How do you know that you have been predestined to salvation?

[AndOne]

How do you know that you were merely not "temporarily impressed by the power of the Holy Spirit" such that God illuminates in you mind to this extent, that you recognize his grace and that this "evanescent grace" is indistinguishable from that of one who is of the elect?

There is absolutely NOTHING in scripture that says the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit is temporary. NOTHING.

 

[AndOne]

I wish to know how those who follow a faith rooted in traditional Calvinist theology have such confidence in their belief that they are of the elect predestined to salvation?

In the Synod of Dort it details a doctrinal point known as Perseverance of the saints which states that "since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end."

Given that election is based on the fact that one must persevere in their faith to the end, how would one even know they are truly one of the elect until the moment of their death? Since we know nothing with any certainty of our future, their would be no way of knowing with any absolute certainty that we will not have a crisis of faith in those moments before our death. Therefore one can not place any confidence in their salvation based on their present state of faith.

Romans 8:31-39

What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Chris81]

There is absolutely NOTHING in scripture that says the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit is temporary. NOTHING.

I agree but I am not the one who professed such a belief, I suggest you take this up with John Calvin.

 

[RobertZ]

I am speaking of believers who lived a large portion of their lives IN Christ. They bore much fruit. But they also forsook Christ later in life.

That is an impossible scenario for the true Holy Spirit indwelt believer in Christ and scripture makes that quite clear. You will not find one single person in the Bible who was born again and then later in life became unborn "losing salvation". The very thought of that is ridiculous and absured.

 

[Chris81]

Im sorry bro, I just think your making it more difficult than it needs to be but then again who am I to talk because I do the same thing in regards to my own salvation. Im sorry that I couldnt help you more.

Thanks for the honesty! I know that Calvinist do not believe everything that Calvin articulated in his doctrinal writings. So perhaps in the tradition of mainstream Calvinism these may not be applicable doctrines. Maybe I am making your reformed theology more complicated than how it is actually practiced. However to be fair I can imagine that Calvinists are equally confounded by Arminian theology. In reality what is most important is that we all faithfully serve Christ.

 

[RobertZ]

There is absolutely NOTHING in scripture that says the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit is temporary. NOTHING.

The effects of the Holy Spirit on some is temporary according to Hebrews 6:4-6.

Note that this passage is speaking of those who were enlightened in one way or the other "NOT SAVED" by the Holy Ghost yet in the end they never truly believed on Christ and thus in time fell away from the conviction that they once had.

 

[RobertZ]

Thanks for the honesty! I know that Calvinist do not believe everything that Calvin articulated in his doctrinal writings. So perhaps in the tradition of mainstream Calvinism these may not be applicable doctrines. Maybe I am making your reformed theology more complicated than how it is actually practiced. However to be fair I can imagine that Calvinists are equally confounded by Arminian theology. In reality what is most important is that we all faithfully serve Christ.

No problem at all and I agree its all about Christ instead of all these different theologys which can drive a man insane.

At first I thought their was only one kind of Calvinism then I learned about High, med and low Calvinism which to me is just nuts when you think about it.

 

[Chris81]

That is an impossible scenario for the true Holy Spirit indwelt believer in Christ and scripture makes that quite clear. You will not find one single person in the Bible who was born again and then later in life became unborn "losing salvation". The very thought of that is ridiculous and absured.

How do you interpret Hebrews 6? It seems to speak of one who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but had fallen away from faith.

*Oops, it looks as thou you had previously answered my question in response to a different post!

 

[AndOne]

I agree but I am not the one who professed such a belief, I suggest you take this up with John Calvin.

Calvin doesn't say it either... But that's besides the point. Calvin's writings do not trump scripture.

 

[Chris81]

Calvin doesn't say it either...

Nothing stopping you from reading his writings, see post #16.

But that's besides the point. Calvin's writings do not trump scripture.

That, you and I can agree on!

 

[Chris81]

How does one with a reformed theology react to one who has fallen from faith, reached the bottom, and as a result of those trials and tribulations now has been brought back to faith?

Do you accept them back into the Church recognizing that it is the final perseverance of faith that really counts or are you suspicious of their conversion back to faith?

I have heard that Calvinist do not believe that one who is elect can ever backslide. Is that true? If so how do you account for someone who genuinely seems to have revived to have true living faith in Christ?

 

[AndOne]

Nothing stopping you from reading his writings, see post #16.

I've read much of them - including the Institutes a couple of times. This might be another area that I part ways with Calvin. I see where he is coming from - but like Jesus said - His sheep know his voice.

I think its fair to say however - that the point of this passage from the institutes is to show why some - who seemingly think they are saved - in all actuality are not. In other words - those who fall away were never truly saved to begin with.

But I disagree with Calvin's premisis - "but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption." I don't buy that and I think Calvin would be hard pressed to find scripture to back that assesment up.

 

[AndOne]

How does one with a reformed theology react to one who has fallen from faith, reached the bottom, and as a result of those trials and tribulations now has been brought back to faith?

Such a person never was lost. Their repentence demonstrates this. It's not our place to judge the salvation of a brother. When he slips/backslides it is our hope to bring them back to repentence through prayer and church discipline.

Do you accept them back into the Church recognizing that it is the final perseverance of faith that really counts or are you suspicious of their conversion back to faith?

We accept them back in because we know that we are all sinners saved by grace

I have heard that Calvinist do not believe that one who is elect can ever backslide. Is that true? If so how do you account for someone who genuinely seems to have revived to have true living faith in Christ?

No - we believe it is possible for Calvinists to backslide....

 

[Rightglory]

Robertz,

That is an impossible scenario for the true Holy Spirit indwelt believer in Christ and scripture makes that quite clear. You will not find one single person in the Bible who was born again and then later in life became unborn "losing salvation". The very thought of that is ridiculous and absured.

It may be impossible within your theological view. But is surely is not impossible based on scripture. There are all kinds of examples of believers who have fallen away, some came back.

Prodigal son, the five foolish virgins, the two middle examples of the parable of the sower, the unfaithful servant in Luke 12:46, Then you have a host of verses which clearly indicates believers lost faith. There are about 200 of them in scripture. You comment later on Heb 6:4 which contained within the verse three specific elements of a believer possessing salvation.

And don't forget about Adam.

Yet, you or others have yet to produce even one verse that says that man can guarantee his faith.

 

[cygnusx1]

I have heard that Calvinist do not believe that one who is elect can ever backslide. Is that true? If so how do you account for someone who genuinely seems to have revived to have true living faith in Christ?

first I have heard of it .

I do know many assume (Arminians ) backslideness is the same as Apostacy , they view any backslideness as losing salvation !

 

[Chris81]

Such a person never was lost. Their repentence demonstrates this. It's not our place to judge the salvation of a brother. When he slips/backslides it is our hope to bring them back to repentence through prayer and church discipline.

We accept them back in because we know that we are all sinners saved by grace



No - we believe it is possible for Calvinists to backslide....

Excellent you do approach those whom backslide and return with a good measure of grace. I had hoped as much.

I came across a Calvinist, some months ago, who claimed that one who is of the elect can never backslide. I was afraid that this might be a belief that was share by all Calvinist. Apparently not, and these forums create excellent opportunities to perhaps clarify our misunderstanding of other's beliefs.

 

[AndOne]

I came across a Calvinist, some months ago, who claimed that one who is of the elect can never backslide. I was afraid that this might be a belief that was share by all Calvinist. Apparently not, and these forums create excellent opportunities to perhaps clarify our misunderstanding of other's beliefs.

Cool - just to clarify though - just because one backslides doesn't mean to us that they have lost their salvation...

 

[Chris81]

first I have heard of it .

Great!

I do know many assume (Arminians ) backslideness is the same as Apostacy , they view any backslideness as losing salvation !

In Arminian theology we believe that a backslider has fallen from grace but does not necessarily mean they have lost their salvation. Instead we believe that Christ is at work pursuing the lost back to faith as the Shepard sought out the one lost sheep of his flock of one hundred.

John Wesley in his sermon A Call to Backsliders wrote "Indeed, it is so far from being an uncommon thing for a believer to fall and be restored, that it is rather uncommon to find any believers who are not conscious of having been backsliders from God, in a higher or lower degree, and perhaps more than once, before they were established in faith."

Now we still hold to the belief that one can still fall so far from grace to such an extent they are denied eternal life and are condemned to Hell. Now to a Calvinist that person never had real faith to begin with and thus never saved. In Arminian/Methodist tradition we would say that the individual had trusting faith at one time but that faith was not of a nature that lead to perseverance and ultimately salvation.

 

[AndOne]

In Arminian theology we believe that a backslider has fallen from grace but does not necessarily mean they have lost their salvation. Instead we believe that Christ is at work pursuing the lost back to faith as the Shepard sought out the one lost sheep of his flock of one hundred.

Does such a person get to heaven if they die before being restored?

 

[Chris81]

Cool - just to clarify though - just because one backslides doesn't mean to us that they have lost their salvation...

Too be technical about it in Arminian theology one can not really lose their salvation per say, because we do not believe it is the individual who posses salvation but rather it belongs exclusively to God.