How do you interpret these verses?

[CharlesYTK]

Isaiah 56: [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

This was and is the plan of God to bring the Gentiles into the faith and salvation of Israel. Jesus came to make a way for the Gentiles to be made into one man with Israel and that all could come to the father as one people, through the atonement of His blood. Gentiles are brought near to God, grafted into Israel and made partakers of her covenants. Israel is not desolved along with the covenants and promises.

EPH 2: [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[Rafael]

God's plan to bring in Gentiles began with His promise to Abrahmam when He said that He would make Abraham the father of many nations or hamon goyim - multitudes of gentiles.(Gen.17:4)
He accomplished this when the teo houses of Israel were split soon after King Solomon's reign. There were then Israel as the northern territory and Judah as the southern. Both has seperate kings, and because of their sins, they were carried away into captivity according to their sins. Because Israel was so prone to worshipping the foreign gods of the Gentiles, He made them as "not His people" or loammi, but they would become "Sons of the living God" (Hosea 1:9,10; Romans 9:25,26).

The head tribe of the northern territory is Ephraim, and Ephraim received the "firstborn" blessing from Jacob as the receiver of the promise from God to be fruitful, but Judah received the sceptre of power to always be king. The "firstborn" rights are very important.(Gen.48:20; Gen 49:10)
Ephraim (Israel) was absorbed into the Gentile nations to become the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Notice who Jesus says He has come for:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Notice, too, who the New Covenant is for:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Paul spends at lest three chapters of Romans explaining how important the natural branches are to God and that the grafted in were not to boast against the natural. Many of us who are the Church and firstborn of God heard the voice of Jesus because we are part of the lost tribes of Israel, but never knew it as our heritage and that our forfathers had been related to the lost tribes of Israel. Jesus said that we would here His voice:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Judah was taken into captivity only for a short time and always held on tenaciously to their identity with their God. They returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt the temple and the wall, but later rejected Messiah when He came. This blindness was only temporary and for the benefit of the Gentiles and for the house of Israel. Someday, God has promised to reunite both houses of Israel and restore them to their land. (Ez. 37:16, 17) There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that speak of this restoration where ALL Israel will be saved which means both houses of Israel and all their companions (grafted in wild branches).(Rom. 11:25,26)

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God."

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Ephesians 2:[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.

Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

 

[Remnant]

Wouldn't you say that now all who come to the Father (unto God in one body) is Israel? I know that most Christians see Israel as a Nation of the Twelve Tribes; as a nation in the middle east, as do the Jews. But now we are spiritually...Israel.

Now we are of one Spirit, with all nations coming before the cross, being washed in the blood of Christ and recieving the covenants of promise after our father Abraham: That covenant of belief and faith.

 

[CharlesYTK]

God's plan to bring in Gentiles began with His promise to Abrahmam when He said that He would make Abraham the father of many nations or hamon goyim - multitudes of gentiles.(Gen.17:4)
.

All this is true but I think what you are sort of saying, is that God solved the Gentile problem by mixing Ephraim into them and giving all the tiny drop of Jewish blood that allows them to be included in the salvation mission of the Messiah. This is another sort of replacementism and really does diservice to the Gospel. (I hope that I am not misunderstanding what you have said here). Some teach that it was only lost Israel that Paul was ministering to that these were not true Pagan Gentiles. But that really is not the message of Paul. Pauls gospel was that the Gentiles Pagans were being called to aith in God and that they did not need a change in ethnicity or a Jew sitting somewhere in the family tree to become part of Israel. Gentiles become part of Israel the same way that they did before the Northern tribes were taken into captivity, through faith in God and obedience to his Commandments. What makes this possible for us is that the separation between Jew and Gentle, the emnity occassioned by a missuse of the torah which formed a wall of partition through doctrine, was torn down by the work of Yeshua. Ethnicity and Genetics have no advantage over the saving power of God through Messiah. You see the plan of God as stated began with Abraham, and is fulfilled in Messiah who opens the doors so that those Pagan Gentiles can be brought close to God. In this God is displaying his glory, and making an open show of the powers in heavenly places by taking Hasatans people away from him. God is taking over the world.

 

[CharlesYTK]

Wouldn't you say that now all who come to the Father (unto God in one body) is Israel? I know that most Christians see Israel as a Nation of the Twelve Tribes; as a nation in the middle east, as do the Jews. But now we are spiritually...Israel.

Now we are of one Spirit, with all nations coming before the cross, being washed in the blood of Christ and recieving the covenants of promise after our father Abraham: That covenant of belief and faith.

Yes all who come in faith are Israel. Because Israel is the name God gives the community of the faithful. It was never about ethnicity. There has always been an open door for Gentiles to adjoin themselves to God and become part of Israel as you can see in the verses I have quoted in the OP. We must be careful not to diminish the Gospel by taking the name spirital Israel to mean the Church. Because it is that much bigger tree that is made up of both Jews AND Gentiles all living in faithfulness, (active faith that produces good works) grafted in to the rich root to produce fruit.

I believe this is what you were saying. I have added these comments because the term "Spiritual Israel" is a common term used by the chruch to show that it replaces historical Israel. AS it says in your signature, the true followers are those who "Keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus the Christ."

 

[CharlesYTK]

As a note to all who take part in this thread, I will be away from my computer most of the day tomorrow. Please do not think I am just ignoring your responses. I will get caught up as soon as I am able.
Shalom,

Charles

 

[JohnJones]

Note verse 4. "For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;" -- Here we see that the Covenant being referred to is NOT the Old Covenant since the Old Covenant forbade eunuchs from entering the congregation. (Deu 23:1) If eunuchs are now entering the Covenant then we find "verily a disannulling" of the Old Law. Otherwise eunuchs could not come.

 

[JohnJones]

We must be careful not to diminish the Gospel by taking the name spirital Israel to mean the Church. Because it is that much bigger tree that is made up of both Jews AND Gentiles all living in faithfulness, (active faith that produces good works) grafted in to the rich root to produce fruit.

If you mean past, present and future all three, then ok -- The faithful Jews who lived under the Old Testament were the spiritual Israel of the time, but today, the church alone is spiritual Israel and in the future, even to the end of time, this will remain so that the church alone is spiritual Israel. Today and in the future till the end, all Jews and Gentiles who live in faithfulness are in the church. No Jew who disbelieves in Jesus can be considered faithful or saved by any stretch of the imagination: "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18) Jesus made it quite plain there - if you don't believe that he is the only-begotten Son of God you can't be saved no matter what.

 

[CharlesYTK]

If you mean past, present and future all three, then ok -- The faithful Jews who lived under the Old Testament were the spiritual Israel of the time, but today, the church alone is spiritual Israel and in the future, even to the end of time, this will remain so that the church alone is spiritual Israel. Today and in the future till the end, all Jews and Gentiles who live in faithfulness are in the church. No Jew who disbelieves in Jesus can be considered faithful or saved by any stretch of the imagination: "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18) Jesus made it quite plain there - if you don't believe that he is the only-begotten Son of God you can't be saved no matter what.

I believe you are reading Christian theology into Paul. Paul was not christian, he was a practicing Jew. And he said that the Gentles were brought into Israel, not the other way around. The New covenant is not made with the church or with some etheral replacement of the church, it is made with Israel and Judah, the Northern and southern kingdoms.

Jer 31:
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The inclusion of Eunucks dones not abolish the the old covenant, it opens it further. The disadvantaged has always had a place in the comunity of faith even the strangers (Gentiles). Messiah Yeshua levels the distinctions of races and classes of people, so that all can be part of the poeple of Israel.

Without going into too much detail, you must realize that the prophets that were canonized in the Hebrew scripture were proven and accepted as true prophets and accepted that the Lord was speaking through them.

Today and in the future till the end, all Jews and Gentiles who live in faithfulness are in the church.

No, they are aithful Israel, and what they are faithful in is not only knowledge that Yeshua is Messiah but they are faithful and keep the commandments of God as well. See Rev 12:17 and 14:12, almong with an abundance of other scriptures. Even Messiah says "If you love me then keep my commandments."

 

[@@Paul@@]

Yes all who come in faith are Israel. Because Israel is the name God gives the community of the faithful. It was never about ethnicity. There has always been an open door for Gentiles to adjoin themselves to God and become part of Israel as you can see in the verses I have quoted in the OP. We must be careful not to diminish the Gospel by taking the name spirital Israel to mean the Church. Because it is that much bigger tree that is made up of both Jews AND Gentiles all living in faithfulness, (active faith that produces good works) grafted in to the rich root to produce fruit.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Sure, we can all say that being in Christ identifies us as God’s chosen people and allows ALL to be children of God as Israel was in times past… But that does not mean I am part of Israel.

Rom 9:3-5
(3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
(4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
(5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

There can be no confusion here: By saying “my kinsmen according to the flesh” Paul is talking about a physical seed. To WHOM (Israelites) pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises, AND who “concerning the FLESH” Christ came.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?​

God **STILL** has a plan for his “physical” seed JUST as He has a plan for His “spiritual” seed… But it’s when the literal seed of Jacob is received back (their fullness, see verse 12) that is like “life from the dead”.

 

[JohnJones]

I believe you are reading Christian theology into Paul. Paul was not christian, he was a practicing Jew.

That would be an amazing feat indeed, considering that I was quoting Jesus!

"he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18) Jesus made it quite plain there - if you don't believe that he is the only-begotten Son of God you can't be saved no matter what.

Regardless of what weak arguments you may choose to present and your opinion of what Paul was or was not, you can't get around what Jesus said here. You either believe that Jesus is the Son of God or you go to hell, period. To be faithful today requires this belief - anyone who lacks it is unfaithful.

 

[Remnant]

I think everyone is missing a key point here. Paul says:

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

That Israel as a nation, people, and country, was finished (that earthly Jerusalem was totally destroyed) and he knew this, and grieved. Sure he said that the Hebrews were still grafted into the promise, but now that promise was to all one seed. Now we have an Israel that all nations will be part of.

Gal 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That those things that were of the flesh (the law) were now fulfilled and better things were replaced with that promise made 430 years before the law was given.

Gal 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

In Revelation, we see New Jerusalem with 12 foundations and 12 gates. We all know what those are….but what does it signify?
That everything from Abraham to Christ is tied spiritually together. We all are one in Christ Jesus from the beginning to the end….the Alpha and the Omega.

My friends, I need to leave for a couple of days but will return.

 

[Rafael]

All this is true but I think what you are sort of saying, is that God solved the Gentile problem by mixing Ephraim into them and giving all the tiny drop of Jewish blood that allows them to be included in the salvation mission of the Messiah. This is another sort of replacementism and really does diservice to the Gospel. (I hope that I am not misunderstanding what you have said here). Some teach that it was only lost Israel that Paul was ministering to that these were not true Pagan Gentiles. But that really is not the message of Paul. Pauls gospel was that the Gentiles Pagans were being called to aith in God and that they did not need a change in ethnicity or a Jew sitting somewhere in the family tree to become part of Israel. Gentiles become part of Israel the same way that they did before the Northern tribes were taken into captivity, through faith in God and obedience to his Commandments. What makes this possible for us is that the separation between Jew and Gentle, the emnity occassioned by a missuse of the torah which formed a wall of partition through doctrine, was torn down by the work of Yeshua. Ethnicity and Genetics have no advantage over the saving power of God through Messiah. You see the plan of God as stated began with Abraham, and is fulfilled in Messiah who opens the doors so that those Pagan Gentiles can be brought close to God. In this God is displaying his glory, and making an open show of the powers in heavenly places by taking Hasatans people away from him. God is taking over the world.

Well, there is not exclusivity in what I presented. Instead, it is exactly the opposite of exclusive but is enclusive towards all nations and peoples which was the point. Usually, the only ones excluded are the natural branches which is exactly what Paul warns against. God has not changed His mind about His covenant to His people, although their sins got them much trouble and persecution. He is ever faithful to His covenant - to the two houses of Israel and all those that come into His plan of salvation through the Messiah - Yeshua. The Church has an awful tendancy to replace All Israel with itself, while the Church would best represent the full ecclesia of believers who have come in just as Ezeliel 37:16, and 17 indicates - both houses of Israel and their companions.
To me, Ephraim (house of Israel) would best represent the Church here in America and the rest of the world, while Judah would represent the house of Judah and the Jews who become Messianic and accept Yeshua as Messiah. The "firstborn" reference of Ephraim and "Sons of the Lving God" in Hosea 1:9,10 are pretty strong indicators of a born again Church of the "firstborn" if you go back and read the scripture in Hebrews 12:23 and Jeremiah 31:9. Ephraim was to be a mighty prevailing prince while Judah was to hold the sceptre as King. Well, Jesus did come from the tribe of Judah, and Ephraim has dwelt in a "pleasant place" all these years and taken his children to the murderer right here in America. The United States was part of God's plan for Ephraim to flourish. The name Ephraim means "to flourish in captivity". As the Jews struggled and stumbled over Messiah, Ephraim has stumbled over its own heritage, and has forgotten who it is, just as the scriptures had said, but Jesus said they would hear His voice when He came back for the lost sheep of the house of Israel whose head was Ephraim.
Although God has made it plain that a true Jew or any type of believer is one of the heart and not the flesh. However, there still is the promise of God to Abraham and his seed that will never be broken by God, and He has fulfilled His promises to both houses when Jacob laid his hands on his sons and grandchildren to bless them. Today, the United States protects its brother Judah without even knowing why. A few in the Church know why ot is important to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but not that many.
Romans 11 speaks of the day when ALL Israel will be saved, which is both houses of Israel, the natural branches, and the grafted in branches who are the wild branches or companions of the two houses as per Ez.37:16,17. All together, they would be the full ecclesia or Church of believers.

Romans 2:28 For you are not real Jews just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish initiation ceremony of circumcision.29 No, a real Jew is anyone whose heart is right with God. For God is not actually looking for for those who cut their bodies in actual body circumcision, but He is looking for those with changed hearts and minds. Whoever has that kind of change in his life will get praise from God, even if not from you.

Hosea 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up; Now they are among the Gentiles Like a vessel in which is no pleasure.

Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.

Hosea 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.

Jer 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

 

[Rafael]

I think everyone is missing a key point here. Paul says:

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

That Israel as a nation, people, and country, was finished (that earthly Jerusalem was totally destroyed) and he knew this, and grieved. Sure he said that the Hebrews were still grafted into the promise, but now that promise was to all one seed. Now we have an Israel that all nations will be part of.

Gal 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That those things that were of the flesh (the law) were now fulfilled and better things were replaced with that promise made 430 years before the law was given.

Gal 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

In Revelation, we see New Jerusalem with 12 foundations and 12 gates. We all know what those are….but what does it signify?
That everything from Abraham to Christ is tied spiritually together. We all are one in Christ Jesus from the beginning to the end….the Alpha and the Omega.

My friends, I need to leave for a couple of days but will return.

This doesn't mean that God does not see His people. The point the scripture is trying to make is one against those who claimed that the blood or birthright was enough to save them. That is why Paul said that there is neither Greek now Jew in God's eyes when it comes to disobedience or obedience. If we obey God and follow Him, then wouldn't that be the deciding factor? I think that is what that verse is about, not that God doesn't know who the seed of Abraham are. Otherwise we can discount many many scriptures where God makes sure to name "house of Israel" or "house of Judah". Don't you think it is significant that the Holy Spirit would make this distinction in scripture? I do, and I think much confusion arises because people mistake Israel for the house of Israel which the first is the whole and the second only half or part of that whole.

 

[CharlesYTK]

That would be an amazing feat indeed, considering that I was quoting Jesus!

I wasn't refering to you quote from Jesus. I was speaking to you ideas of who or what the church is which is found in the teachings of Paul.

As for how a Jew who is faithful is to be Judged by God, that is best left to God. We should consider that Yeshua came to bring us to the father... and a Jew who is faithful to God through the covenants of God and who is submitted to God and loves God, he is where Yeshua wants us all to be. When the the rich young ruler came to Yeshua and asked about eternal life, Yeshua quoted the short version of the commandments to him. When the man attested to his obedience to these , Yeshua did not say he was condemned, but rather that he was doing the right thing. His only fault was that his wealth was an interferance between him and his full relationship with God. So he is told to sell everything and give it to the poor.

So while these words of Yeshua are a stern warning to all of us, I do not think we have the context of this correct. First we need to understand the Gospel according to Yeshua.

I will post something separately on this in case it develops different questions and comments.

 

[JohnJones]

As for how a Jew who is faithful is to be Judged by God, that is best left to God.

Indeed. Nevertheless, Jesus has already revealed the criterion that he will use in judgement (it is Jesus who will judge, John 5:22, Acts 17:31) and he said that those who do not believe he is the Son of God are condemned already. If you reject his saying here, you really shouldn't even be on this section of Christian forums, since it is for Christians, not unbelievers.

 

[CharlesYTK]

What is the Gospel of Yeshua?

MT 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent (return to Torah, quit breaking Torah, for the breaking of Torah is what sin is) This is the same message as every other prophet when Israel fell into apostasy that they were to return to Gods Torah (teachings, instruction) and live righteously before Him.


for the kingdom ((the active ruling of the king through his laws (will, laws, Torah) and exercised by his people through obedience.))

of heaven (God's Kingdom, Heaven = God in this reference)

is at hand. (at hand or near, in Hebrew means before you, right here right now. To draw near to God is to come before His presence.)

The Gospel of Yeshua:

Quit sinning and breaking Torah, turn and become obedient to Torah for this is the will of the King, that you obey the king for his kingdom is right now, before you.

How do we keep Toah?

By not hiding your light under a bushel but by letting your light shine. What is this light.

Matt 5: [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

light = good works= mitzvahs.(commandments)

As you live a life obedient to the Torah as explained by Yeshua, your good works of obedience will become a light to all nations and draw even the Goyim (Gentiles) to see God in you and to Glorify God.

Zec 8:[23] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

IS 56: [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

In Judaism faith is not a belief, it is active and must be read as faithfulness in action. As James said, "I will show you my faith by my works." (good deeds) In christianity the thought is, "we are not judged for what we do, but for what we really believe in our hearts." This is contrary to the teachings of Yeshua and the Disciples. It is not easy believism, but Be-ism, how you live, that matters. What you do is the outgrowth of what is in your heart. So one who keeps the commandments correctly does so out of an obedient heart, and it is evidenced through righteous actions of obedeince. This is why Yeshua frames the sermon on the mount with the clarification,"Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfil" (Fulfil in the Greek this means to fully establish, or supply liberally. It does not mean to terminate) And we see this as he moves the law from the outward obedience to heart obedeince. (You have heard them of old say... but I say unto you....) So he says, "If any man breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of God."

Yeshua commissions his disciples to go and preach this Gospel to the ends of the earth, to every nation (Gentile) and to teach them to do the things that he had taught the disciples to do. And he taught the disciples to correctly apply Torah to their lives. So Gentiles are also to have correct obedience to Torah as explained by Yeshua.

You can not separate obedience to God from Love for God. The way a person acknowledges that Gos IS god is through obedience and allowing Gods rule in their life. Therefore Yeshua says "If you love me, then keep my commandments." And John says "If you say you love him and keep not his commandments then you are a liar and there is no truth in you."

One who has trusted in faith, will have this obedience through love. It is in this frame that we should try to see his stern warning, in John 3:18. So when we consider these things in this light, as Yeshua spoke them, who is in more jeopardy, the Jew who is obedient to God and loves God and loves his neighbor and asks for Gods mercy, but was raised in a culture where the name Jesus is associated with death camps, inquisitions and murder... Or the Christian who believes Jesus is messiah, says he loves God and neighbor but lives with total disregard to the commandments?

My point is that we should not be so quick to sit in the seat of judgement. We should tremble in fear, for the day that we stand before it.

 

[CharlesYTK]

Well, there is not exclusivity in what I presented. Instead, it is exactly the opposite of exclusive but is enclusive towards all nations and peoples which was the point. Usually, the only ones excluded are the natural branches which is exactly what Paul warns against. God has not changed His mind about His covenant to His people, although their sins got them much trouble and persecution. He is ever faithful to His covenant - to the two houses of Israel and all those that come into His plan of salvation through the Messiah - Yeshua. The Church has an awful tendancy to replace All Israel with itself, while the Church would best represent the full ecclesia of believers who have come in just as Ezeliel 37:16, and 17 indicates - both houses of Israel and their companions.
To me, Ephraim (house of Israel) would best represent the Church here in America and the rest of the world, while Judah would represent the house of Judah and the Jews who become Messianic and accept Yeshua as Messiah. The "firstborn" reference of Ephraim and "Sons of the Lving God" in Hosea 1:9,10 are pretty strong indicators of a born again Church of the "firstborn" if you go back and read the scripture in Hebrews 12:23 and Jeremiah 31:9. Ephraim was to be a mighty prevailing prince while Judah was to hold the sceptre as King. Well, Jesus did come from the tribe of Judah, and Ephraim has dwelt in a "pleasant place" all these years and taken his children to the murderer right here in America. The United States was part of God's plan for Ephraim to flourish. The name Ephraim means "to flourish in captivity". As the Jews struggled and stumbled over Messiah, Ephraim has stumbled over its own heritage, and has forgotten who it is, just as the scriptures had said, but Jesus said they would hear His voice when He came back for the lost sheep of the house of Israel whose head was Ephraim.
Although God has made it plain that a true Jew or any type of believer is one of the heart and not the flesh. However, there still is the promise of God to Abraham and his seed that will never be broken by God, and He has fulfilled His promises to both houses when Jacob laid his hands on his sons and grandchildren to bless them. Today, the United States protects its brother Judah without even knowing why. A few in the Church know why ot is important to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but not that many.
Romans 11 speaks of the day when ALL Israel will be saved, which is both houses of Israel, the natural branches, and the grafted in branches who are the wild branches or companions of the two houses as per Ez.37:16,17. All together, they would be the full ecclesia or Church of believers.

Romans 2:28 For you are not real Jews just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish initiation ceremony of circumcision.29 No, a real Jew is anyone whose heart is right with God. For God is not actually looking for for those who cut their bodies in actual body circumcision, but He is looking for those with changed hearts and minds. Whoever has that kind of change in his life will get praise from God, even if not from you.

Hosea 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up; Now they are among the Gentiles Like a vessel in which is no pleasure.

Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.

Hosea 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.

Jer 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

I have read Batya Wootens books and materials, and I think there is room for this. Certainly in this world there is the possibility that some Gentiles are Ephamites. However I say again, that we must be careful to understand that ethnicity whether full Jewish or a single drop from some distant relative, it bears no weight. What matters is a changed heart. We are adopted sons, Like Epraim and Menassah. They were born to a Gentile Pagan mother but Jacob takes them upon his knee and adopts them, making them full heirs. Likewise we are adopted, into faith through Messiah Yeshua, so our petigree does not matter. What matters is our faithfulness through obedience. The true believers "obey the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus the Christ." Rev 12:17 We trust (have faith) that what Yeshua did for us (Gentiles included) is suffecient for all things.

 

[CharlesYTK]

Indeed. Nevertheless, Jesus has already revealed the criterion that he will use in judgement (it is Jesus who will judge, John 5:22, Acts 17:31) and he said that those who do not believe he is the Son of God are condemned already. If you reject his saying here, you really shouldn't even be on this section of Christian forums, since it is for Christians, not unbelievers.

If this is your desire, and the Moderator agrees I will leave. But I hope you are not telling me to leave so that you do not have to consider the hard questions.

None the less, I believe that Yeshua is Messiah and I think that if one understands Torah correctly that they will see this as well. But I also believe that if someone believes Yeshua is Messiah, they will also desire to be obedeint to Him (Yeshua) and what he tells us to do is to obey the commandments. Because HE, Yesha, is the one who gave them to us in the first place.

Believing that Yeshua is Messiah is not enough. The demons know that Yeshua is the Messiah. There is something more; a Changed life through rebirth in the spirit, that bears fruit for God.

 

[CharlesYTK]

Indeed. Nevertheless, Jesus has already revealed the criterion that he will use in judgement (it is Jesus who will judge, John 5:22, Acts 17:31) and he said that those who do not believe he is the Son of God are condemned already.

I am not trying to debate this with you. I would like to point out this teaching by Yeshua concening the judgment. Here is looks like it is what we do and not just what we believe.

MT 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.