How do you Justify using Leviticus?

[Q2004]

How do the apponents of gay marriage, and "the homosexual lifestyle" justify using Leviticus as grounds for their belief, when slavery is supported in Leviticus?

 

[Toboe]

They will say that slavery was different in those times or something like that.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Because it supports their position?

 

[shinbits]

How do the apponents of gay marriage, and "the homosexual lifestyle" justify using Leviticus as grounds for their belief, when slavery is supported in Leviticus?

By using Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9

1. 1 Corinthians 6:9 (Whole Chapter)
   "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders "

It's not just Leviticus.

 

[hernyaccent]

By using Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9

1. 1 Corinthians 6:9 (Whole Chapter)
   "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders "

It's not just Leviticus.

That's fine but they use Leviticus more.

 

[Ananel]

By using Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9

1. 1 Corinthians 6:9 (Whole Chapter)
   "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders "

It's not just Leviticus.

Don't forget 1 Timothy 1:10. It wouldn't be right and proper to forget that one too, would it?

10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine (NIV, biblegateway)

Waitaminute... I was sure there was homosexuality in there somewhere...

10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (NASB, biblegateway)

Ahhh, there it is.... but why would the same word get translated as Adulterer and Homosexual Offender? *scratches his head* Oh, that's right!

The two lists are poorly translated in the cases of homosexuality. Three words are found in these passages that are used to relate to homosexual sex: Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi. Pornia means pervert. That's all it really means. It refers to sexual perversion, but makes no statement as to what that perversion is. It is far too general to relate to homosexual sex. Malakoi refers to softness or effeminacy, with implications of perversion. The term is used to refer to a man who is too passionate and emotional, and who acts upon these. It relates to the Grecian concepts of gender identity. The man was not to be emotional in this fashion. If one stretches the meaning of the word, examples are found where Malakoi may refer to the 'bottom' partner of pederasty. This is a relationship wherein a teenage boy traded sexual favors with an older man in return for guidance and training. It was common within Greek society and accepted in Roman society. Arsenokoitas is a compound word derived from the Greek words for man and bed. While this sounds like a clear reference to homosexuality to our modern ears, there is a problem. The word does not appear at any point prior to Paul's letters. To our knowledge, he created the term himself. Its usage in all other cases I am aware of either represents something akin to an aggressive sexual predator or, more commonly, the 'top' partner in pederasty. At most these verses could possibly have listed pederasty as a crime, but not homosexual sex alone. You cannot read into the text the fact that, because something condemned includes another thing, that other thing is automatically condemned as well. For example, a person who breaks the commandment about not bearing false testimony against one's neighbor must communicate to do so. Communication is not condemned, is it? The condemnation of pederasty cannot be clearly related, even in consideration of Jewish morals that Paul is familiar with, to a condemnation of homosexual sex. Look at http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html for further details on the specifics of Arsenokoites and Malakoi.

(Warning, the above link is to a gay research site. The link itself is clean, but you have been warned that it is easily considered a biased, albeit in my view exegetically accurate, source.)

 

[ChristianCenturion]

That's fine but they use Leviticus more.

You mean like this?:

Leviticus 19:18
" 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Oh, you probably mean like this:

Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Hmm... now why would I have a problem with that?
How about we look at all of Leviticus 18?
Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.


6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.

13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.

14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.

16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.

21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "
~~~

Having sex with one's mother, one's sister, the same gender, with an animal...
I'm not getting it, what part of this doesn't make sense? And where is the confusion that this was applied to both Jew and Gentile?

 

[Arnold_Philips]

How do the apponents of gay marriage, and "the homosexual lifestyle" justify using Leviticus as grounds for their belief, when slavery is supported in Leviticus?

I think the question is how do they decide which laws in Leviticus to keep and which to abolish? Which are the "moral" laws that don't change and which are the ceremonial?

 

[kdet]

In the OT, there were three types of law:

-Ceremonial
then - sacrifices for sin, day of atonement, etc.
now - communion

-Civil
then - if your bull kills your neighbors goat, you have to give him your 3 best goats, etc.
now - if you speed, you'll get a ticket.

-Moral
then - don't kill, don't sleep with the same sex, etc.
now - don't kill, don't sleep with the same sex, etc.

Ceremonial laws changed when the new covenant was established in Christ and civil laws change depending on the times and the government you live under. Notice that moral laws didn't change.

Homosexuality is discussed in both the OT and the NT. It is a moral law against God's original plan.

Hope that helps.



By XfacTor

 

[Arnold_Philips]

In the OT, there were three types of law:

-Ceremonial
then - sacrifices for sin, day of atonement, etc.
now - communion

-Civil
then - if your bull kills your neighbors goat, you have to give him your 3 best goats, etc.
now - if you speed, you'll get a ticket.

-Moral
then - don't kill, don't sleep with the same sex, etc.
now - don't kill, don't sleep with the same sex, etc.

Ceremonial laws changed when the new covenant was established in Christ and civil laws change depending on the times and the government you live under. Notice that moral laws didn't change.

Homosexuality is discussed in both the OT and the NT. It is a moral law against God's original plan.

Hope that helps.



By XfacTor

And how are these distinctions scriptural?

 

[Jebediah]

Don't forget 1 Timothy 1:10. It wouldn't be right and proper to forget that one too, would it?

10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine (NIV, biblegateway)

Waitaminute... I was sure there was homosexuality in there somewhere...

10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (NASB, biblegateway)

Ahhh, there it is.... but why would the same word get translated as Adulterer and Homosexual Offender? *scratches his head* Oh, that's right!

The two lists are poorly translated in the cases of homosexuality. Three words are found in these passages that are used to relate to homosexual sex: Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi. Pornia means pervert. That's all it really means. It refers to sexual perversion, but makes no statement as to what that perversion is. It is far too general to relate to homosexual sex. Malakoi refers to softness or effeminacy, with implications of perversion. The term is used to refer to a man who is too passionate and emotional, and who acts upon these. It relates to the Grecian concepts of gender identity. The man was not to be emotional in this fashion. If one stretches the meaning of the word, examples are found where Malakoi may refer to the 'bottom' partner of pederasty. This is a relationship wherein a teenage boy traded sexual favors with an older man in return for guidance and training. It was common within Greek society and accepted in Roman society. Arsenokoitas is a compound word derived from the Greek words for man and bed. While this sounds like a clear reference to homosexuality to our modern ears, there is a problem. The word does not appear at any point prior to Paul's letters. To our knowledge, he created the term himself. Its usage in all other cases I am aware of either represents something akin to an aggressive sexual predator or, more commonly, the 'top' partner in pederasty. At most these verses could possibly have listed pederasty as a crime, but not homosexual sex alone. You cannot read into the text the fact that, because something condemned includes another thing, that other thing is automatically condemned as well. For example, a person who breaks the commandment about not bearing false testimony against one's neighbor must communicate to do so. Communication is not condemned, is it? The condemnation of pederasty cannot be clearly related, even in consideration of Jewish morals that Paul is familiar with, to a condemnation of homosexual sex. Look at http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html for further details on the specifics of Arsenokoites and Malakoi.

(Warning, the above link is to a gay research site. The link itself is clean, but you have been warned that it is easily considered a biased, albeit in my view exegetically accurate, source.)

I like these arguments, but how do you respond to these rebuttals to that?

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/romans_malick.pdf
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/homosexuality_corinthians6.pdf

Since my conversion I have been looking for a way to not suddenly become a "bigot" when I was marching in the streets for gay marriage not too long ago. Unfortunately all the "it wasn't what they really meant" and "Paul didn't know any better" and such and so forth keep getting shot down by other things I read.

 

[Merlin]

Hello,

If one is a Christian, then using Leviticus defines homosexuality as sin.

I personally would use Genesis though.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

And how are these distinctions scriptural?

Of course you don't get an answer because they're not, they're opinion. It's simply a way of finding reasoning for what they want to enforce and finding reasoning to not enforce that which they don't want to enforce.

But, honestly it's what both sides do. We just prefer to keep accusing the other side of it

But for the record, I don't push Leviticus on anyone because I don't buy the whole thing.

 

[invisible trousers]

It's justified by using it only against people you don't like.

 

[k]

Regardless of the issue, Christians cannot use the OT because by doctrine, they are not bound by the OT.

 

[Merlin]

Regardless of the issue, Christians cannot use the OT because by doctrine, they are not bound by the OT.

That would depend more on if they are discussing definitions of sin or how Christians should live their lives.

 

[k]

That would depend more on if they are discussing definitions of sin or how Christians should live their lives.

The former is useful for discerning the latter, but at the end of the day, no Christian is bound by ANY law of the OT. IOW, Grace is not confined to humans' comprehension abilities.

 

[Merlin]

The former is useful for discerning the latter, but at the end of the day, no Christian is bound by ANY law of the OT. IOW, Grace is not confined to humans' comprehension abilities.

I agree.
But the OP said:
'How do the apponents of gay marriage, and "the homosexual lifestyle" justify using Leviticus as grounds for their belief, when slavery is supported in Leviticus?'

In that context, in order to answer the question, the levitical law defines homosexuality as sin.

 

[k]

I agree.
But the OP said:
'How do the apponents of gay marriage, and "the homosexual lifestyle" justify using Leviticus as grounds for their belief, when slavery is supported in Leviticus?'

In that context, in order to answer the question, the levitical law defines homosexuality as sin.

That is the gap in the bridge...to use that argument we must then align all other OT laws w/ sin as well.

Who among us is able to live even 1 minute without commiting at LEAST one sin? Leviticus also calls for the stoning of children. Are there quarries behind churches?

 

[Merlin]

That is the gap in the bridge...to use that argument we must then align all other OT laws w/ sin as well.

Who among us is able to live even 1 minute without commiting at LEAST one sin? Leviticus also calls for the stoning of children. Are there quarries behind churches?

Again I agree.
But that doesn't answer the OP does it?

I never said I advocated following levitical law.
Indeed, I answered earlier that I would not use the law as a reason to not support the 'homosexual lifestyle'.