How do you interpret the 400 years for the revealing of the Messiah in 2 Esdras?

[rakovsky]

2 Esdras (known as 4 Esdras in the Vulgate) is part of the King James Bible's "Apocrypha" section. Scholars generally agree that an early Jewish Christian wrote it, or major sections of it, and that its original language was Hebrew. You can read it here: Bible Gateway passage: 2 Esdras 7 - New Revised Standard Version
I liked reading this fascinating text, and based on its authorship, I would like to please ask you in the Messianic section about one of the most confusing parts of this document for me: Do the 400 years after the Messiah has been revealed refer to (A) 400 years in the period from the 5th century BC up to Christ's crucifixion, (B) a metaphor for Christ's life or ministry, or (C) a futuristic eschatological End Times period following the End Times tribulation comparable to the 1000 years of Christ's reign after His return in the Book of Revelation?

The passage is in 4 Esdras 7, below. An angel gives Ezra the Lord's prediction about signs and about a city full of all good things that has a narrow entrance. Next, the angel says:

26. “For indeed the time will come, when the signs that I have foretold to you will come to pass, that the city that now is not seen shall appear, and the land that now is hidden shall be disclosed.
27. Everyone who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders.
28. For my son the Messiah [D] shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years.
29. After those years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath.[E]
30. Then the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings, so that no one shall be left.
31. After seven days the world that is not yet awake shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish.
32. The earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who rest there in silence; and the chambers shall give up the souls that have been committed to them.
33. The Most High shall be revealed on the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn.
34. Only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong.

Footnotes
[D] Syriac Arabic 1: Ethiopian my Messiah; Arabic 2 the Messiah; Armenian the Messiah of God; Latin: my son Jesus
[E] Armenian version: "all who have continued in faith and in patience"

Let me briefly explain each of the three interpretations that I came across.

(Option A: A 400 year period in c. 440 BC - 333 AD.)
According to this theory, Ezra's writings or the prophecies in the TaNaKh revealed the Messiah in about the 5th century BC, and righteous Israelites rejoiced over the next 400 years. In the Latin manuscript of 4 Esdras 7:27, the Messiah is called "Jesus." ("For My Son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him"). While the other remaining manuscripts (Syriac, Ethiopian, Armenian) don't have the name "Jesus" here, it's still a possibility. Thus, the document could be presenting itself as "revealing" the Messiah. In history, the real Ezra lived in about 480-440 BC. The document says that the Messiah would die after the 400 years, but it doesn't say how long afterwards. The Crucifixion was in about 33 AD, which is about 472 years after Ezra's time.

Stephen W. Kraner in his essay "Allusions to 2Esdras in the New Testament" showed that 4 Esdras 8:62- 9:6 apparently lines up with major elements of Matthew 24. If the author of the book's middle portion used Matthew 24, he would have been a Christian who intended his reference to the Messiah's death in verse 29 to agree with the New Testament, not to contradict it. Another reason for Option A could be that there are about 400 years in the Intertestamental period between the events of the TaNaKh and those of the Gospels. Further, Daniel 9 gives a similar period of over four centuries that leads to the cutting off of an Anointed One / Messiah.

On the other hand, one of my biggest problems with Option A is that v. 28 says that "my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him", and it's hard to see how His companions were revealed in the 5th century BC., since the Jews already knew about figures in heaven like Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Ezra and the angels.

What do you think of Option A? I want to ask you more about Options B and C in later posts, but you can respond about them here too.

 

[rakovsky]

(Option B: A metaphor for Christ's ministry)
Option B is that the "400 years" are a symbolic expression for a period of Christ's ministry. In this theory, the Messiah's companions who are revealed with him in verse 28 could be righteous people like Moses and Elijah who were revealed at the Transfiguration. The companions of the Messiah mentioned here could be the righteous who were taken up without dying and will be seen again at the End according to Chapters 6:26 and 14:9.

If one sees the 400 years as symbolic, then either Christ's 30 years of speaking from 3 to 33 years of age or His 3 year ministry, could be correlated symbolically with the 400 years of Egyptian slavery. In Genesis 15:13, God predicted 400 years of servitude in Egypt for Abraham's descendants, and then in Psalm 90:15, Moses prayed, "Make us glad as many days as you have afflicted us, and as many years as we have seen evil." So the 400 years could refer to making the righteous glad in contrast to their 400 years of suffering. O.V. Binyukov, in his essay "What are the 400 years in 3 Esdras 7:26-34?", tries to give this explanation of the two periods' relationship:

In the course of four hundred years of Egyptian slavery, the Jews suffered, and in the course of the three year earthly ministry of Christ, people who accepted the Gospel followed Christ and remaining with Him, enjoyed the presence of God, and knew the true path of perfection (the truth) (John 14:6). The Truth made people free from the slavery of sin in which they were located (John 8:32). 400 years of pleasure (ie three years of the presence of Christ on earth in the Body of a man) - is in contrast to the 400 year suffering in slavery.

It's noteworthy that the Syriac translation of 2 Esdras says ‘30’ instead of ‘400.’ Perhaps the Syriac translator of the document interpreted the 400 years in terms of 30 years of Christ's life, like 30 years of speaking leading from His infancy up to His crucifixion, and then changed the number 400 to 30. Certainly if the passage said "30 years" it would be more clearly compatible with Christ's life or ministry than "400 years".

How would you address Option B?

 

[rakovsky]

One of the problems with Option B is that verse 29 says that after 400 years all who have breath would die. One suggestion could be that this refers to those who have the Holy Spirit, as John 3 says, "the spirit breathes where it wants", or it could refer to those on whom Christ "breathed" to give them the Spirit in John 20:22. Unfortunately, it still feels like a stretch to say that verse 29 is talking just about the death of the apostles. And it also feels like a stretch to say (like Binyukov does) that it is talking about just some kind of metaphorical or spiritual death in the sense of the apostles being in despair for a few days until Christ's resurrection. I suppose that you could interpret the 7 days of silence over the world to represent the three days of Christ's suffering and death leading up to "Easter Sunday", which some call the "Eighth Day". This is because they see Christ's Resurrection as part of a new state of "Creation" for the world, which was made in 7 days. But nonetheless, the passage in 2 Esdras sounds to me like it is literally talking about the death of everyone alive, followed by 7 days of physical silence over the earth and then followed by the general resurrection. And this appears to conflict with Christianity's idea that some of the righteous who survive into the End Times will be transformed and avoid death. You could get around this conflict by saying that the righteous would avoid death because they will be transformed into a new state that doesn't use human breath, but that feels like a bit of a leap.

Do you think that this problem disproves Option B?

I laid out Option C in my first post here:
Are the 400 years in 4 Esdras 7 eschatological or referring to Christ's ministry, etc.?
But I feel like none of the three Options easily and clearly solves the question. The problem with Option C is that if the 400 years are talking about an eschatological blessed state comparable to the millenium of Christ's rule in Revelation 20, then it is hard to see in what sense Christ would "die" after the 400 years (as verse 29 would imply under Option C). You could theorize that Chapter 7 is written by a non-Christian who didn't believe that the Messiah would be killed in the First Century before having this blessed long reign, but the author seems to have been a Christian judging by the allusions to Matthew's gospel at the end of 4 Esdras 8 and the beginning of 4 Esdras 9.

I don't mean this as a trick question. It's simply hard for me to make fully consistent sense of the 400 years as the passage is currently written.

 

[Dave-W]

That is neither Tenach or Apostolic Scripture.

 

[pinacled]

2 Esdras (known as 4 Esdras in the Vulgate) is part of the King James Bible's "Apocrypha" section. Scholars generally agree that an early Jewish Christian wrote it, or major sections of it, and that its original language was Hebrew. You can read it here: Bible Gateway passage: 2 Esdras 7 - New Revised Standard Version
I liked reading this fascinating text, and based on its authorship, I would like to please ask you in the Messianic section about one of the most confusing parts of this document for me: Do the 400 years after the Messiah has been revealed refer to (A) 400 years in the period from the 5th century BC up to Christ's crucifixion, (B) a metaphor for Christ's life or ministry, or (C) a futuristic eschatological End Times period following the End Times tribulation comparable to the 1000 years of Christ's reign after His return in the Book of Revelation?

The passage is in 4 Esdras 7, below. An angel gives Ezra the Lord's prediction about signs and about a city full of all good things that has a narrow entrance. Next, the angel says:

Let me briefly explain each of the three interpretations that I came across.

(Option A: A 400 year period in c. 440 BC - 333 AD.)
According to this theory, Ezra's writings or the prophecies in the TaNaKh revealed the Messiah in about the 5th century BC, and righteous Israelites rejoiced over the next 400 years. In the Latin manuscript of 4 Esdras 7:27, the Messiah is called "Jesus." ("For My Son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him"). While the other remaining manuscripts (Syriac, Ethiopian, Armenian) don't have the name "Jesus" here, it's still a possibility. Thus, the document could be presenting itself as "revealing" the Messiah. In history, the real Ezra lived in about 480-440 BC. The document says that the Messiah would die after the 400 years, but it doesn't say how long afterwards. The Crucifixion was in about 33 AD, which is about 472 years after Ezra's time.

Stephen W. Kraner in his essay "Allusions to 2Esdras in the New Testament" showed that 4 Esdras 8:62- 9:6 apparently lines up with major elements of Matthew 24. If the author of the book's middle portion used Matthew 24, he would have been a Christian who intended his reference to the Messiah's death in verse 29 to agree with the New Testament, not to contradict it. Another reason for Option A could be that there are about 400 years in the Intertestamental period between the events of the TaNaKh and those of the Gospels. Further, Daniel 9 gives a similar period of over four centuries that leads to the cutting off of an Anointed One / Messiah.

On the other hand, one of my biggest problems with Option A is that v. 28 says that "my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him", and it's hard to see how His companions were revealed in the 5th century BC., since the Jews already knew about figures in heaven like Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Ezra and the angels.

What do you think of Option A? I want to ask you more about Options B and C in later posts, but you can respond about them here too.

The one cut off spoken of to danyl is the Antichrist or false prophet. The evil one removed from the Holy Ones presence and escorted to the outer darkness where not even stars give light.

Much speech leads to....

 

[AbbaLove]

The simple reality is that the modern Eastern Orthodox Church does not possess a formal, universally-approved Biblical canon. Rather, there is some confusion among Eastern Orthodox churches as to which "books" properly constitute their "canon" of the Bible. To understand this, one has to understand what "canon" originally referred to and how the canon of today's Hebrew/NT(Protestant) Bible actually came into being in the first place via the RCC -- before the Protestant Reformation.

Timeline of the NT Biblical Canon Prior To The 16th Century Reformation​

51-125 AD
The New Testament books are written.

140 AD (beginnings of RT and anti-Jewish persecution by Rome)
Marcion, a businessman in Rome, taught that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the Old Testament, and Abba, the kind father of the New Testament. Marcion eliminated the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he was anti-Semitic, kept from the New Testament only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke's gospel (he deleted references to Jesus's Jewishness). Marcion's "New Testament", the first to be compiled, forced the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four Gospels and Letters of Paul.

200 AD
The periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter. Each "city-church" (region) has it's own Canon, which is a list of books approved for reading at Mass (Liturgy)

367 AD
The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter #39 (Arianism starts introducing spurious books)

382 AD
Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the New Testament books in their present number and order.

393 AD
Council of Hippo, which began "arguing it out." Canon proposed by Bishop Athanasius.

397 AD
The Council of Carthage, which refined the canon for the Western Church, sending it back to Pope Innocent for ratification. In the East, the canonical process was hampered by a number of schisms (esp. within the Church of Antioch).

787 AD
The Ecumenical Council of Nicaea II, which adopted the canon of Carthage. At this point, both the Latin West and the Greek / Byzantine East had the same canon. However, ... The non-Greek, Monophysite and Nestorian Churches of the East (the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Syrians, the Armenians, the Syro-Malankars, the Chaldeans, and the Malabars) were still left out. But these Churches came together in agreement, in 1442A.D., in Florence.

1442 AD
At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the 27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. So, by 1439, all orthodox branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. This is 100 years before the Reformation.

1536 AD
In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

1546 AD
At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373, 787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point, closing it for good.​

____________________________
​

The Eastern Orthodox Church is most open to apocryphal books and so it is no wonder that the apocryphal book of 2 Esdras would capture the interest of rakovsky. However, as rakovsky knows the defintion of "apocryphal" is -- writings of dubious authenticity. The accepted books (canon) of the Hebrew and Protestant Bible are by and large NOT considered apocryphal.

The Eastern Orthodox Church apparently has no historical record of ever arriving at a so-called "canon" (consensus) -- being more open to reading -- considering apocryphal books (e.g. 2 Esdras) that (IMO) add little, if anything, to the accepted "canon" of the Hebrew and NT (Protestant) Bible.

 

[bibleexpert12345]

2 Esdras claims to be written about 557 BC

Chapter 3:1
In the thirtieth year after the ruin of the city I was in Babylon, and lay troubled upon my bed, and my thoughts came up over my heart:
Assuming one rendering of the 400 year prophecy is something like " the messiah will come in 400 years" as that is what it has on Stephen Pidgeon's website then it would have to be written 400 BC to make any sense which it was not. Also Ezra says he was told to re write all the OT books but only give some to the common people, and withhold the rest for the wise. 2 options- 2 Esdras is genuine pseudepigrapha written after 70 AD by the synagogue of satan in response to Jesus, and 70 AD which is why that claim about the books sounds the same as the pirke avot mishneh claim about the oral torah Moses got on mt Sinai, and was told not to write it down just pass it on orally via the elders up until it was written down in the talmud or the 2 Esdras is real even though the internal dates don't make sense when combined with the 400 year prophecy, and the books given to the common people were what became the modern protestant canon/masoretic canon, and the other books are things like 1 Enoch, Jubilees, testament of the 12, life of Adam, and Eve etc.

 

[bibleexpert12345]

Also it has the eagle kingdom prophecy, and says that is the 4th beast of Daniel. The 4th beast of Daniel overlaps with Revelation 13, and is still future. It is 1948 country Israel, and the mark of the beast is the hexagram. I don't think his eagle prophecy matches. Instead of heads or horns it has feathers. I think it is all nonsense if someone wants to prove it is real they need to make sense of the 400 year prophecy in context of the 500s BC when it claims to be written.

 

[daq]

2 Esdras (known as 4 Esdras in the Vulgate) is part of the King James Bible's "Apocrypha" section. Scholars generally agree that an early Jewish Christian wrote it, or major sections of it, and that its original language was Hebrew. You can read it here: Bible Gateway passage: 2 Esdras 7 - New Revised Standard Version
I liked reading this fascinating text, and based on its authorship, I would like to please ask you in the Messianic section about one of the most confusing parts of this document for me: Do the 400 years after the Messiah has been revealed refer to (A) 400 years in the period from the 5th century BC up to Christ's crucifixion, (B) a metaphor for Christ's life or ministry, or (C) a futuristic eschatological End Times period following the End Times tribulation comparable to the 1000 years of Christ's reign after His return in the Book of Revelation?

The passage is in 4 Esdras 7, below. An angel gives Ezra the Lord's prediction about signs and about a city full of all good things that has a narrow entrance. Next, the angel says:

Let me briefly explain each of the three interpretations that I came across.

(Option A: A 400 year period in c. 440 BC - 333 AD.)
According to this theory, Ezra's writings or the prophecies in the TaNaKh revealed the Messiah in about the 5th century BC, and righteous Israelites rejoiced over the next 400 years. In the Latin manuscript of 4 Esdras 7:27, the Messiah is called "Jesus." ("For My Son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him"). While the other remaining manuscripts (Syriac, Ethiopian, Armenian) don't have the name "Jesus" here, it's still a possibility. Thus, the document could be presenting itself as "revealing" the Messiah. In history, the real Ezra lived in about 480-440 BC. The document says that the Messiah would die after the 400 years, but it doesn't say how long afterwards. The Crucifixion was in about 33 AD, which is about 472 years after Ezra's time.

Stephen W. Kraner in his essay "Allusions to 2Esdras in the New Testament" showed that 4 Esdras 8:62- 9:6 apparently lines up with major elements of Matthew 24. If the author of the book's middle portion used Matthew 24, he would have been a Christian who intended his reference to the Messiah's death in verse 29 to agree with the New Testament, not to contradict it. Another reason for Option A could be that there are about 400 years in the Intertestamental period between the events of the TaNaKh and those of the Gospels. Further, Daniel 9 gives a similar period of over four centuries that leads to the cutting off of an Anointed One / Messiah.

On the other hand, one of my biggest problems with Option A is that v. 28 says that "my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him", and it's hard to see how His companions were revealed in the 5th century BC., since the Jews already knew about figures in heaven like Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Ezra and the angels.

What do you think of Option A? I want to ask you more about Options B and C in later posts, but you can respond about them here too.

The author of the text was a Kohen, (Priest), and fully understood both the civil and the sacred calendar days, and understood the meaning of the statement, That your days may be multiplied....as the days of the heavens upon the earth, (Deut 11:21). Moreover he is referring the observant reader to the following statement found in Yeshayah the Prophet:

Isaiah 65:20 KJV
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

This hundred years old is according to the multiplied days upon the earth, which in turn are derived from the sacred calendar day of seven yamim-hours in a yom day, which is so because Yom is Light: and this is not the light of the sun but the true Light which enlightens every man coming into the world, the Light of the Word of the Most High. Yom is rendered in many different ways in the scripture but unfortunately one of the most important meanings is neither understood by scholars nor rendered as such, which is the hour. There is no word for an hour in Biblical Hebrew, (the Aramaic portions use a word which does not mean the same in Hebrew). However, since Yom is Light, (Gen 1:5a, according to its name given by Elohim Himself in the very beginning), whenever it is used as an increment of time it may be any increment of biblically employed meanings for yom. Rhema spoken (and written) word is not the same as Logos. The Logos is the understanding of the Rhema: one may have the Rhema and yet still not understand lacking Logos. Howbeit the Logos reveals when and where words mean what they mean even though such words like yom are used very broadly. The key is in understanding that there is a foundational precept and in the case with yom it is that the first increment is an hour, not a full day, and all the other increments flow from that and essentially enlarge according to the pattern: the full week of seven days derives from the pattern of the seven yamim hours in the yom of creation, in the yom wherein Elohim made Earth and Heavens.

For example we have the most common usage, a day, which is not 24 hours but 12 hours, (and a night is 12 hours). But from there we also find a day for a year, and a year for a day, as when the spies searched out the land for forty days and brought back an evil report upon the land: the breach resulted in forty years in the wilderness, a year for a day. And when Ychezqel, (Ezekiel the Prophet), was commanded to lay on each side a certain number of days, one side for the house of Yisrael, 390 days, a day for a year, and on his other side 40 days for the house of Yhudah, a day for a year. Then again we have, in 2 Pet 3:8, one day is as a thousand years with the Master, and a thousand years are as one day. Then again we find in Psa 90, a Psalm of Mosheh, that a thousand years are as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night which we know is only a mere three hours.

The point herein above: if a yom may be a day, and a yom may be a year, and a yom may be a thousand years, and a yom may be as a watch in the night which is merely three hours, then surely a yom may be an hour. Thus we have in the opening creation account seven yamim-hours in a yom day: six hours of spoken word creation and the Shabbat hour of every day of the year for as long as the earth and the world endure. And this is the base increment, that is, the hour, and the opening creation account contains the sacred calendar day while BaMidbar-Numbers 7 contains the twelve hour civil calendar day: twelve yom-hours in the yom-day wherein the altar was anointed.

Please bear with me if you are still here at CF, (I see your OP post is old, but the thread was resurrected recently, (which is fine by me)). All of this background is absolutely necessary to at least arrive at a basic understanding of the conclusion I am driving toward. A look at the sacred and civil calendar days may go a long way in helping to visualize the seven hours of the sacred calendar day, since that is really what is most important to understand so that the portion within the civil calendar day is what is being counted: these are the little days or abbreviated days, (Zec 4:10 yom qetanot, Mar 13:20).

So then, counting only the sacred calendar day, which is a week of hours singled out within every twelve hour day, we find that for the abbreviated day the number is fourteen full years of 364 days with 104 full days added in the fourteenth year, which 104 days commence at the close of the 24th of the rishon hodesh, (by the Prophets, Daniel foremost), and those final 104 days run up to the 9th of the fifth month, the day when the temple was destroyed both times. The 24th of the first month is the beginning of the final vision of Daniel the Prophet, and is also the day Yakob wrestled with the Malak at Peniel, and is also the day Sha'ul was stopped in his tracks on the way to Damascus, not far from Damascus.

Counting only the sacred calendar day of seven yamim-hours in a yom day:

14 Years *364 = 5,096 Full Days
7*5,096 Full Days = 35,672 Abbreviated Days
7*104 Full Days = 728 Abbreviated Days
35,672 + 728 = 36,400 Abbreviated Days

36,400/364 = 100 Turnings (Years) in Abbreviated Days
These are the abbreviated days of the one whose days have been multiplied upon the earth.

So then, a na'ar, (child, lad, young one, or young man), as according to Yeshayah 65:20, is 100 years in multiplied days when he reaches the 14th year and 104th day of that year. What therefore would be four hundred years? That would be four cycles of fourteen years: 56 years in the surface level way of counting years.

There is a mountain of evidence behind what I have offered here: this is really more like a mere teaser, for although this post is not really that long, (a least imho), it is packed with as much as I could get into it and needs to be unpacked by those who may be interested.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4
1 Surely it is not profitable for me to boast: but I must come to visions and revelations of the Master.
2 I knew a certain one before fourteen years in Meshiah, whether in the body, I know not, or whether out of the body, I know not, Elohim knows that such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 Also I know such a one, whether in the body or out of the body, I know not: Elohim knows (4) that he was caught up into the Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to speak.

Paul's name means small or little, that is in the supernal sense, humbled. At the time of writing the above passage Paul was fourteen years in Meshiah, at that point in his walk: fourteen years before writing this text he was on his way to Damascus and received the vision. In the vision, Paul is in Paradise, (like the thief at Golgotha and what the Master says to him in Luke 23:43), and Sha'ul is also there, but Sha'ul is the one in the third heaven rather than Paradise, and he is blaspheming, (for he is the old man nature), and the new man Paul hears the old man Sha'ul speaking words that are not lawful for a man to speak.

After that first vision on the road to Damascus, when the fourteen years he mentions in the above text had been accomplished, he ascends up to Yerushalem, but as he says, according to revelation, (Gal 2:1-2).