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How do you keep the Sabbath Holy?

Bob S

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May I also express that if it is the same covenant then it should never have been labeled NEW. Why did Paul write that the ten commandments WERE temporary? 2Cor3:6-11. Why did he write that the Law was until Jesus? Gal 3:19. Why did he write that Jesus ended the Law? Eph2:15

His Law is the Law of Love. Love is what is written in our hearts. If it were the Torah that is written in our hearts then if you follow your hearts direction you would be keeping all of the 613 laws that pertained to most of the Israelites. We all know, even the Bible scholars you allude, our hearts are not telling us this.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The law is not a one size fits all. There are lots of references to the law that mean different things. There is no reference to the Ten Commandments as ending. Will God ever want us to worship other gods? The answer is no and the Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten so you either accept them as they are or you ae denying all of them. James 2:10-12 Matthew 5:19

God says those who love Him will keep His commandments Exodus 20:6 and love is defined in scripture as keeping the commandments of God 1 John 5:3 which of course includes God's holy day. According to God we keep His commandments because of love Exodus 20:6 breaking them seems like it means the opposite.
 
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sparow

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I am not sure what you are questioning. My understanding is that the theme of the thread is meaning of " Holy" in "keep the day Holy".

The Law in the Catechism is similar to the Law of God; the Catholic Church teaches that the Law is abrogated, so theirs is a replacement for God's Law.

I might ask, what sect of the SDA do you belong; maybe the Catholic sect. I suggest you discuss this matter with a real SDA Pastor.
 
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BobRyan

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I might ask, what sect of the SDA do you belong; maybe the Catholic sect. I suggest you discuss this matter with a real SDA Pastor.

I quoted Catholic sources to show the actual Catholic statement on the topic of affirming all ten of the commandments. I agree with you that they claim to have made a change to the Sabbath.

========================
from "The Faith Explained"

Amazon describes "The Faith Explained" this way.

“The Faith Explained: by Leo Trese -- The Catholic commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican II

This RC document explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'" ((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
"we know that in the Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church.

The Faith Explained (Page 242)
"changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". [/quote]

"The Faith Explained" (page 243.)
"we know that in the O.T. it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church


=======================

No wonder some in the evangelical/protestant tradition object to the change.
 
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BobRyan

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May I suggest that today, and since the new covenant was ratified at Calvary with the blood of Jesus, there is no such command to keep a day Holy.

May I suggest that when we actually read the words of the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 and repeated verbatim in Heb 8:6-12 we find no such "delete commandments of God" language in it. Rather in the actual New Covenant - we are told that God "writes His Law on our heart and mind" - instead of deleting it.

Exegesis requires that we consider the fact that this means the definition for that law has to be consistent with the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

May I also express that if it is the same covenant then it should never have been labeled NEW.

Then your argument is "with the text" ... it is the "NEW " covenant both in Jer 31:3-34 AND in Heb 8:6-12.

The OLD "obey and live" covenant was made with Adam in Eden in Gen 2 - as we all know.

And the type/symbol of it is in the nation-covenant with Israel.


Why did Paul write that the ten commandments WERE temporary? 2Cor3:6-11.

Praise God that is not a quote of 2 Cor 3:6-11.
Praise God Paul did no such thing as you suggest.
Praise God Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 and that the UNIT ot TEN - REMAINS as the source where "the FIRST commandment with a promise is 'Honor your Father and mother" Eph6:2
Praise God the NT teaches "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5.
Praise God the NT teaches "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Praise God - Bible details matter.

Not one text says "The ten commandments have ended"
Not one text says "the commandments of God have ended"

No wonder Bible scholars in all major denominations affirm this point.

Of course you have free will and can speculate as you wish.
 
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Bob S

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Well, some of you are denying what Paul so plainly wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 yet you refuse to explain why you do so. You refer to other verses that seem to you to refute Paul's claim that the ten commandments were temporary. Why have you refused to critique the actual verses I present to you?

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Verse six should give us the realization that the new covenant is not the letters of the old one.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, That statement plainly tells us that it was the ten commandments that came with glory and that they WERE the ministry that brought death. WERE is past tense as can one can plainly see. If Paul had written ARE the ministry of death we would have to conclude they ARE still enforced, but he didn't so we have to recon with what he wrote not what we would have liked for him to have written.

transitory though it was,
Paul continues the thought with the fact that the glory of the ten commandments were temporary.

8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
Remember Jesus giving us the comforter. Here Paul is telling us that since the ten commandments as being the guiding words of the old covenant we now have the Holy Spirit as our glorious guide.

9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
That is not a question, it is a fact. The ten commandments brought condemnation; the Holy Spirit brings righteousness. BROUGHT is past tense as well as is WAS, IS is present tense.

10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
NIV

Verses ten and eleven add to the fact that Israelites today are not under what came with glory. The ten temporary commandments have NO glory compared to the everlasting Holy Spirit.

May I also remind some that 2Cor3:6-11 is the only reference mentioned in the New Testament that refers to TEN commandments. Every other place in New Testament scripture where it mentions commandments there is no TEN attached. Only is Exodus and Deuteronomy is the term used. By adding a TEN before commandments is adding a different meaning to what the author had in mind and is Biblically not allowed
 
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HIM

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It has been explained to you numerous times. And No one is denying anything other than your interpretation. Just the fact that God has said that the New Covenant is that He will put His laws in our Heart and minds is enough to debunk your ideology.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Verse six should give us the realization that the new covenant is not the letters of the old one.
The verse says letter not letters. It is the ministry that has changed not what was ministered. Verse 6 is being said in context to what is previously stated. The vessels in which are used for the ministry are no longer tables of stone and ink on parchment but us. Through the Spirit of the Living God upon our hearts.

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;


Right the New Covenant. For God has said. I will put my LAWS in your hearts and in your minds. No Longer on tables of stone and parchment but on the fleshly tables of the heart through His Spirit. Not that we are sufficient in and of our selves. Our sufficiency is of God through His Spirit. It was never meant to be on stone and parchment in the first place. In God's verbal giving of the Ten Israel cried out for God to stop least they die. The Tables of Stone and the ink on Parchment was an answer to their plea for God to stop and have Moses talk to them. They chose this because the hardness of their hearts not willing to accept the Spirit of God's Word upon their hearts.
No. Here Paul is telling us that the Ministry which is of stone and ink on parchment. The one in which the people said they will do. Is Nothing compared to the glory of that which God is now working in us both to will and do His good pleasure through His Spirit. For He has said, He will put His law in our hearts and in our minds.


In all places of the giving of the New Covenant the Ten are never mentioned. However The commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law which is referred to as the Word is what is to be in the heart in Deut. 30 are. And in Jeremiah 31 is said to be the Law. And all this is through His Spirit. This includes the Ten and so much more. For He will take away our stony hearts and give us hearts of flesh and a new Spirit causing us to walk in His statutes and keep His judgements. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.


Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, some of you are denying what Paul so plainly wrote in 2Cor3:6-11

That is the "accusation" but that is not what we see here in this thread -- you quote no one denying 2 Cor 3 at all.

What is more your own speculation that Paul said "the ten commandments WERE temporary" is not in 2 Cor 3 at all..

You refer to other verses that seem to you to refute Paul's claim

They refute your accusations... is that we you mean? When we refute your accusations then in your thinking this is "refuting Paul"??

seriously??

the ten commandments were temporary. Why have you refused to critique the actual verses I present to you?

Because your repeat of "the ten commandments were temporary" is you quoting you... not 2 Cor 3.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant


Which Paul points out in Heb 8:6-12 to be the SAME New Covenant that is in Jer 31:31-34 - the OLD Testament. Where instead of deleting the Law of God - it is "written on the heart and mind".

How is this helping the accusation you keep making??


Verse six should give us the realization that the new covenant is not the letters of the old one.


That is speculation that Paul flatly refutes in Eph 6:2 (as has been quoted for you dozens of times by now -- just by me alone if not counting anyone else).

Paul gives the EXACT LETTER of Ex 20:12 and says "THIS is the first commandment with a promise" in still valid unit of TEN and still applies - just as it is written.

By not addressing the details in these oft-posted responses to your accusations you end up circling around and simply repeating them - only to have the same texts that answer the accusation posted "again." How does that help the case you are trying to make?
 
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BobRyan

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As has often been posted - in Rom 3 Paul points out that the commandments of God define what sin is and condemn all mankind as sinners in need of the Gospel. That is the very function of God's Commandments for the lost - to lead them to Christ.

But the false speculation that this means it is ok to take God's name in vain or that the commandment to Honor parents no longer exists for the Christian is flatly refuted by Paul in Eph 6 and 7 and 13 and refuted by James in James 2 and refuted by Christ in Matt 19...



That is two gospels not one. Paul does not approve of two gospels see Gal 1:6-9.

Nobody was saved by law in OT or NT
Nobody was saved apart from the holy Spirit and grace in OT or NT.

Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 because of the ONE Gospel - the one NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 in both OT and NT.


We keep having this same conversation over the years here - but I am happy to keep making the point if you wish.
 
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Bob S

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Bob, all I can see that you are doing is denying what is written in those verses by using other text for your denial. This is the very same thing other Sabbath observers have done if they ever recognize what Paul wrote. Let's discuss Rom 3, Eph and the other verses you use to refute Paul's 2Cor3:6-11 telling us that the ten commandments, the ministry of death, WERE temporary and we now have the Holy Spirit as our guide. Let's also discuss Eph2:10-15, Col2:16-17, Matt5:17-20 and 1Jn3:19-24.

The old covenant ended and that means that the Law contained in that covenant ended too. Jeus Christ is the new High Priest and Hebrews tells us when we have a new priest, we also have changes in the laws. Paul recognized this and we have it in his letter to the Corinthians. Those verses stand alone in explaining the fate of Israel's guide, the ten commandments and, of course, all that is written in the Book of the Law.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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How do you get from God saying I will write My laws in our heart and minds Hebrews 8:10 to all the laws I previously gave you have ended? Jesus teaches and quotes directly from the Ten Commandments Matthew 5:19-30 because He came to do the will of His Father John 6:38 and came to magnify His Fathers law, not make lesser or abolish Isaiah 42:21. The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 and you either except all or none James 2:10-12, Matthew 5:19 and since we are told to keep the commandments of God until the very end Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15 I am going to believe God and Jesus but we have free will to test this theory where God says showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments Exodus 20:6 doesn’t really mean that.
 
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sparow

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"The Faith Explained" (page 243.)
"we know that in the O.T. it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church


=======================

No wonder some in the evangelical/protestant tradition object to the change.[/QUOTE]


Regarding the topic; keeping the day Holy implies that the default for the day is Holy and keeping it Holy would be to not upset the status quo by doing something un-Holy, on the other hand something is required to be done; and I wrestle to understand what.

This Catholic debate is off topic, while in the right forum, unless we consider the Catholic Church in the context of the topic. Is it possible for a Catholic assembly to be Holy according to the commandment. The answer is no; for no other reason than they have abrogated the Law of God; even if the law, the ten the Catholics use were word for word the same as the Law of God, there is still a difference and it is this; God is the authority behind his Law, and the Pope on his Holy seat is the authority behind his law; it boils down to who is the boss.
 
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Bob S

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Why do you keep referring to the ten commandments as being God's laws. How about the following;
God’s Covenant With Noah
9 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come:

Yet you never mention that covenant as being God's laws, why not??? In fact, Messianic teaching forbids the eating of every living thing. Do you believe someone today who sheds the blood of another should experience the same? Do you teach keeping that command? It says for all generations to come, what happened? The covenant with Noah has no ending. It is unlike the covenant God made with Israel. God's covenant with Israel was an "IF" covenant. If you do these things I will. And guess what, the old covenant was not about salvation, it was about making a HOLY nation Ex19:5-6; 3 Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the children of Israel: 4 ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I lifted you up on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, IF you will faithfully obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My special possession out of all the nations, for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you will be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Of course, we all know Israel failed miserably at keeping the covenant and since it was an IF covenant it came to an end at Calvary when the new and better covenant was ratified with Jesus blood. That is the very reason Paul wrote in 2Cor3 that the ten commandments were temporary.

Are not the laws found in the Book of the Law God's commands? If not please explain why they are not.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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A covenant means an agreement, not laws. God has laws, commandments, statues, judgements and ordinances.

The Ten Commandments is what I was referring to and what I quoted so not sure why you're changing the subject.
 
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Bob S

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A covenant means an agreement, not laws. God has laws, commandments, statues, judgements and ordinances.
I believe you may have a mistaken understanding of a covenant. Covenants contain rules of the covenant and those rules are referred to as commands as you can see in the covenant with Noah.

The Ten Commandments is what I was referring to and what I quoted so not sure why you're changing the subject.
Yes I know what you refer to as God's commands and I am explaining that God's commands are all the commands He has ever made with mankind. So, you cannot with any authority tell anyone that when it says keep the commands of God it only means the ten commandments. In fact, it is a complete misnomer to try to tell us that the meaning is the ten.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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cov·e·nant
[ˈkəvənənt]
NOUN
  1. an agreement:
    "there was a covenant between them that her name was never to be mentioned"
    synonyms:
    contract · compact · treaty · pact · accord · deal · bargain · settlement ·
    [more]

According to God, not everything is a commandment and these mean different things.

2 Kings 17:34
To this day they continue practicing the former rituals; they do not fear the Lord, nor do they follow their statutes or their ordinances, or the law and commandment which the Lord had commanded the children of Jacob, whom He named Israel,
 
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Bob S

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Sorry SB, you certainly have not proved that any of the verses containing "God's commandments" should be regarded as referring to the ten commandments. Denying that fact by downplaying the rules God has given to Noah, Abraham and some of the Law of Moses by their being referred to as ordinances, laws and statues does not negate the fact that you cannot tell us the commandments of God are referring to the ten commandments. You are violating the rule of not adding your own thoughts to scripture unless you are able to somehow prove your point.

John in 1Jn 3:19-24 tell us what Jesus command is for mankind. We are to believe and love. If the fourth commandment really had a "halo" around it wouldn't you think John would have mentioned it? This is especially so because according to the teachings of your church we are lost because we don't keep the Sabbath given only to Israel. All mankind will be lost, according to Ellen if it is not kept to the letter and, of course, her added rules. Heaven surely will be a desolate place if Ellen was correct.

Of the twenty million SDAs around the World how many would you say actually keep the Sabbath according to the standards of Law? I have a good idea because I rubbed elbows with them for nearly forty years.
 
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Leaf473

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Of the twenty million SDAs around the World how many would you say actually keep the Sabbath according to the standards of Law?
I'm interested in hearing your experiences, once other people have had a chance to answer.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I'm interested in hearing your experiences, once other people have had a chance to answer.
No one knows what twenty million people do and only God is the righteous Judge, for someone to make a statement as such it will be between them and God, just like the warning we receiving for teaching others to its okay break the commandments Matthew 5:19. Even if someone had examples of others not keeping the Sabbath, that will not negate everyone's own responsibility to obey God. God does not judge us on what other people do or don't do.
 
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Leaf473

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Yes, that's why I said
your experiences

I'm interested in hearing Bob S's experiences. He may have only interacted with a tiny percentage of the 20 million.

But it's like someone going to visit Japan. They come back, and you ask them what it was like. They didn't meet every single Japanese person, but they have some ideas about the culture.

In the same way, Bob S will have insights into the culture he spent 40 years in.

Of course, you can share your experiences, too.

If it becomes a lot of posts, we can move over to the denomination specific theology section, or something.
 
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