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How do you reconcile Evolution and Genesis?

DogmaHunter

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You keep pushing the Creator aside. As a non-issue.

There's nothing there, to push aside. That's why it is, in fact, a non-issue.
Things that don't have any detectable manifestation whatsoever, are indistinguishable from non-existant things and are, as a result, non-issues.

Many try to explain things around them by natural processes only.

Rather: by processes that are actually demonstrably real.
There isn't much sense in including factors that aren't demonstrable.

Why do you push such aside when those once like you found what Jesus said is factual

What about the many ex-christians that found that what they believed made no sense?
Or the many that converted to other religions because they "found" that those were factual?

That people believe certain things, isn't very convincing to me.

This shows your position of materialistic and naturalistic realm is limited.

My position is limited to what the evidence can actually support.

You have yet to received and taste the Power of the Creator.

Assuming that is correct, then you can't really blame me for not believing things that haven't been shown to me.

Do know in this, evolution is a belief, having a foundation of conjecture.

No.

The fossil record speaks of such

No.

No creature found to evolve into another.

Creatures don't evolve. Populations do.

You are not looking at the fossils found.

Says the guy who routinely handwaves any fossil away in favor of his fundamentalist religious beliefs.

Why, since evolution did not historically happen, there is a godless bend in viewing modern sciences as a means to try and rescue evolution.

Modern science should be read as the Creator made things, not natural processes that in history have never been shown to occur.

You must be born again. Until then you are trapped in what you can ascertain.

You call it "trapped". I call it "enlightened".
 
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DogmaHunter

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So says one who has yet to be touched from on High, and have rivers of Living water running in him.

Until the Living Waters from on High comes to you, many things will not be explained and be beyond you to ascertain.

In truth. One must be born again.

View attachment 242588

View attachment 242589


Mere preaching, is not going to scientific knowledge. It never will.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I have a couple concerns with this approach, Quid.

1) Is natural evil really an oxymoron? In the moral sense, yes, as morality cannot exist without rational beings. But things can be good and bad even without human rationality. To take things in an Aristotelian direction, a good tree is one which sinks its roots into the earth and receives abundant nutrients. A bad tree is one that can't manage this effectively.

Things can similarly be good and bad for living entities aside from humans. It is good for a lion to catch a meal. It is bad for an antelope to be that meal. Once we hit human rationality, these lower level valuations develop into full-fledged morality, but the concept exists previously. So why is it the case that the natural world results in processes that create both good and bad outcomes? Why does suffering exist? Referring to all of this as the Problem of Suffering might be more helpful than calling it the Problem of Evil, especially in the pre-human framework.
I think it important to think of telos here. It is 'bad' for a seed to be destroyed, but in the process the plant comes forth. The seed 'dies' so growth can occur, like the process of apoptosis in most organisms. Similarly, a tree that keeps on growing would pass its 'natural' form and become grotesque overgrowth. So a tree that at some point fails to sink roots further is a good tree, in accord with the aim of striving to be an ideal tree. The Mean in otherwords.

Evolutionarily, even more so. For what is the presumed telos in evolution, but reproduction? An animal that never grows old and dies is in competition with its ofspring, acting against its own reproductive success. It is survival of the individual only up to the point where balance between further reproduction, and the needs of its offspring is reached.

Likewise, an Antelope that never gets eaten, would lead to overpopulation, and depletion of its food sources. There must be balance between increase and decrease. I feel like I am quoting The Lion King, by the way.

So sure, maybe you can envision a world where such competing natural cycles and forces do not exist, but that is not the world we see before us. If we wrench out individuals we can say it is 'good' or 'bad' for that one, but is it so for the whole? Even for that organisms' species?

Yet none of this touches Evil yet. There is semantic difference between evil and wrong and bad, at least implicitly. If I punish my son, it is bad for him, bad for me, but is utimately good in order to mould him into a good man. Virtue occurs in opposition to unfettered wish-fulfillment or desire, Licentitas, for you are only virtuous in acting within bounds. This is again a consciousness here required though.

In such a way, a Lion that hunts its prey to extinction is failing being a 'good lion', not only from destroying his own kind's food source, but from wanton destruction of a natural balance or mean. What waxes must wane, or it is imperfect, is not 'good' for that group. Evolution is never about individuals, but kinds; and suffering is an agent of forcing fetters on what is unbounded otherwise. One must struggle to eat, risk being hurt, or else we would just have indolence that perpetually increases itself like a cancer. Perhaps natural suffering breeds 'natural virtue', the awe of the lion, the speed of the cheetah, the parental care, the solidarity of the herds.

Something without 'bad' effects is a creature of wanton destruction. It is a selfish cancer. It absorbs and takes. Good cells must die, must undergo apoptosis when its function is complete. So the question is really what is the goal here? What teleological function is being served? The Final Cause?

2) Is it appropriate in this case to say that natural evil is the result of anthropomorphism? You invoke Stoicism, but I think if anything that would hurt the case for Christianity proper, since Christianity provides an alternative to the pagan philosophies that said either (a) the world is all there is and cannot in and of itself be good or evil, or (b) because the Good is beyond the material, the material must be transcended. Christianity does something different--it says that the world is good. This may be an anthropomorphism, but it seems very clear to me that Christianity is saying quite explicitly, "Your human intuitions are correct. The world is good, but fallen. This is not what it is supposed to be. Any of it."
A fair criticism, yes. But how do we become aware of the fallen nature of the world, except through our own fallen natures? We realise how we should act, but act differently. Humans are hopelessly mired in our own subjectivity, so must of necessity project this onto anything we investigate.

The natural world mirrors our vices - an animal will overeat if given the chance to. It is blundering forth in its own cycles, but they are controlled. To say it is 'in balance' is obviously wrong, as the very fact of animal 'arms races' or such, shows development, but it is fettered change. There is consequence to actions beyond the ideal or mean, a 'natural virtue' of controlled desires.

This is where humans differ. We do suffer our vices, but can overcome or indulge, and through environmental destruction, allow imbalance there too.

So the Stoics tried to subject man to natural controls, live according to fate. The Cynics to deny human controls at all. Christianity says that Man is the operative party here, not Nature. The world is fallen because we fell, otherwise it is good. To the Pagans, we are but of nature and our vices reflect this, a similar position to materialism, that often thus denies vice in entirety. Christianity flips this around, that fallen man corrupts nature, but nature of itself is not corrupt. Hence the Incarnation will renew and restore.

I think my main concern is this:

Can we have much hope that the full Christian picture of morality, particularly in where it departs from pagan thought with its universalism and progressive take on history, is true? Or does the way that evolution unfolds imply that the natural order is the only real order (in more of an Aristotelian than atheistic sense), and Christianity just another empty form of utopianism? Though I've admittedly been in a Puddleglum mood recently myself.
Puddleglum was the last to stand before the Green Lady's incantation. That whole scene is a play on Plato's Cave. The question is if the revelator saying that the shadows are only shadows is correct, or whether the progression of shadows represents true reality. This is where Faith comes in.
The true sceptics and puddleglums are no worse in this though, as you can doubt the progress of the Shadows as much as that there may be something beyond it. It is a matter where you place your faith, but trust in the shadows is really no more secure than in the 'Utopianism'.
With Puddleglum, I'd rather chase the greater thing, though it may turn out a shadow, then just sitting content with what is already a shadow.

As Horace said: Pulvis et umbra sumus - We are but dust and shadow - after all.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I will need to think about this more to give it a real thorough treatment, though my answer would probably be somewhat caught up in the Nietzschean critique of Christianity. Does the history of evolution lend itself better to a moral ideal that is more along the lines of what Nietzsche would celebrate: the man who excels, who does not take compassion to an extreme but does not relish in cruelty either, even if he might crush lesser beings under his feet simply as a result of being what he is? Some of the key values for Nietzsche are strength and success, which would be very in line with the type of values that evolution would favor. To what extent is the Christian picture of morality putting the stress elsewhere, and if so, is Nietzsche right to goes wrong?
I don't think Nietzsche lends itself to Evolution. Herd mentality often results in greater reproductive success for the whole than an individual. For its successors require a broad gene pool, so your own genes must be favoured within a broader favouring of the species. Think of bees, for instance, with sterile 'sister' drones. An individual might be favoured, but if this leads to reproductive success in the long run, is doubtful. Maybe a Nietschean sense for Life as a whole, but that sounds suspiciously like Shaw's Life Force.

Think of the Borgias here. I know they are hardly 'Caesar with Christ's soul', but show strong familial loyalty (manifest as Nepotism) and so I think a fair example. So long as Alexander VI was Pope, the genes prospered - marrying into royalty, gaining power - with each acting very much as Supermen above the morality they were supposedly beholden to. In fact, the Pope was the arbitrer thereof. When they lost the papacy, the whole family was destroyed in short order. Nietszchean scheming favoured the individual, but not the line in the long run, as they had not accomodated to the broader population's weal.

If we look at the royal families with long-term reproductive success, such as the English Royal houses or Imperial Yamato dynasty of Japan, while individuals often acted in their own interests, often ruthlessly, they or a successor, kept close to the norms and rules of their office. They submitted to the restraining influence of the whole, of society, by calling Parliaments or accepting Regents and Shoguns. Charles I lost his head and potentially his line when he overstepped, after all. Or John, until Henry III's regents accepted common cause with the populace. If Noble houses and Royalty are used as markers of human success, Elizabeth II sits on multiple thrones, while Nicholas II had a bullet in his head and Louis XVI's head rolled. There must be a balance between needs of the group and the individual, and favouring one above the other is evolutionary suicide.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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If you understood Christian teaching, you'd know the Christian hope is the renewal of all things in the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

No, it is a new creation...... You will be transformed...... as will everything else......

So maybe you should check your own understanding before you make claims of other's understanding???? Just saying... But if that's where you want this conversation to go is into insults, then let's do it. otherwise please try to be civil.... and then you wont get insulted back.... just saying....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall.

Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing

And many other warnings throughout the Bible that our salvation can be lost.... that we can be led astray.....

No one can “Forcefully” take it from you, but you can take it away from yourself......
 
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DogmaHunter

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My point is both the one word supernatural and the phrase unexplained phenomena firstly share that in common

So do the words "made up" and "unexplained".

I wouldn't ignore the similarities between what is understood as supernatural and unexplained phenomena.

Those aren't "similarities" that I'ld boast about. And most certainly not similarities that I would invoke in an attempt to raise credibility of my unfalsifiable claims. Because in reality - the exact opposite would be happening.

Is it really about slapping a label on a word

Yes.

or is it about dismissing a legitimate comparison out of the equation?

It's about slapping labels on a word. It's about appealing to ignorance.
In short: it's about lots of things - except rational and logical reasoning.

Are we "slapping a label" or are we "burying our head in the sand"?

You are appealing to ignorance.

It's a similar kind of issue people have with between creation & evolution

No, it's not.
See, diversity of species isn't exactly an unexplained phenomena....
In fact, evolution is one of the most solid, well explained, models in all of science.

Creation is just another religious belief.

Like glass half full of water, people point to the half they have focused on and deny the other half

Except that in the case of religious claims, there isn't even a cup half full of water. All you have is an empty cup. That's the empirical observation: that the cup is empty.
Along comes the theist who claims it actually isn't empty at all. Instead, it is filled with "supernatural" water.

There's really no absolute way of reconciling the two other than they share the same living space.

You know what else shares that living space?
Literally EVERY unfalsifiable thing. As well as every non-existant thing.
 
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DogmaHunter

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A serious question:

Or some confuse finches becoming finches, bacteria becoming bacteria and fruit flies becoming fruit flies as meaning more than it does?????

Or some understand so little of evolution theory, that they think saying nonsense like that makes any kind of point in their favor. While it, off course, doesn't.

If fruit flies would become non-fruit flies, or if finches would become non-finches, then evolution theory would actually be falsified.

But hey, don't let the facts stand in the way of your propaganda...
 
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DogmaHunter

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As far as I know, even in the tradition of evolution, there are different opinions about how to interpret it.

Not really. The processes involved in evolution are pretty well understood, pretty straightforward and pretty much agreed upon by the scientific community.

I believe one of the more famous ones is about looking at the fossil record. What has been historically seen as completely different species progressing along the evolutionary tree, is now challenged with the idea that they are actually one species as it grows from hatchling, to adolescent to mature adult.

Reconstructing the history of life on earth, is quite a different exercise to determining that evolution took place.

The fact of the matter is, that even if we didn't have a SINGLE fossil at our disposal, evolution theory would be as solid as ever based on the genetic evidence alone.

Yes, analysing and identifying species based on millions of years old fossils, oftenly only fragments and oftenly of species that have gone extinct a LONG time ago, is not easy. Did you expect a free ride with nametags on the bones "I am a T-rex" or something of the kind? I mean, it's pretty obvious to see how such would be rather difficult.

Mistakes are bound to be made. Corrections are bound to occur.
This is okay. It's all part of the process of learning.

In certain regards you may as well be playing darts with a blindfold

Especially when we are as ill-educated on the matter as some people part of this conversation.
But off course, the people who actually do this for a living (paleontologists and stuff) are just a wee bit better positioned with credentials and know-how, then some of our resident religious fundamentalist internet posters...

We know more than we understand.

Or..... some of us THINK that.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I agree with most, but is a Lion mauling you, with or against nature since all were put in subjugation to man..... Therefore would that be against its nature to hunt humans and so it should be put down?????

God didn't put us below the animals, or even on an equal footing, but them below us.

Also something changed after the flood as well. Before the flood "all flesh" became corrupt. Yet God changed something as he could promise never to bring about another. The fall affected more than just mankind when Lucifer was given rule of this world.

IMO it was a genetic change. I believe before the flood there was no precise genetic block to keep species from interbreeding. But they went against the natural command of kind after kind. So the only way he could promise not to destroy the world again was to ensure it could not become corrupt as it once was and on its way to becoming.

Merely starting over with what already existed would not remove the conditions which led to the corruption, but it itself must be removed..... and now species can no longer mate with other species.....
You really do live in your own little world of make-belief, do you?
 
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AV1611VET

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Justatruthseeker

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You really do live in your own little world of make-belief, do you?
Says the man that doesn’t have a single peice of evidence to show one thing evolving into something different.......

Your little box you have put yourself into is smaller than my little world.....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Can a person get saved again if he changes his mind?
Apparently so, for Paul denied Jesus three times......

But their is a sin from which no return is possible.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Not really. The processes involved in evolution are pretty well understood, pretty straightforward and pretty much agreed upon by the scientific community.



Reconstructing the history of life on earth, is quite a different exercise to determining that evolution took place.

The fact of the matter is, that even if we didn't have a SINGLE fossil at our disposal, evolution theory would be as solid as ever based on the genetic evidence alone.

Yes, analysing and identifying species based on millions of years old fossils, oftenly only fragments and oftenly of species that have gone extinct a LONG time ago, is not easy. Did you expect a free ride with nametags on the bones "I am a T-rex" or something of the kind? I mean, it's pretty obvious to see how such would be rather difficult.

Mistakes are bound to be made. Corrections are bound to occur.
This is okay. It's all part of the process of learning.



Especially when we are as ill-educated on the matter as some people part of this conversation.
But off course, the people who actually do this for a living (paleontologists and stuff) are just a wee bit better positioned with credentials and know-how, then some of our resident religious fundamentalist internet posters...



Or..... some of us THINK that.

What genetic evidence?

Finches becoming finches? Bacteria becoming bacteria? Fruit flies becoming fruit flies?

BLAST tests which cut the genome up then find anything that matches even if it is in a completely different area of the genome and so would not really be similar at all?????

But then that’s why they don’t just compare it genome to genome like they do with two human genomes, isn’t it?

Pseudoscience at its highest.... self delusion at its finest.....
 
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DogmaHunter

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Says the man that doesn’t have a single peice of evidence to show one thing evolving into something different.......

Except for all the independent lines of evidence that support exactly that...

Your little box you have put yourself into is smaller than my little world.....

Yes, I agree. The little box where claims actually have to be supported by evidence, is a lot smaller then the box where you can simply invent whatever you please to make your point.

Like you did with your invention of "before the flood, genetics worked so differently that any species could interbreed", just to make your story of make belief not look utterly and completely bonkers in light of all the evidence against it.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so depressing.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Except for all the independent lines of evidence that support exactly that...



Yes, I agree. The little box where claims actually have to be supported by evidence, is a lot smaller then the box where you can simply invent whatever you please to make your point.

Like you did with your invention of "before the flood, genetics worked so differently that any species could interbreed", just to make your story of make belief not look utterly and completely bonkers in light of all the evidence against it.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so depressing.
What independent lines?

How is it bonkers? Do you not agree that genomes are shared?

Ahhh I see, your assumption that it only means common ancestory blinds you to any other possibility. It’s ok, live in your little box that you can’t peer out of....
 
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DogmaHunter

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What genetic evidence?

You don't know, yet you claim to be knowledgeable enough on the topic to tell the entire scientific community that they are wrong?

LOL!

Finches becoming finches? Bacteria becoming bacteria? Fruit flies becoming fruit flies?

Yes. If finches would give rise to non-finches, then evolution would be false.
You weren't aware of this either?

BLAST tests which cut the genome up then find anything that matches even if it is in a completely different area of the genome and so would not really be similar at all?????

See, this is why you should leave genetics upto geneticist. They actually understand what they are talking about.

But then that’s why they don’t just compare it genome to genome like they do with two human genomes, isn’t it?

They do. You being in denial, doesn't make the work of actual geneticists invalid.
But yea, I fully realise that I'm talking to a person who felt he was qualified enough to school @sfs , of all people, on the chimp genome.

Excuse me, while I don't take your nonsense seriously.

Pseudoscience at its highest.... self delusion at its finest.....

Self-delusion...... says the person who has just said that he believes that genetics worked so differently that any creature could procreate with any creature, no matter the species, before the impossible biblical flood that never actually happened, occured.


Again....
It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad...
 
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DogmaHunter

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What independent lines?


Comparative genetics, geographic distribution of species, comparative anatomy, the genetic record as a whole, the fossil record, observed instances of speciation,........

And off course, the paralell lines of evidence from other sciences like geology, which fully agrees with the timescales involved in biology, the rocks in which certain fossils are found, etc etc.

You aren't aware of all that either?

How is it bonkers?

Honestly, I don't know where to start with that one. Your level of ignorance is so insanely big that I don't really know where to start to start correcting you.

To be perfectly honest with you, I am of the opinion that you are SO FAR gone in your head that there really isn't anything I could say while being relatively confident that even only 10% is going to stick.

You are not open to this information. You are only open to your fundamentalist religious beliefs.

I am not responsible for your education. So I'll just advice you to go read up a bit on high school level geology, biology, etc. For starters.

Do you not agree that genomes are shared?

I agree that genomes are structured in phylogenetic trees (nested hierarchies), exactly like evolution predicts it would/should be.

Ahhh I see, your assumption that it only means common ancestory blinds you to any other possibility

It's not an assumption that only common ancestry can be shwon to result in such hierarchies.
It's not an assumption that common ancestry factually and demonstrably results in such hierarchies.

It's also not an assumption that no known "created product line" falls into such hierarchy. Not even within the same manufacturer. Not even within the same brand of the same manufacturer. Not even within the same productline of the same brand of the same manufacturer.

In fact, such hierarchies in products is SO inneficient, SO wastefull and SO resource hungry, that ANY engineer/designer building product lines like that, would be fired on the spot for being an incompetent idiot.


It’s ok, live in your little box that you can’t peer out of....

I very proudly live in a small box that is confined to those things that can be empirically shown.

You can continue living in your infinitly large box where people can just invent whatever their imagination can produce and then run with it, pretending that it is meaningfull.

Meanwhile, we in our little box will be making progress while you in your infinitely large box will continue being wrong and enjoying the fruits of the work of those living in the small box.
 
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