How do you know for sure if youre saved?

[JustThreeThings]

It IS thoroughly saddening that people do begin to question their own salvation. I think alot of it has to do with us not fully understanding/comprehending what unconditional love (agape love) or unconditional forgiveness really means.

As humans we live on this idea that everything must be earned and perfected. It's a hard concept for the heart to fully grasp when a magnificent, awesome, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent GOD offers His perfect love and His acceptance. Now, I'm not saying that change in the heart does not have to take place or that God puts up with "any ole sin". The Bible is clear that the old man must be shed and the new man is born- Eph 4:22-24. The Bible is equally clear, however, in the same book that we are saved by grace alone and not of works- Eph 2:8-9. The point in all this is that as humans have this innate ability to be hard on ourselves and question the things that were freely given. Why? Because we KNOW WE DON'T DESERVE IT.

That is where faith comes in. The Bible says if we had the faith of even a mustard seed (btw extremely small) we could move mountains- Matt. 17:20. Let that resonate within you because that concept is hard to take seriously. God forgives and forgets, as far as the east is from the west. As long as we are doing what we know is to be right by God, then we have nothing to fear in this world. Sometimes we Christians like to make things so complicated...but really it's not. God loves us. We sin. God forgives. We sin. God loves us. We fail. God forgives. There is not need to worry if you are saved or not when you give 150% of your Christian effort everyday. 100%...that's all God asks for. He does the rest. Promise.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

You quote from Paul in Ephesians 2. Those people, like Paul had already received "the Spirit of grace" (Zech. 12:10) through faith (Gal. 3:2), just like other people Paul wrote to.
Paul also says that without receiving the Holy Spirit we are "none of his", we are still "in the flesh" (Romans 8:8-9), and according to Titus 3:5-6 we are not saved until we have received the "washing" (greek: loutrou = complete washing, "baptism") of the Holy Spirit which is shed upon people "abundantly" (i.e. not by measure).

When you are saved you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, this though is diferent from being baptised in the Spirit. Jesus never said that we must be baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved although He did command us to be filled with the Spirit (as did Paul) but as a prerequisite or condition for salvation, as you are saying, is contrary to scripture.

"that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." (John 3:15)

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

"And it shall come to pass, that whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)


"For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." (Romans 10:10)

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:15)

These verses are some of the most blatant in scripture on how to be saved. The terminology is precise and not confusing. For a true salvation through Jesus Christ we are to: Believe the gospel, call on the Lord, confess Jesus as Lord and repent from sin. These things are done through faith in Jesus Christ on account of His grace.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Ask yourself: was the repentant thief on the cross baptised in the Holy Spirit or was he saved by faith through grace alone by Jesus Christ?

 

[whatfor]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Matth. 7:21-23

Jesus is talking to the church.
If you do not follow all of His commandments, do you think you deserve salvation?

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

do you think you deserve salvation?

NO.

 

[whatfor]

I am not trying to make anyone else feel bad, I am feeling this way about what I am doing , or not doing.
I used to feel secure in my salvation, but now I feel I need to change some things in my life.
Sorry if this is not the place to put this.
I just feel a lot of us need to look at how we are living, are we living for Him or ourselves?

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

I am not trying to make anyone else feel bad, I am feeling this way about what I am doing , or not doing.
I used to feel secure in my salvation, but now I feel I need to change some things in my life.
Sorry if this is not the place to put this.
I just feel a lot of us need to look at how we are living, are we living for Him or ourselves?

Amen I agree with this, but basing our salvation on our works is not biblical, we are saved by faith in the redemption of Jesus Christ, our works do nothing to earn or gain salvation but they are only the fruit of the Lord's work in our lives. The Lord's word is the only guarantee though not our works.

 

[whatfor]

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
Rev 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I would that you were cold or hot.

Jesus is talking to the church when He says I know your works, salvation is a gift of grace , but Jesus also expects us to do our part.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
Rev 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I would that you were cold or hot.

Jesus is talking to the church when He says I know your works, salvation is a gift of grace , but Jesus also expects us to do our part.

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[aiki]

Jesus is talking to the church.
If you do not follow all of His commandments, do you think you deserve salvation?

No one deserves salvation, nor can they earn it. If we all got what we deserved, we'd all be in hell. Salvation is an act of grace and mercy on God's part. Thinking that you can do something to deserve salvation suggests you don't understand why you need salvation.

Selah.

 

[Johnnz]

Three factors will influence our thinking

a) How well faith is grounded in a relevant, intellectually responsible framework ie good knowledge

b) How soundly based the teaching you receive is rooted in the facts of the new covenant and the love and commitment of your Father

c) How related to life in the real world your faith is.

A lack of any one of these can result in doubts and uncertainty.

John
NZ

 

[iambren]

"No one deserves salvation, nor can they earn it. If we all got what we deserved, we'd all be in hell. Salvation is an act of grace and mercy on God's part. Thinking that you can do something to deserve salvation suggests you don't understand why you need salvation."

Beautifully stated Aiki; I agree totally. Now to respond to something earlier:

"We can't know all of God's mind, but He has shown us some of what He is thinking - certainly enough to be confident in our salvation."

Let's see--

We don't know all of God's mind. AGREE

He has shown SOME of His thinking. AGREE

Enough to be confident in salvation. DISAGREE


Where did you go from "some" to confident? On what basis did you go from the partial to the certain?
How does not knowing all of God's mind mean that you cannot be perfectly certain of your salvation? I don't know all of what goes on in my earthly father's mind but I am absolutely certain I am his son. Uncertainty at one point doesn't necessarily preclude certainty in another.

The highest certainty of personal salvation comes from the one with the highest authority. Since we are incomplete in our knowledge of the mind of God we would be presumptuous to claim complete assurance when He only totally knows.
I don't mean to say that He intends for us to live in eternal insecurity; there are plenty of "assurance" scriptures, as has been raised. But for me to push absolutes is constrained by logic and by observation of people around me. Like the parable of the seed/sower life appears, people who would claim the assurance scriptures, only to snuff out over time. Some feel the "burning in their bosum", or an emotional warming to "Just as I Am" only to walk from the faith later on. I myself have been saved for 40 years, have spoken in tongues(if that's important), witnessed, preach/teach the Word, and believe that I am a chosen child of God. But if I wander or persist in a sinful way my thought is "maybe I'm not a child of God, I may have just talked myself into it" and that MAY be true. But I accept that His grace goes far, He will cause me to persevere and to THAT extent my salvation is secure.

 

[StormHawk]

You have not answered any of the points I made!
I'll try one more simple one:

Show from scripture when the disciples were born again.

When you are saved you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, this though is diferent from being baptised in the Spirit.

Please supply a scripture or example that demonstrates this doctrine.

All the verses you quote were written by people who had received the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, to people that had received the same... they had an understanding of what it means to call on the Lord, and believe on him. It is utter nonsense to divorce believing on Jesus from what he said "believers" would later receive and what they all did receive!

Ask yourself: was the repentant thief on the cross baptised in the Holy Spirit or was he saved by faith through grace alone by Jesus Christ?

1) How do you judge his heart that he was repentant?
Where was Jesus "that day"?
You want to believe "paradise" means heaven because it suits your message but the fact remains that Jesus was in the garden that day, "paradise" means precisely that.

Matthew and Mark's account of the conversation say that both thieves spoke mockingly to Jesus precisely before the darkness came.

If he was sincere he would have had a greater revelation than any of the disciples who had been with him for 3 years... and this would have been a great comfort to Jesus, thereby nullifying the prophecy:

"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20-21)

2) But, even if you find some way of believing he was repentant, it's still a "thief's gospel", a red herring since he died before the New Covenant began by the Spirit being given (John 7:37-39, John 16:7)

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Please supply a scripture or example that demonstrates this doctrine.

Well other then the scriptures that you ignored in my previous post, even the ones spoken by Jesus himself about believing being the source by which we are given the gift of salvation, here is a passage that clearly separates the act of salvation from baptism in the Holy Spirit:

12But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
14Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:12-17)

The men and women there believed the words of Phillip concerning the Lord Jesus and they were baptised and according to this verse they are saved:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

Notice the verse doesn't say "whoever believes and is baptised and then speaks in tongues will be saved." But you sir are adding these words and this is an act condemed in scripture (adding to the bible).

1) How do you judge his heart that he was repentant?
Where was Jesus "that day"?
You want to believe "paradise" means heaven because it suits your message but the fact remains that Jesus was in the garden that day, "paradise" means precisely that.

Matthew and Mark's account of the conversation say that both thieves spoke mockingly to Jesus precisely before the darkness came.

If he was sincere he would have had a greater revelation than any of the disciples who had been with him for 3 years... and this would have been a great comfort to Jesus, thereby nullifying the prophecy:

"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20-21)

2) But, even if you find some way of believing he was repentant, it's still a "thief's gospel", a red herring since he died before the New Covenant began by the Spirit being given (John 7:37-39, John 16:7)

Really, this is a horrible interpretation of what took place and it does not bare witness, it is false.

When dying the thief said this:

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." (Luke 23:42)

Are you saying that the Lord Jesus rejected this man's cry for mercy? If so you do not serve the Lord that I do.

1) How do you judge his heart that he was repentant?

You have read this passage before correct? It proves he was surely repentant for what he did..:

We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." (Luke 23:41)

I have a question for you: Can you show a scripture where speaking in tongues is required for salvation?

 

[aiki]

I myself have been saved for 40 years, have spoken in tongues(if that's important), witnessed, preach/teach the Word, and believe that I am a chosen child of God. But if I wander or persist in a sinful way my thought is "maybe I'm not a child of God, I may have just talked myself into it" and that MAY be true.

I hope you won't be offended when I say this, but I just can't get my head around this view of one's salvation! First off, I ask myself where the line between "still saved" and "now you've lost it" is? As far as I can tell, no one knows - and God hasn't said. Does it take two sins, or four, or ten? Or maybe it has to be a habitual sin over months, or perhaps years? The fact that the line is unknown and thus no one can be sure if they've crossed it or not seems to me to be a very big problem with this saved-and-then-lost stuff. Second, how is it that I can do nothing to earn my salvation and yet, once I'm saved, I am completely responsible for retaining it? Scripture plainly indicates the reverse:

"Faithful is He who has called you, who also will do it." 1 Thess. 5:24

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ

Hebrews 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...

Romans 8:37-39
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Third, the basis for my acceptance with God is not my deeds, but Christ's perfect righteousness. God accepts me because I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ; He sees me in Christ and this - and only this - makes me acceptable to Him. When does this cease to be the case? For it must cease if my righteousness (or lack thereof) can alter God's acceptance of me. It makes no sense to be granted initial acceptance by God on a basis that has nothing to do with my righteousness and then, once obtained, to be expected to keep that acceptance on the basis of my righteousness. Why the change? Why isn't what brings me into fellowship with God sufficient to continue as the basis for it? Christ's righteousness is perfect, after all, right?


I think, too, of the parable of the Prodigal Son in which Christ depicts the nature of our relationship with our Heavenly Father. At no point in the story is the Prodigal Son ever not his father's son. Their fellowship is broken by the rebellious choices and behavior of the son, but their relationship never is. When the Prodigal returns home soiled and spent, his father, who has been watching and waiting for his return, rushes out to give him a welcoming hug and kiss. He then declares, "My son was dead and is alive again, he was lost and is found!" The father acknowledges his wayward boy as his son, not a disowned child whose evil conduct has broken all familial connections. And this is, I believe, the case for all who are genuinely children of God. Once a child of God, always a child of God - even if that child grows wayward and wicked.

I believe the reason some Christians hold to the saved-and-lost view is that they believe fear is a better motive for obedience to God than love. But Scripture defies this kind of thinking:

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

From the very beginning God has sought our love, not our fear. When we operate as His children, however subtly, from a motive of fear, we are not "made perfect in love" and we stand outside of what God intends in our fellowship with Him.

But I accept that His grace goes far, He will cause me to persevere and to THAT extent my salvation is secure.

Selah.

 

[StormHawk]

Well other then the scriptures that you ignored in my previous post, even the ones spoken by Jesus himself about believing being the source by which we are given the gift of salvation, here is a passage that clearly separates the act of salvation from baptism in the Holy Spirit:

12But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized

So, you believe Simon the Sorceror was saved?
Even though he had a wicked unrepentant heart?

You say you like things "precise and not confusing", please answer these simple questions:

1) When the bible says people "received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19) does it mean that have not received the Holy Spirit at all until before that instant?


2) When the bible says that "he saves us by the washing of regeneration & renewing of the Spirit which he shed abundantly" (Titus 3:5-6) does that mean a person is not saved until they have had that experience?


3) Had the Samarians received the Holy Spirit before the apostles prayed with them?... yes or no.

Thanks.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

Notice the verse doesn't say "whoever believes and is baptised and then speaks in tongues will be saved." But you sir are adding these words and this is an act condemed in scripture (adding to the bible).

Please read the next verse where Jesus says:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; ...
they shall speak with new tongues; ...


The only question is, when?

Different signs follow at different times, when the opportunity/need arises.
All the other signs listed had already been encountered (see Luke 10:9, 19)

No believer in Jesus had spioken in tongues up to that point, at Pentecost all did - why?
Simply because tongues is the sign of receiving the Holy Spirit who was not yet in people prior to Pentecost (John 14:17, 29).

Jesus death was to enable people to receive that Spirit (Galatians 3:13-14)
Calvary was to enable Pentecost.

Miss Pentecost and you make Calvary of no effect.
Jesus gave his life but you still need to receive it.

 

[iambren]

Aiki

I think we are in agreement more than it appears. I am a Calvinist, therefore I believe God has chosen the Elect for His good pleasure and it is earned through Christ's blood and is not grounded on anything we might do or not do.

My statement is not on the efficacy of that salvation but the KNOWLEDGE of that salvation. Obviously, there was no booming voice that said to me "You are one of my chosen!". So we turn to how we subjectively grasp the objective truth of our election. I often say "I believe in once saved always saved" but not in "eternal security". The first is God's business while the second I feel to be an illusion. There are many affirming scriptures of assurance but I can't take them to an absolute 100%. Experience in life has taught me that there are many (who would quote those same scriptures) who end up falling away and are not part of the kingdom (really they never were). If I turned my back and walked from God I believe He would woo me back; but if not I never was one of his sheep.

To sum: on our side assurance of salvation is a subjective thing. Only He knows objectively our status on His side. We are left with standing on persevering FAITH. If we could actually ascertain 100% then where would faith be needed?
Does this help?

 

[fm107]

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

 

[aiki]

Aiki

I think we are in agreement more than it appears. I am a Calvinist, therefore I believe God has chosen the Elect for His good pleasure and it is earned through Christ's blood and is not grounded on anything we might do or not do.

My statement is not on the efficacy of that salvation but the KNOWLEDGE of that salvation. Obviously, there was no booming voice that said to me "You are one of my chosen!". So we turn to how we subjectively grasp the objective truth of our election. I often say "I believe in once saved always saved" but not in "eternal security". The first is God's business while the second I feel to be an illusion. There are many affirming scriptures of assurance but I can't take them to an absolute 100%. Experience in life has taught me that there are many (who would quote those same scriptures) who end up falling away and are not part of the kingdom (really they never were). If I turned my back and walked from God I believe He would woo me back; but if not I never was one of his sheep.

To sum: on our side assurance of salvation is a subjective thing. Only He knows objectively our status on His side. We are left with standing on persevering FAITH. If we could actually ascertain 100% then where would faith be needed?
Does this help?

Yes, I think I understand better where you're coming from. I'm not as reluctant as you are to declare my certainty about my salvation for the reasons I've given, but I can see why you would come down on the matter as you have.

Thanks for the discussion!

Selah.