How do you get saved?

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The law of Moses does not only apply to Jews.

The following text, by itself and with no need to appeal to other texts, makes it clear that Paul believes the Law of Moses is something that only applies to the Jew:

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also?

There is no room for misinterpretation - Paul is saying that if a person could be justified by the works of the Law of Moses, then only Jews would have the opportunity to be justified.

Inescapable conclusion: the Law of Moses only applies to Jews.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
However, you are subject to the law of God in some way, shape, or form.

I am NOT subject to the Law of Moses, however. Since I am not a Jew I don't need to:

1. Obey the kosher food laws;
2. Offer sacrifices in the temple;
3. Celebrate the festival of booths.

It is clear beyond reason that the Law of Moses - the 613 prescriptions - only ever applied to Jews. Want proof? Here is just one example where God tells us that the food laws are only for Jews:

You are therefore to keep all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them, so that the land to which I am bringing you to [m]live will not spew you out. 23 Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them. 24 Hence I have said to you, “You are to possess their land, and I Myself will give it to you to possess it, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the Lord your God, who has separated you from the peoples. 25 You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

This text is clear: God gives the kosher food laws - part of the Law of Moses - to set the Jew apart from the Gentile.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
You're going to have to be more specific.

See my recent post about this.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I've never heard of these names; what theological tradition do they hail from?

Not sure, but they are highly credentialed scholars. Again, I suspect you do not realize that no scholars (i am quite sure) agree with your position. I don’t mean to be rude, but do you know what the Law of Moses actually is?

JLB777 · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
In Matthew 5:17-20 (which I quote below), it is not the prophecies of the Old Testament alone that are fulfilled by Christ, but the law itself is magnified by Him (Isaiah 42:21).

Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

A few points here. In context, Jesus is clearly referring to the Old Testament law. He says clearly that every letter of the law is still valid for today (i.e. one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from it). If we break one of the least of the commandments in the Old Testament law, and teach men so, our reward in heaven will be lessened. And then, the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was that they were sticklers for the law; their outward righteousness was impeccable. Therefore we must have an inward righteousness that exceeds their outward righteousness, if we are even going to enter into heaven.

In the remainder of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus explains how the Old Testament law is not merely outward, but how in specific ways (He is not extensive), it applies to the heart and not just outward behaviour.

Now it is also clear from scripture (Romans 8:4-7, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16) that as believers in Christ, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4; Romans 5:5 w/ Romans 13:8-10) because in our minds we are subject to the law of God, being spiritually-minded (Romans 8:7); and that the law of God is written in our hearts and on our minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Jeremiah 31:33), as believers under the New Covenant.

Now love is definitely the fulfilling of the law; but think: what this means is that if I love my neighbor as myself, I am not going to (Romans 13:8-10) commit adultery with his wife, kill him, steal from him, lie about him, covet anything that belongs to him; and neither will I break any other commandment in the law that applies to my relationship to him (Romans 13:9).

It is clear from 1 John 5:3 and 2 John 1:6 that to love God is to keep His commandments. And God is not the God only of the New Testament.

Now in the New Testament we are not required to keep His commandments for salvation, such as the Old Testament food laws (1 Timothy 4:1-6); however because we are saved we ought to consider keeping all of the commandments out of love for God. If I don't, then God is able to make me stand (Romans 14:4), as there is forgiveness in Him. But sin is defined by the law of God (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), and therefore if I break any part of the law of God, I am sinning (James 2:10, Galatians 3:10). However, as a believer in Christ, I am not under the law (Romans 6:14), am dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and am delivered from the law (Romans 7:6); and therefore the law no longer points me out as a sinner when I violate the law of God (Romans 4:8, Romans 5:13, Romans 4:15 w/ 1 John 3:4; in conjunction w/ Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18-19). Nevertheless I am governed from the inside by the principles of the law (which amount to the love of God) (again, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7, Romans 5:5 w/ Romans 13:8-10); while I am not condemned from the outside by commandments written on stone (Romans 4:8, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19). Rather, the commandments are written on the fleshy tablet of my human heart (2 Corinthians 3:2-3). The love of God is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5) because of my faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14); and this love, worked out in my life not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18), is the fulfilling of the law: being a supernatural work that the Lord does in my heart. He also causes me to walk in His statutes and in His judgments because I am born again (Ezekiel 36:25-27). He works within me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

The law of faith -

Everyone receives faith when they hear the Gospel.

It's those who believe and obey the Gospel who are saved.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Faith comes to a person when they hear God speak to them, however that faith must be activated in order to produce the intended divine result, otherwise it remains incomplete.

James explains -

by works faith was made perfect

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.

Works = The effort obedience requires.

James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.

Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JLB

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
It is explained in Romans 3:25-26. The wrath of God was appeased (propitiation) through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. There are two irreconcilable attributes in the heart of God...justice and mercy. Justice requires that everyone get the due penalty for their sins, mercy desires that we get less than what we deserve, even total forgiveness. Justice is satisfied and mercy can still be given, in that Jesus died on the Cross in our place, taking the penalty for our sins, bringing forgiveness to all who will believe in Him, receive Him, and put their trust in Him, turning away from sin and receiving the new desire for righteousness, even to obey His teachings.

SIMPLE.

No, not simple. You appear to be unaware that people - likely far more learned in Biblical matters than you and me - have debated the meaning of the atonement. Example:

One of the perennial questions about the meaning of Christ’s atoning death is “was it an expiation or a propitiation?” In other words, was the atonement performed towards us, or towards God? Both “expiation” and “propitiation” are terms used of sacrifice, but expiation implies a sacrificial taking away of some sin or offence (i.e. “Christ died for our sins”), whereas propitiation implies assuaging the anger or injured honor, holiness, or some other attribute of God.

An expiation changes us, taking away our sin, whereas a propitiation changes God, satisfying whatever needed to be satisfied. These are not mutually exclusive, obviously, but different atonement theories will stress one or the other.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
In Matthew 5:17-20 (which I quote below), it is not the prophecies of the Old Testament alone that are fulfilled by Christ, but the law itself is magnified by Him (Isaiah 42:21).

Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

A few points here. In context, Jesus is clearly referring to the Old Testament law. He says clearly that every letter of the law is still valid for today (i.e. one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from it).

Again, not that simple. Paul, at various places in his writing, is pretty definitive - the Law of Moses has come to an end.

Now let's return to the Matthew 5 passage you cite. Certainly, a literal reading supports the position that the law is still in force; after all, "heaven and earth" are still here. But what if Jesus is using metaphor, drawing on a long Jewish and Biblical tradition of using "end of the world" imagery as metaphor to refer to a fundamental change in human affairs? If this is the case, then Jesus could really be saying "the law will be here until some dramatic turning point in history".

I suggest the cross and the resurrection together constitute such a turning point. And note: as He draws His last breath, Jesus declares, yes, "it is finished". And what does Jesus say in the Matthew 5 text? That the law will be here until "all is accomplished".

Coincidence? I doubt it.

In summary: a compelling argument can be made that, in Matthew 5, Jesus is drawing on clear Biblical tradition and using metaphorical language to indicate that the law will remain in force until a new covenant is initiated.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Again, not that simple. Paul, at various places in his writing, is pretty definitive - the Law of Moses has come to an end.

Now let's return to the Matthew 5 passage you cite. Certainly, a literal reading supports the position that the law is still in force; after all, "heaven and earth" are still here. But what if Jesus is using metaphor, drawing on a long Jewish and Biblical tradition of using "end of the world" imagery as metaphor to refer to a fundamental change in human affairs? If this is the case, then Jesus could really be saying "the law will be here until some dramatic turning point in history".

I suggest the cross and the resurrection together constitute such a turning point. And note: as He draws His last breath, Jesus declares, yes, "it is finished". And what does Jesus say in the Matthew 5 text? That the law will be here until "all is accomplished".

Coincidence? I doubt it.

In summary: a compelling argument can be made that, in Matthew 5, Jesus is drawing on clear Biblical tradition and using metaphorical language to indicate that the law will remain in force until a new covenant is initiated.

However, Jesus is not using metaphor, but is saying literally that Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law. There is no reason to believe that He is not speaking literally here. When He says, Till all is fulfilled; obviously, heaven and earth passing away is a part of what He means by all.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
No, not simple. You appear to be unaware that people - likely far more learned in Biblical matters than you and me - have debated the meaning of the atonement. Example:

One of the perennial questions about the meaning of Christ’s atoning death is “was it an expiation or a propitiation?” In other words, was the atonement performed towards us, or towards God? Both “expiation” and “propitiation” are terms used of sacrifice, but expiation implies a sacrificial taking away of some sin or offence (i.e. “Christ died for our sins”), whereas propitiation implies assuaging the anger or injured honor, holiness, or some other attribute of God.

An expiation changes us, taking away our sin, whereas a propitiation changes God, satisfying whatever needed to be satisfied. These are not mutually exclusive, obviously, but different atonement theories will stress one or the other.

It is both expiation (1 John 3:5) and propitiation (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10). I'm not sure why there would be any debate. The Bible teaches both.

God both covers our sins in justification (Romans 4:6-8) and then in sanctification He is able to wash them away (1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 John 1:7).)

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Not sure, but they are highly credentialed scholars. Again, I suspect you do not realize that no scholars (i am quite sure) agree with your position. I don’t mean to be rude, but do you know what the Law of Moses actually is?

That's basically an impossibility unless all biblical scholars are devoid of the Holy Spirit. Have you read every biblical scholar who has ever written a commentary? And, have you read every commentary ever written? Then you do not have any real basis to say that no biblical scholar has the same interpretation as I do. What if I told you that I am a biblical scholar? (I certainly read my own Bible extensively enough!)

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
I am NOT subject to the Law of Moses, however. Since I am not a Jew I don't need to:

1. Obey the kosher food laws;
2. Offer sacrifices in the temple;
3. Celebrate the festival of booths.

It is clear beyond reason that the Law of Moses - the 613 prescriptions - only ever applied to Jews. Want proof? Here is just one example where God tells us that the food laws are only for Jews:

You are therefore to keep all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them, so that the land to which I am bringing you to [m]live will not spew you out. 23 Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them. 24 Hence I have said to you, “You are to possess their land, and I Myself will give it to you to possess it, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the Lord your God, who has separated you from the peoples. 25 You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

This text is clear: God gives the kosher food laws - part of the Law of Moses - to set the Jew apart from the Gentile.

The law of Moses is not the law of God? Therefore, God did not give the law to Moses? I find that to be preposterous and unbiblical.

Again, for those who are under the law, the whole law applies (James 2:10, Galatians 3:10) and defines sin (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4). For those who are not under the law (in Christ), it is still written on our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 5:5 w/ Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7), while it no longer has the power to condemn us (or identify us as sinners) if we are in Christ (Romans 4:8, Romans 5:13, Romans 4:15 w/ 1 John 3:4, in conjunction w/ Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19).

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
The following text, by itself and with no need to appeal to other texts, makes it clear that Paul believes the Law of Moses is something that only applies to the Jew:

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also?

There is no room for misinterpretation - Paul is saying that if a person could be justified by the works of the Law of Moses, then only Jews would have the opportunity to be justified.

Inescapable conclusion: the Law of Moses only applies to Jews.

I'm sorry I just don't see what you are saying in that scripture (and I tried to see it pretty hard). I think maybe you are reading something into the text that isn't there.

Also, if the law of Moses applies only to Jews, then only Jews can be saved; since the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). There would be no schoolmaster for Gentiles; nothing to train them and show them that they are sinners in need of a Saviour (see Psalms 19:7, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24-25).

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

JLB777 said:
The law of faith -

Everyone receives faith when they hear the Gospel.

It's those who believe and obey the Gospel who are saved.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Faith comes to a person when they hear God speak to them, however that faith must be activated in order to produce the intended divine result, otherwise it remains incomplete.

James explains -

by works faith was made perfect

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.

Works = The effort obedience requires.

James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.

Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JLB

Amen.

James 1:21-22 says, Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Again, not that simple. Paul, at various places in his writing, is pretty definitive - the Law of Moses has come to an end.

The author of Hebrews is also inspired. And he wrote that the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:10 and Hebrews 10:16, quoted from Jeremiah 31:33: which indicates it is referring to the Old Testament law since there was no New Testament law when Jeremiah had his ministry).

Also, Paul himself wrote that if we are spiritually-minded, we have peace with God because we are subject in our minds to the law of God, and cannot be otherwise; if we are spiritually-minded (Romans 8:7, if you look at it inversely). He wrote that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. And he wrote that for the unbeliever, the law defines sin (Romans 3:20; also John's testimony in 1 John 3:4) and is a schoolmaster to lead him to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25; see also Psalms 19:7).

The only way that the law has come to an end is in that, because we are forgiven through the blood of Christ of past, present, and future sins, the law no longer has the power to condemn us (because we are in Christ).

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
However, Jesus is not using metaphor, but is saying literally that Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law. There is no reason to believe that He is not speaking literally here. When He says, Till all is fulfilled; obviously, heaven and earth passing away is a part of what He means by all.

You are "begging the question" - simply assuming that Jesus intended to be taken literally. In proper discussion, you can't do that; you need to actually make a case to support your view. For my part, I pointed out that there is a Biblical tradition of using metaphorical "end of the world" language to refer to events that have nothing to do with the literal end of the world. You are free to ask me to support that part of my argument.

But you cannot simply declare, without supporting argument, that Jesus is speaking literally. At least not if you intend to debate the matter responsibly.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
It is both expiation (1 John 3:5) and propitiation (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10). I'm not sure why there would be any debate. The Bible teaches both.

God both covers our sins in justification (Romans 4:6-8) and then in sanctification He is able to wash them away (1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 John 1:7).)

We can talk about this more if you like. My only point was that the meaning of the atonement has been debated for centuries and so settling this question is not so simple as it may seem.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
That's basically an impossibility unless all biblical scholars are devoid of the Holy Spirit. Have you read every biblical scholar who has ever written a commentary? And, have you read every commentary ever written? Then you do not have any real basis to say that no biblical scholar has the same interpretation as I do. What if I told you that I am a biblical scholar? (I certainly read my own Bible extensively enough!)

Again, can you name one Biblical scholar who believes the Law of Moses applies to all mankind? I doubt it - just the one text from the end of Romans 3 basically proves that Paul, at least, believes the Law of Moses only applies to the Jew.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The law of Moses is not the law of God? Therefore, God did not give the law to Moses? I find that to be preposterous and unbiblical.

Again, for those who are under the law, the whole law applies (James 2:10, Galatians 3:10) and defines sin (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).For those who are not under the law (in Christ),..

You are making an assumption that cannot be squared with Biblical teaching. I agree that the believer (the person who is "in Christ") is not under the Law of Moses. But that does not mean that all people who are not "in Christ" are under the Law of Moses - the one does not follow logically from the other.

expos4ever · Jul 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I'm sorry I just don't see what you are saying in that scripture (and I tried to see it pretty hard). I think maybe you are reading something into the text that isn't there.

It is a little hard to believe that you do not understand what Paul is saying.

1. Paul starts by claiming that justification is not achieved through the Law of Moses;
2. He then "or is God the God of Jews only", and then says "no, God is the God of Gentiles also.

The logic is inescapable: if justification were by the Law of Moses, then only Jews could be saved and God would indeed be "God of Jews only". This statement only makes sense if Paul believes that only Jews are under the Law of Moses.

justbyfaith said:
Also, if the law of Moses applies only to Jews, then only Jews can be saved; since the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25).

No. Again your logic has a problem. The fact that the Law leads the Jew to Christ does not mean that a Gentile could not come to Christ unless that Gentile were under the Law - you assume that the only pathway for a human being to come to Christ is via the Law of Moses. I see nothing in scripture to support such a view.

It is frankly absurd to say that someone living in South America during Old Testament times was under the Law of Moses. How could such a person even know of the existence of the Law of Moses? And even if you are going to say they are made aware of it through divine revelation, how are they going to offer sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem, as the Law of Moses requires.

Once again: no Biblical scholar believes the Law of Moses applies to non-Jews! At most, one can argue that the general moral principles that undergird the Law of Moses are made known to all humanity by God. But the Law of Moses contains much more than moral principles - it prescribes, for example, that certain types of cloth cannot be mixed and that certain foods are unclean.

JLB777 · Jul 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
It is frankly absurd to say that someone living in South America during Old Testament times was under the Law of Moses.

No doubt.

The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Seed should come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

Abraham walked with God and kept His law, and commandments, 430 years before the law.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands;and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

Abraham was a Gentile; A syrian

JLB

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