savior for all mankind. Therefore, salvation can come only thru accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior."

Now, look at that carefully, particularly (4). They have tied the special creation of Adam and Eve directly to salvation. No historical Adam and Eve, no need for salvation, no need of Jesus, exit Christianity.

I see them tying the belief that Adam and Eve sinned and that that's their basis for their belief in the necessity for a savior, and that's is by reading it carefully. Your saying that they haven't mentioned this fact but they do and they do state the necessity for Jesus as being that savior. I just don't see any major flaw in this oath to warrant saying they are destroying Christianity.

Now reading through that oath of theirs I see some things I don't agree with but I don't see those disagreements as anything that major.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Ah, but Neph, I am talking about real situations that actually happen, not mere speculation.

People believe that the Bible is true. They are told over and over about the YEC concepts (young earth, world-wide flood, no evolution) and are told that these teachings are clearly unequivocally taught in the Bible. They are told that people who don't believe these concepts don't really believe the Bible. They are taught how a disbelief in the whole YEC structure must, necessarily lead to an eventual disbelief in the entire Bible. They are even told that a disbelief in the YEC teachings actually means you don't believe in the need for God's redemption! (Yes, YEC's actually teach this). They grow up this way, fully indoctrinated. They have come to equate these doctrines with Christian beliefs in a very real way.

I've never heard any Yec claim we don't need redemption. I mean maybe some wierd sect might say this but does Ark Guy say this? I've heard him say the opposite. I would agree with you that if Yecs do teach that we don't need redemption than that would be destroying Christianity. However in that oath that lucaspa posted I didn't find anything in there that even comes close to suggesting this.

This happens, and it happens more often than you would think (I grew up in the environment, my father having been an Assembly of God minister, and I have seen it happen first-hand). That is why I both promote the idea that you *can* accept an old earth and a local flood and even evolution and it should not effect your Christianity one little bit. I also promote to YEC's the idea that they should not teach their doctrines dogmatically, but make sure that their young people go off into the world knowing that there are differing viewpoints on these issues even among believing Christians.

My question is also about just how many people place emphesis on this issue? I just don't know anyone who cares all that much about how or when God created. Most people don't understand the arguements for and against creationism or theistic evolution and leave it to you guys to hash it out. I used to be one of them. When I would go to a new church I never cared what they taught about Genesis 1. And if I found out they taught something other than what I believed I really didn't care about it. My focus has always been Jesus Christ and the NT.

Now yeah, in the last several months I've become interested in this subject but whether I believe in Creationism or theistic evolution or the gap theory just doesn't hold any power over my belief that Jesus is God and that he died for my sins and that I have a personal relationship with him.

 

[Ark Guy]

Then later they find out they have been lied to, no longer trust Christians and either adjust or leave the faith.

wblastyn, who are you to call the YEC's liars?

You need to apologize for these remarks. Just because you disagree doesn't mean that everyone who disagree's with you is a liar. Your arrogance is really amazing

 

[Ark Guy]

I have seen it. Many creationist organizations are very emphatic that you can't be a Christian unless you are a creationist.

Lucaspa...find me three YEC organization that agrees with your statement above.

I choose 3 because you said MANY creationist organizations ....I figured considering that you seem to be telling us there are MANY christians organazations out there that teach you need to be YEC to be a christian, you should have no problem producing them...or are you willing to retract that last statement of yours?

 

[Ark Guy]

I just love the way the Theo-Evos present evolution as if it is an established fact.....Someone should tell them to wake up and join the real world.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I have seen it. Many creationist organizations are very emphatic that you can't be a Christian unless you are a creationist. Did you read the ICR oath? Such condemnation could, and has, gotten people to doubt that their relationship with Jesus is anything more than wishful thinking.

Well perhaps I'm wrong about this. Again I do believe it's wrong for any denomination or group to force people to believe what they believe to the point that that person loses his faith. Maybe I'm getting creationism and a YEC belief confused again? This is why I left the Roman Catholic faith. Reguardless of what you may believe about the RCs they do teach certain beliefs that if you don't agree with them they say your going to hell!

For instance they do teach that if your baby isn't baptised and dies, that baby is going to pergatory. They don't suggest you pray to Mary the mother of God but order you to. They don't suggest you confess your sins to another man, they order you to. If you don't partake in mass, the Holy Spirit won't live in you etc., etc.

That's quite tolerant of you. However, if you read AiG, ICR, and Dr. Dino, these organizations say differently.

Well you do make a good point here if those organizations say differently.

That's fine, but the Roman Catholic Church is noted for its tolerance in allowing people to do this. For some of the evangelical denominations, the picture is their denomination or atheism.

It really depends on what parrish you belong to, some are tolerant and some are not so tolerant.

I'm glad you were exposed to such a tolerant background. What worries me is that many creationist organizations do not paint a picture of tolerance.

Which is why I say if people don't agree with their teachings or doctrines they should be responsible enough to themselves and just leave that church. Can we use self responsibility here in this? Although I agree not everyone has this in them. I suppose alot of people never heard of any of the alternative beliefs in this subject, theistic evolution, the gap theory, the day age theory, etc., etc.

See the pages linked at http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/compromise.asp

 

[Vance]

I've never heard any Yec claim we don't need redemption. I mean maybe some wierd sect might say this but does Ark Guy say this? I've heard him say the opposite. I would agree with you that if Yecs do teach that we don't need redemption than that would be destroying Christianity. However in that oath that lucaspa posted I didn't find anything in there that even comes close to suggesting this.

No, you misunderstood me. What I meant was that YEC's state that if you *don't* believe YEC'ism, you are ultimately denying the need for God's redemption. Ask Arkguy and he will tell you this, I am sure. You see, they say that if you don't believe in YEC'ism, you believe in death before the Fall, and this, by a series of steps, leads to not believing we need God's redemption. Right, Arkguy?

As for how often it happens, it happens all the time nowadays. Remember that YEC's have been infiltrating our fundamentalist churches for a couple of decades now, and these churches accept what they are told hook, line and sinker. Growing up outside of the fundamentalist movement, you are just seeing the outskirts of the movement. Believe me, it is infecting a lot of people, especially the youth.

 

[nephilimiyr]

No, you misunderstood me. What I meant was that YEC's state that if you *don't* believe YEC'ism, you are ultimately denying the need for God's redemption. Ask Arkguy and he will tell you this, I am sure. You see, they say that if you don't believe in YEC'ism, you believe in death before the Fall, and this, by a series of steps, leads to not believing we need God's redemption. Right, Arkguy?

As for how often it happens, it happens all the time nowadays. Remember that YEC's have been infiltrating our fundamentalist churches for a couple of decades now, and these churches accept what they are told hook, line and sinker. Growing up outside of the fundamentalist movement, you are just seeing the outskirts of the movement. Believe me, it is infecting a lot of people, especially the youth.

Ok, I see. But when you say "YEC" aren't you confusing this with creationism? I know people who want to take the Genesis 1 literally as talking about a 6,000 year old earth created in 6 days because that's what they believe and not by what anything creationism has told them, there is a difference. There's millions of Christians out there who just simply don't study this as much as we have, why? because they aren't so concerned about How or when God created but are justing trying to become the best Christians they can be.

I do see how "creationism" can be harmful to some individuals. However I see that as being different than saying that Creationism is destroying Christianity.

 

[Vance]

Ah, but I never said it was destroying Christianity. I said it is a danger and a hindrance to the presentation of the Gospel message to many of those who have heard it and accepted exactly because they are ignorant of the issues involved. I think it is actually a much greater danger than evolution ever could be. As I have said, I have seen people lose their faith over this issue who would never have done so were it not for the teachings of YEC'ism.

In fact, here is the great irony: Evolution would be virtually no threat to Christianity at all if it was not for the YEC's making it a threat by their approach.