How do you know whether you are one of the elect?

[bcbsr]

How do you know whether you are one of the elect?

 

[abacabb3]

You have faith in Christ and when you examine yourself you find you are in the faith.

 

[BryanW92]

I was an atheist for 30 years. One day, without any human interaction, I suddenly believed in God and had a full measure of faith given to me.

If I had been asked, I would have declined. But, I was called with such force that I had to respond. God grants us the faith to believe.

 

[hedrick]

You have faith in Christ and when you examine yourself you find you are in the faith.

Please see this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7849055/

This is close to, but not exactly, Calvin's view. Calvin would say that faith is trust in Christ, and thus that assurance is actually part of faith. Faith isn't something separate you test for. Doing it that way can turn faith into a work.

 

[abacabb3]

Well, to "examine oneself to see if you are in the faith" is straight from the Scripture, so we know there is nothing wrong with that. Rather, it is one thing to say you believe something. It is another thing to actually believe it.

For example, back in 2004 a lot of people pretended they did not like President Bush, yet voted for him regardless. So, it was not what people said what they believed which was their actual belief, but what they actually did which reflected where their hearts really were.

So, if we say we love Christ and have faith in Him, yet do not see in our own lives to lay down our lives for the brethren, that seems like an obvious case of talking the talk but not walking the walk.

Now, I read your link and someone asked how much good works is enough to prove one has faith. Ultimately, we do not have an answer to this question. I would say, for all practical purposes, if one's faith in Christ has any effect on how one thinks, feels, and acts, then the faith is real. It is not in terms of degree, but rather if it is there at all. If so, then that faith is the result of the work of the Holy Spirit and is genuine. Because all that have genuine faith are not lost, then salvation is assured and by God's promise won't be rescinded.

 

[hedrick]

Well, to "examine oneself to see if you are in the faith" is straight from the Scripture, so we know there is nothing wrong with that. Rather, it is one thing to say you believe something. It is another thing to actually believe it.

To my knowledge, the "examine yourself" passages are about the Christian life. They ask us to make sure we are living up to our faith. You're probably referring to 2 Cor 13:5. First, as I'll note below, it's probably not referring to individuals examining their faith. But in any case, it's about behavior. It's asking us to examine ourselves to make sure we are living in the faith. (NRSV and Good News translate "living in the faith." This is probably unnecessarily interpretative for a translation, but I agree that this is what is meant.)

But "examine yourselves" is probably asking the Church to examine itself. The context of this passage is disciplinary. Paul is suggesting that the Corinthian church examine itself, handling the disciplinary problem itself, rather than depending upon Paul to do it. That way when he comes to them he will find that it has already been dealt with (11:10). This is the understanding of the Word commentary (Ralph P Martin), and I have to say that I think it makes sense. 13:5 follows a passage talking about this upcoming visit, where he threatens to deal harshly with offenders. And vs 10 doesn't make sense otherwise.

 

[JM]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]CHAPTER 18; OF THE ASSURANCE OF GRACE AND SALVATION[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Paragraph 1. Although temporary believers and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God and in a state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish;1 yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God,2 which hope shall never make them ashamed.3[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]1 Job 8:13,14; Matt. 7:22,23[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2 1 John 2:3, 3:14,18,19,21,24, 5:13[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3 Rom. 5:2,5[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Paragraph 2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith,4 founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel;5 and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made,6 and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God;7 and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.8[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4 Heb. 6:11,19[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]5 Heb. 6:17,18[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]6 2 Pet. 1:4,5,10,11[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]7 Rom. 8:15,16[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]8 1 John 3:1-3[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Paragraph 3. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and struggle with many difficulties before he be partaker of it;9 yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto:10 and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance;11 -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.12[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]9 Isa. 50:10; Ps. 88; Ps. 77:1-12[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]10 1 John 4:13; Heb. 6:11,12[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]11 Rom. 5:1,2,5, 14:17; Ps. 119:32[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]12 Rom. 6:1,2; Titus 2:11,12,14[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Paragraph 4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it,13 by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit;14 by some sudden or vehement temptation,15 by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light,16 yet are they never destitute of the seed of God17 and life of faith,18 that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived,19 and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair.20[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]13 Cant. 5:2,3,6[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]14 Ps. 51:8,12,14[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]15 Ps. 116:11; 77:7,8, 31:22[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]16 Ps. 30:7[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]17 1 John 3:9[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]18 Luke 22:32[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]19 Ps. 42:5,11[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]20 Lam. 3:26-31[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[abacabb3]

To my knowledge, the "examine yourself" passages are about the Christian life. They ask us to make sure we are living up to our faith. You're probably referring to 2 Cor 13:5. First, as I'll note below, it's probably not referring to individuals examining their faith. But in any case, it's about behavior. It's asking us to examine ourselves to make sure we are living in the faith. (NRSV and Good News translate "living in the faith." This is probably unnecessarily interpretative for a translation, but I agree that this is what is meant.)

But "examine yourselves" is probably asking the Church to examine itself. The context of this passage is disciplinary. Paul is suggesting that the Corinthian church examine itself, handling the disciplinary problem itself, rather than depending upon Paul to do it. That way when he comes to them he will find that it has already been dealt with (11:10). This is the understanding of the Word commentary (Ralph P Martin), and I have to say that I think it makes sense. 13:5 follows a passage talking about this upcoming visit, where he threatens to deal harshly with offenders. And vs 10 doesn't make sense otherwise.

I think we are splitting hairs here, as I am not arguing that we are to doubt we are faithful. If we were to take 2 Cor 13:5 that seriously, then that reflects a great deal of faith in itself.

However, what is true of a church made up of individuals is also true of the individuals

THis is why our assurance is simply our faith. Our faith leads us to believe we will persevere, simply because God promises it. And, if we will persevere, our salvation is assured. There is no litmus test for it. Faith in Christ is assurance of salvation and Christ says He loses none that the Father gave Him.

 

[hedrick]

I think we are splitting hairs here, as I am not arguing that we are to doubt we are faithful. If we were to take 2 Cor 13:5 that seriously, then that reflects a great deal of faith in itself.

However, what is true of a church made up of individuals is also true of the individuals

THis is why our assurance is simply our faith. Our faith leads us to believe we will persevere, simply because God promises it. And, if we will persevere, our salvation is assured. There is no litmus test for it. Faith in Christ is assurance of salvation and Christ says He loses none that the Father gave Him.

Maybe we are in agreement I hope so. But when I said faith is assurance, you seemed to object, adding statements about examining our faith.

The difference is not just splitting hairs. It strikes at the essence of problems we see in Christian Advice all the time. If faith in Christ is assurance, because faith means trust, then if we’re lacking in trust, we look to Christ. Since trust is trust in something, to build trust we need to look at the thing we’re trusting. We build trust in someone by getting to know them better and seeing what they have done for us.

But some Christians — I’m hoping not you — think that assurance comes from knowing they have faith. That means that if they are lacking in assurance, they have to examine themselves to see if they really have faith. But how can self-examination ever result in a positive verdict? I’m sure this isn’t intentional, but they end up placing their faith in their faith rather than in Christ.

This is why it worried me to see you talking about examining our faith.

 

[AMR]

THis is why our assurance is simply our faith. Our faith leads us to believe we will persevere, simply because God promises it. And, if we will persevere, our salvation is assured. There is no litmus test for it. Faith in Christ is assurance of salvation and Christ says He loses none that the Father gave Him.

Providentially, as relates to your "assurance is simply our faith" statement, this recent discussion in the AAC forum, may be useful:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7848949/

 

[bcbsr]

In contrast to the "I know I'm saved because I believe I'm saved" idea, the Bible teaches that assurance of salvation is based upon evidence.

For example,

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands" 1John 2:3

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother" 1John 3:10

"Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." 1John 3:15

Or in evaulating the Thessalonians Paul said, "we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" 1Th 1:4 and then lists why, such as "You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering", "The Lord’s message rang out from you", "you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven"

The Bible teaches that a person's assurance of salvation is to be proportional to the degree to which he behaves as a child of God should.

This in contrast to antinomianism (today called "Free Grace Theology") which presumes no correlation between one's behavior and one's salvation status.

 

[abacabb3]

Maybe we are in agreement I hope so. But when I said faith is assurance, you seemed to object, adding statements about examining our faith.

The difference is not just splitting hairs. It strikes at the essence of problems we see in Christian Advice all the time. If faith in Christ is assurance, because faith means trust, then if we’re lacking in trust, we look to Christ. Since trust is trust in something, to build trust we need to look at the thing we’re trusting. We build trust in someone by getting to know them better and seeing what they have done for us.

But some Christians — I’m hoping not you — think that assurance comes from knowing they have faith. That means that if they are lacking in assurance, they have to examine themselves to see if they really have faith. But how can self-examination ever result in a positive verdict? I’m sure this isn’t intentional, but they end up placing their faith in their faith rather than in Christ.

This is why it worried me to see you talking about examining our faith.

I assure you, we agree. A christian does not have to constantly re-evaluate whether he really is a Christian, hence being in constant doubt of his salvation. This turns faith into something that is a matter of man's effort.

But, let me get into a little more what I was getting at:

I suppose, rightly or wrongly, a big concern of mine is differentiating between substantive faith and faith that is mere words. We know from the Scripture that there are those that profess faith without actually possessing it. There are stories of many a believer brought up in a church, making all the professions, only to find later they professed what they truly did not understand.

So, the assurance of the believer is indeed their faith, but it is a real condition of the heart. Hearts of stone are not incapable of deceiving others, if not even themselves. Hence, the Scripture always warns believers from falling away (Heb 6:4-6) only to make clear that this is definitely not going to occur to the Christian believer (Heb 6:9). So, indeed we work out our salvation in real fear and trembling, but in complete confidence in God that He works in us the will to bring about the perseverance of our faith.

 

[hedrick]

[This is a response to bcbsr as well.]

So, the assurance of the believer is indeed their faith, but it is a real condition of the heart. Hearts of stone are not incapable of deceiving others, if not even themselves. Hence, the Scripture always warns believers from falling away (Heb 6:4-6) only to make clear that this is definitely not going to occur to the Christian believer (Heb 6:9). So, indeed we work out our salvation in real fear and trembling, but in complete confidence in God that He works in us the will to bring about the perseverance of our faith.

I understand your concern. But I’m not sure it’s a big problem.

N T Wright says it’s common to summarize Paul’s position as justified by faith but judged by works. I think that’s a good summary of Jesus’ teaching as well. Jesus both reassures us that God is a father who will never give up on us even if we’re unworthy, and speaks about judgement in terms that are sometimes pretty graphic.

Note that I’m not suggesting universalism here. I’m not even saying that there’s no such thing as false faith. Hitler at times talked like a Christian, but his idea of Jesus was so twisted that we can’t reasonably accept him as a follower of Jesus. But I’m not convinced that this is the case for people who think they’re Christian, believe that Jesus has died for them, but are not very good followers, which is what most Christians mean when they talk about false faith. There’s entirely too much loose talk about fellow Christians as not being truly converted.

I’ve often thought that I Cor 3:12 may be the real answer for them (well, for all of us to some extent, to be honest). It’s not that they’ll go to an eternal torture-house, but that not much will be left of their lives.

I don’t mind at all people reminding Christians what Jesus said about lazy servants. But I’m not convinced that it’s a good idea to get people focused on the quality of their faith. The result is entirely too likely to be pressuring people into having some kind of emotional experience. I think it’s better for Christians to be confident that God really does accept them, but that they’re still accountable for their actions.

A lot depends upon how you read Jesus’ language about Gehenna. In one case he makes a pretty direct citation of Is 66:24. This isn’t eternal torture. It’s the dead bodies of God’s enemies. You can reasonably read him as speaking of the destruction of evil, not of hell in the sense of Milton. Note that I’m speaking here of Christians. My understanding is that almost all (and perhaps all) of Jesus’ talk about judgement is actually directed at people who are at least nominal followers of God. To my knowledge, he didn’t really deal with non-believers. I’m sure he would have shared the prophets’ views on the fate of God’s real enemies.

We’d probably get more agreement on these topics if Jesus had been more explicit about judgement. Paul speaks a bit more clearly about the fact that the line between good and evil goes through all of us. And 1 Cor 3:12 gives a model of judgement that is consistent with that (remembering again that he’s speaking of believers — I am not denying the existence of a more radical approach to people who reject God). Jesus alluded to varying rewards and punishments on a number of occasions, but his preference for bold statements and hyperbole didn’t lead him to be as explicit as Paul on how that worked.

 

[bcbsr]

BryanW92,

You say, "we Calvinists do not question another person's salvation status." So you're telling me that a Christian who is a Calvinists does not judge whether fellow Christians are saved or not. That right? This in contrast to examples in the Bible such Paul telling the Thessalonians that he is confident of their salvation status. "We know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" 1Th 1:3 or to Ephesian of whom he wrote, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith" Eph 2:8 And there are plenty other examples of such.

Was John sinning by judging others saying, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" 1John 2:19 And are you telling me that Calvinism teaches people not to obey such commands as 1John 3:7,8 "Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil." Was Paul sinning when he judged others, such as the sexually immoral man in 1Cor 5 whom he characterized as "wicked" in 1Cor 5:13 followed by saying, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?" 1Cor 6:9 and listing categories of people who do not inherit the kingdom of God.

Words mean things. Do such categories mean anything to the Calvinist? Aren't Calvinist taught to apply what the Bible says? Or is one's "reputation damaged" from the viewpoint of Calvinists, by speaking the truth and applying what the Bible says?

As for your accusation, "your reputation on this Calvinist forum is damaged by your own words and actions." I say, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?" John 18:23 Else absent of evident, your accusation is false, which if I recall correctly is a violation of one of the 10 commandments, is it not? Or are you saying that speaking the truth on this Calvinist forum "damages" ones "reputation"? If so, that speaks for itself of the character of Calvinism.

 

[abacabb3]

You sinned. I rebuked you. You refused to repent.

I am honestly sorry I hurt your feelings, but I think what I wrote was factually accurate. The Scripture does not teach that our assurance grows with our works.

In fact you ignored a smoking gun Scripture:

“I believed, therefore I spoke,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you [the Corinthians]” (2 Cor 4:13-14).


Please address the Scripture or I ask you to please go to the debate subforum.

 

[bcbsr]

abacabb3,

First of all saying, "I am honestly sorry I hurt your feelings" is not an admission that you sinned, nor does it express the intention to repent of sin.

As for your "scriptures", none prove your hypothesis. None prove that one's assurance of salvation is not to be proportional to the degree to which a person behaves as a child of God should. Meanwhile you have failed to deal with the scriptures which I mentioned.

How do you know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are? Compare your answer to 1John 3:10

 

[Restoresmysoul]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7849689/#post66568041

 

[BryanW92]

You say, "we Calvinists do not question another person's salvation status." So you're telling me that a Christian who is a Calvinists does not judge whether fellow Christians are saved or not. That right? This in contrast to examples in the Bible such Paul telling the Thessalonians that he is confident of their salvation status. "We know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" 1Th 1:3 or to Ephesian of whom he wrote, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith" Eph 2:8 And there are plenty other examples of such.

Was John sinning by judging others saying, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" 1John 2:19 And are you telling me that Calvinism teaches people not to obey such commands as 1John 3:7,8 "Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil." Was Paul sinning when he judged others, such as the sexually immoral man in 1Cor 5 whom he characterized as "wicked" in 1Cor 5:13 followed by saying, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?" 1Cor 6:9 and listing categories of people who do not inherit the kingdom of God.

Words mean things. Do such categories mean anything to the Calvinist? Aren't Calvinist taught to apply what the Bible says? Or is one's "reputation damaged" from the viewpoint of Calvinists, by speaking the truth and applying what the Bible says?

As for your accusation, "your reputation on this Calvinist forum is damaged by your own words and actions." I say, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?" John 18:23 Else absent of evident, your accusation is false, which if I recall correctly is a violation of one of the 10 commandments, is it not? Or are you saying that speaking the truth on this Calvinist forum "damages" ones "reputation"? If so, that speaks for itself of the character of Calvinism.

There is nothing that I or any Calvinist could say that would change your mind. In your mind, you are right. You have the proof texts to prove it. You won't accept any scripture that we provide, claiming that it is irrelevant or just ignoring it and then attacking us for something else.

Your mission is to convince us that you do not accept Reformed theology and I think that you have made that point clear. Do you really think that your hate-filled posts will make us change? I was Arminian and that theology is hollow and disminishes God. I will never go back to that kind of humanism. your proof texts cannot change the nature of a God who can speak a universe into creation. The systematic theology of Calvin is much greater than your bumper sticker preaching. Yes, it is the same bible, but he took it in its entirety and you make a mockery of it with your bumper sticker quotes.

 

[abacabb3]

Again, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, so I will be respectful and not respond to the fact you are being argumentative. However, I will drop the conversation after this point if we cannot address the actual Scripture at hand.

“I believed, therefore I spoke,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you [the Corinthians]” (2 Cor 4:13-14).

Please explain the above Scripture. What was Paul sure of?

 

[bcbsr]

abacabb3,

Again you fail to deal with the scriptures that I bring up. But insist upon me dealing with scriptures you bring up. OK. I guess that's all I can expect of Calvinists. As for 2Cor 4, Paul spoke confidently of that of which he was confident in his own case. But doesn't speak so for everyone. Later in that same letter he says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you— unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test." 2Cor 13:5,6 Paul, apparently unlike Calvinists, was opened to being scrutinize by others as to whether he was in the faith.

Satisfied?